Championing a Research Battle! (921)

[Pikachu52]

Still better than Pikachu spamming. Greninja will be gone by the end of the series as per marketing tradition and Pikachu will be back.

Pikachu spamming at least makes sense - He's Ash's closest partner and friend and by virtue of being alongside him for the entire series is logically the strongest. And the series mascot and most easily recognised icon of the Pokémon franchise. It's not really spamming - Ash has been with Pikachu the longest and works with him best so it makes sense he would use and win with Pikachu more. And it makes up for the fact that BW set Pikachu up to loose several times. Plus Pikachu has never been spammed in the way they're spamming Greninja - Greninja's getting it's own unique special power that doesn't exist in the games, has nearly beaten a champion's Pokémon, and looks like it won't get even one defeat in the Kalos league. Even the mighty Charizard who defeated an Articuno and fought Entei fell to Harrison's Blaziken, and Sceptile was swept from the Sinnoh league by a Mary sue's legendaries. No Pokémon has ever had the glory that's being given to Greninja.

Plus it's not guaranteed Ash won't take Greninja into the next series, assuming there is a S&M series with Ash - Charizard went with Ash to Johto and Amipom went to Sinnoh.

Of course I have a bias here. I like Pikachu spamming since Pikachu's my favourite Pokémon. Greninja's my least favourite starter. So I suppose fans of Greninja will like this plot line.

This is not the first time they haven't treated a Ash starter as a normal pokemon. Pikachu is from the start treated as unusual, and then there was Infernape and its freakishly powerful Blaze that its character arc was centered around. Greninja may be an escalation of that sort of thing, but its not unprecedented as a concept. Then we have things like Charizard and Sceptile defeating legendary pokemon, something normal members of their species could not hope to do.

Blaze appears in the games. Synchro evolution does not. That makes it nearly unprecedented. Charizard and Sceptile didn't start out beating legendaries until several series after their introduction. Greninja is almost winning against the champion after only three series of being with Ash. Plus legendary doesn't always mean powerful. In the games most legendaries are encounter at around level 50

And you say spread the victories evenly, but lets note that Infernape beat half of Paul's team.

The victories were spread fairly evenly in the Hoenn, Johto and Unova leagues. Plus act was only one battle - Infernape didn't dominate the league the way Greninja seems likely too.

Course in my view victories are less important than having a decent performance in a battle win or lose. And while the league certainly suffers from a lack of onscreen matches, what we do see has each member of Ash's team being shown as quite competent.

Even if they're being shown as competent Greninja's face is the one we're seeing more than anyone else, and it's Greninja who is having a suit of episodes in the build up to the league devoted to it.

 

[Holy157]

@Pikachu52

Do note that Greninja's screentime in the League isn't overwhelming. They have no need of showing him except for the two big battles. Except the first time, which was a complete waste of time for the viewers and only there to put Ash on a pedestal in comparison to most trainers.

Also, Greninja really only became op during the Alain rematch and onwards. Prior to that, Greninja was just strong.

 

[Akashin]

Blaze appears in the games. Synchro evolution does not. That makes it nearly unprecedented. Charizard and Sceptile didn't start out beating legendaries until several series after their introduction. Greninja is almost winning against the champion after only three series of being with Ash. Plus legendary doesn't always mean powerful. In the games most legendaries are encounter at around level 50

Putting aside the ongoing argument of whether or not Ash Greninja will eventually be supported by the games, no, Blaze as Infernape used it is not in the games. There's a difference between ordinary Blaze and Infernape's Blaze that the anime made blatantly clear, and only the former is in the games.

Ultimately, whether Ash Greninja is promotion for anything in Sun and Moon or not, the easiest answer to why Greninja is getting all of this is popularity. Which is nothing new for the anime.

 

[Pokegirl0102]

Can you people please not talk about future episodes, there are people like me who are ENGLISH DUB ONLY, so go discusss those future episodes in the spoilers section

 

[the1stpkmnfan]

Finally, after two months of slacking off from the show, I'm caught up.

I thought this episode was neat; was wondering when that wave of water would be broken out of. Thought Ash got really intense, props to his VA.

Seeing Diantha again was great, and had a lot of good moments. Love how she states to have responsibility in protecting Kalos.

 

[Soaring Pikachu]

Good battle, I am really liking the pre battle VS screen shots. Greninja spam is sort of funny when compared to how much less attention the rest of Ash's pokemon team gets but it is a ninja so I see this as forgivable. One could say that ever since the Fuschia gym, the series has been desperate for a proper ninja pokemon. Maybe they are trying to make up for lost time?

 

[Orton155]

They are really packing in the epic battles at the moment and this one was no exception. It's always great to see the champion but this time with an ulterior motive.

Even so the battle was great and Greninja's new 'form' was even better than the last. It looks more complete but it was Ash's inability to master it that is very frustrating. However, the potential was there to defeat Mega Gardevoir and that excites me for the league.

Anyway, great episode, onto the next one!

 

[Pikachu52]

Good battle, I am really liking the pre battle VS screen shots. Greninja spam is sort of funny when compared to how much less attention the rest of Ash's pokemon team gets but it is a ninja so I see this as forgivable. One could say that ever since the Fuschia gym, the series has been desperate for a proper ninja pokemon. Maybe they are trying to make up for lost time?

Greninja isn't a Ninja per se, it simply adopts the name, the Ninja Pokémon and does things that are typical of Ninja caricatures in cartoons and anime. In some ways it's a little cliché, given that representations of Ninja appear quite widely in anime and other popular culture (e.g. Naurto).

 

[AuraChannelerChris]

I have to agree that this Greninja really doesn't do enough ninja-esque moves. Ninjas are supposed to rely on stealth and attack from the shadows a lot. This one is just constantly clashing during plain daylight...

 

[GioRocket]

Holy moly!

I am seriously behind on my Pokemon and going into this episode without any spoilers or any kind of warning of what was about to happen... Wow. I was stunned.

That battle was incredible. For a long time watcher, where Champions and Elites have been put on an unreachable pedestal, to see Ash not only hold his own but almost win was amazing. And there is no doubt in my mind that he would have won if he couldn't been able to continue.

The whole intensity of the end of the match with Ash screaming and the close ups of his face were spellbinding to me, my heart was literally pounding. I can't remember the last time Pokémon made me feel like that.

This is definitely one of the highlights of XY to me.

 

[Alloutℯ]

The battle between Ash and Diantha was awesome! Ash have almost defeated Diantha until he and Greninja until they passed out at the end.

 

[LilligantLewis]

but yet lost to Paul's Elekid.

He tied.

CPIGSS

Where does Sunglasses Krookodile fall in? He never lost

Can you people please not talk about future episodes, there are people like me who are ENGLISH DUB ONLY, so go discusss those future episodes in the spoilers section

Agreed. I am the same

 

[Genaller]

Where does Sunglasses Krookodile fall in? He never lost

Ash's top 6 are GPICSS = Greninja, Peakachu, Infernape, Charizard, Sceptile, Snorlax (not necessarily in this order). Krookodile would Ash's #7 so adding him would give us GPICKSS.

Just for clarification; "Peakachu" means a Pikachu battling at peak strength and with all of his cumulative experience (since Pikachu's power tends to fluctuate a lot).

 

[345ash-greninja]

Without doubt this is the best feat displayed by any of Ash's Pokemon so far in the Anime! Elite Four members and Champions are portrayed to be invincible in the Anime and here Ash battled against a Champion's Mega Evolved Pokemon, went toe to toe with it, and overpowered it in the end. It also seemed like if he and Greninja didn't pass out in the end, they might have even won(but that's up to individual speculation). But yeah, what Ash and Ash-Greninja did was stunning and absolutely groundbreaking for the show! I just love this battle and watch this repeatedly and repeatedly!

 

[Mega Altaria]

The battle between Greninja and Gardevoir was pretty good although Greninja had trouble attacking Gardevoir in the beginning and once Greninja became Ash-Greninja, it seemed that it was going to win against Mega Gardevoir until Ash fainted and Greninja became exhausted. But at least it moved on the Zygarde plot with Diantha taking Olympia's prediction of a future disaster in Kalos and showing an image of Zygarde. Also showing the island that was consumed by the corrupted tree and Lysandre announcing that Team Flare will move onto their final stage of their mission also added a bit more variety to the episode too with moving on with the Zygarde plot.

 

[345ash-greninja]

The battle between Greninja and Gardevoir was pretty good although Greninja had trouble attacking Gardevoir in the beginning and once Greninja became Ash-Greninja, it seemed that it was going to win against Mega Gardevoir until Ash fainted and Greninja became exhausted. But at least it moved on the Zygarde plot with Diantha taking Olympia's prediction of a future disaster in Kalos and showing an image of Zygarde. Also showing the island that was consumed by the corrupted tree and Lysandre announcing that Team Flare will move onto their final stage of their mission also added a bit more variety to the episode too with moving on with the Zygarde plot.

You know the battle in this episode gives me a feeling that Ash is finally getting closer to prove to be a significant challenge for E4 Members and Champions if he ever gets a chance of entering a Champions League. Throughout the series Ash has been portrayed as a trainer far inferior to E4 members and Champions. everytime he faced an Elite Four Member in the past, he more or less got curbstomped. How many times he got curbstomped by E4 members beforehand? No one can forget the curbstomping Flint's Infernape handed over to Ash's Pokemon in DP, even though Pikachu held on for a while there he never notably damaged Flint's Infernape. I always was left thinking when finally Ash will show his worth and put up a valiant fight against an E4 level trianer.

And here? He battled a freaking Champion, and gave enough trouble to Gardevoir for Diantha to consider Mega Evolving it, and even after it Mega Evolved, he kept giving trouble to it, landing painful hits, and after Ash-Greninja reached its mastered form, he managed to sheerly overpower it, and send it flying screaming in pain. What a turnaround honestly this was from Ash previous battles against the Elite Four Members. People can say that Diantha wasn't completely going all-out, the purpose of her battle was to learn about Ash-Greninja, she was holding back, blah blah blah, but was she holding back any more than Flint or Bertha did against Ash? The answer simply is no. She was visibly pressurized enough to Mega Evolve, and was literally shocked to see how powerful Ash-Greninja was when it was giving trouble to Mega Gardevoir and Mega Gardevoir's last Shadow Ball attack was far more bigger than the ones she was using mid battle, and even that was overpowered by Ash-Greninja's Giant Water Shuriken.

There is literally visible proof of that:

So its evident that Diantha and Gardevoir were putting far more effort and power in the battle in the end, and still Ash and Gardevoir managed to overpower them, causing significant damage indicated by Gardevoir screaming in pain and bruises on its body. On screen, this is definitely the best performance put up by any Pokemon against a Champion's Pokemon in a trainer battle. Yet some people just tend to downplay this amazing performance by Ash and Greninja by saying that 'Diantha only wanted to learn about Ash-Greninja and its phenomenon, not to win the battle, therefore this battle shouldn't be taken too seriously', etc, etc, but this is literally visual proof in this battle that Diantha was putting far more serious effort and power in the battle than she was doing at the start. She wasn't going all-out or battling at battling at her best, but holding back by a massive margin? No way.

When I saw this battle+episode, I simply couldn't believe just what I was seeing and was literally in joy of tears seeing Ash performing this well against a freaking Champion. After seeing him so many times getting simply curbstomped by Elite Four members, I had simply lost hope that Ash can put up a valiant fight against any Elite Four member, let alome a Champion, so this episode was a really emotional moment for me. I have argued this battle so many times in the Anime Polls section about how much value this performance of Greninja should get, against the naysayers who try to downplay this performance by many ways, but my opinion still doesn't change, for the aforementioned reasons I have given so far. This performance of Greninja remains the best feat displayed by Ash's Pokemon in battles, in the Pokemon anime so far and gives Greninja the #1 status among Ash's Pokemon in terms of power for me.

 

[Mega Altaria]

You know the battle in this episode gives me a feeling that Ash is finally getting closer to prove to be a significant challenge for E4 Members and Champions if he ever gets a chance of entering a Champions League. Throughout the series Ash has been portrayed as a trainer far inferior to E4 members and Champions. everytime he faced an Elite Four Member in the past, he more or less got curbstomped. How many times he got curbstomped by E4 members beforehand? No one can forget the curbstomping Flint's Infernape handed over to Ash's Pokemon in DP, even though Pikachu held on for a while there he never notably damaged Flint's Infernape. I always was left thinking when finally Ash will show his worth and put up a valiant fight against an E4 level trianer.

And here? He battled a freaking Champion, and gave enough trouble to Gardevoir for Diantha to consider Mega Evolving it, and even after it Mega Evolved, he kept giving trouble to it, landing painful hits, and after Ash-Greninja reached its mastered form, he managed to sheerly overpower it, and send it flying screaming in pain. What a turnaround honestly this was from Ash previous battles against the Elite Four Members. People can say that Diantha wasn't completely all-out, the purpose of her battle was to learn about Ash-Greninja, she washolding back, blah blah blah, but was she holding back any more than Flint or Bertha did against Ash? The answer simply is no. She was visibly pressurized enough to Mega Evolve, and was literally shocked to see how powerful Ash-Greninja was when it was giving trouble to Mega Gardevoir and Mega Gardevoir's last Shadow Ball attack was far more bigger than the ones she was using mid battle, and even that was overpowered by Ash-Greninja's Giant Water Shuriken.

There is literally visible proof of that:

[IMG300]https://imgur.com/Sjk0W9O.gif[/IMG300] [IMG300]https://imgur.com/1s4FCKA.gif[/IMG300]

So its evident that Diantha and Gardevoir were putting far more effort and power it the battle in the end, and still Ash and Gardevoir managed to overpower them, causing significant damage indicated by Gardevoir screaming in pain and bruises on its body. On screen, this is definitely the best performance put up by any Pokemon against a Champion's Pokemon in a trainer battle. Yet some people just tend to downplay this amazing performance by Ash and Greninja by saying that 'Diantha only wanted to learn about Ash-Greninja and its phenomenon, not to win the battle, therefore this battle shouldn't be taken too seriously', etc, etc, but this is literally visual proof in this battle that Diantha was putting far more serious effort and power in the battle than she was doing at the start. She wasn't going all-out or battling at battling at her best, but holding back by a massive margin? No way.

When I saw this battle+episode, I simply couldn't believe just what I was seeing and was literally in joy of tears seeing Ash performing this well against a freaking Champion. After seeing him so many times getting simply curbstomped by Elite Four members, I had simply lost hope that Ash can put up a valiant fight against any Elite Four member, let alome a Champion, so this episode was a really emotional moment for me. I have argued this battle so many times in the Anime Polls section about how much value this performance of Greninja should get, against the naysayers who try to downplay this performance by many ways, but my opinion still doesn't change, for the aforementioned reasons I have given so far. This performance of Greninja remains the best feat displayed by Ash's Pokemon in battles, in the Pokemon anime so far and gives Greninja the #1 status among Ash's Pokemon in terms of power for me.

Well the reason I think people keep on downplaying this is because of the hype around Ash-Greninja back then and after losing sync with Ash during the battle with Mega Charizard X, people were expecting Ash to better utilise the bond phenomenon and score a win against Mega Gardevoir so that it could build up the hype further to the League and expect Ash to win the League.

 

[345ash-greninja]

Well the reason I think people keep on downplaying this is because of the hype around Ash-Greninja back then and after losing to Sceptile and losing sync with Ash during the battle with Mega Charizard X, people were expecting Ash to better utilise the bond phenomenon and score a win against Mega Gardevoir so that it could build up the hype further to the League and expect Ash to win the League.

I get it, but against Sawyer's Sceptile Ash couldn't activate the transformation, because he was trying to force the transformation instead of trying to sync properly, against Wulfric's Avulugg Ash was getting too obsessed with power and not prioritizing his bond and sync, clearly having mental issues, which was the reason for Ash-Greninja getting weaker in that battle(since Ash-Greninja's strength is definitely proportionate to how much synced they are in body and mind, which they weren't in that battle). So in these cases the reasons are clearly known/evident. After Ash finally fully mastered Ash-Greninja in the Winding Woods episode, its performances/wins afterwards obviously says that these losses were definitely due to Ash not completely mastering the Ash-Greninja form and becoming obsessed with power at that point of time.

I understand people's salt for Ash loosing the League, and why Ash-Greninja couldn't bring down Alain's Mega Charizard X after performing so well against the Champion's Mega Gardevoir, but one shouldn't forget how much of a monster Alain's Mega Charizard X was. That thing only lost once in the entire anime, against Siebold's Mega Blastoise. After that it kept getting stronger and stronger, defeated Malva's Mega Houndoom(becoming the only Pokemon to defeat an Elite 4 ace Pokemon on screen) along with 9 other Mega Evolution trainers, swept the Kalos League almost single handedly, effortlessly wrecking many Mega evolved Pokemon. Not to mention Alain's increasing motivation to get stronger meant that Mega Charizard X was quite a bit more stronger is the Kalos League compared to when it faced Malva's Mega Houndoom on-screen. Honestly, Mega Charizard X is the strongest non-Champion Pokemon we have ever seen in this anime. So Ash-Greninja's loss to Mega Charizard X wasn't too surprising, especially after a valiant fight, and IMO it goes well with this performance of it against Mega Gardevoir.

 

[Mega Altaria]

I get it, but against Sawyer's Sceptile Ash couldn't activate the transformation, because he was trying to force the transformation instead of trying to sync properly, against Wulfric's Avulugg Ash was getting too obsessed with power and not prioritizing his bond and sync, clearly having mental issues, which was the reason for Ash-Greninja getting weaker in that battle(since Ash-Greninja's strength is definitely proportionate to how much synced they are in body and mind, which they weren't in that battle). So in these cases the reasons are clearly known/evident. After Ash finally fully mastered Ash-Greninja in the Winding Woods episode, its performances/wins afterwards obviously says that these losses were definitely due to Ash not completely mastering the Ash-Greninja form and becoming obsessed with power at that point of time.

I understand people's salt for Ash loosing the League, and why Ash-Greninja couldn't bring down Alain's Mega Charizard X after performing so well against the Champion's Mega Gardevoir, but one shouldn't forget how much of a monster Alain's Mega Charizard X was. That thing only lost once in the entire anime, against Siebold's Mega Blastoise. After that it kept getting stronger and stronger, defeated Malva's Mega Houndoom(becoming the only Pokemon to defeat an Elite 4 ace Pokemon on screen) along with 9 other Mega Evolution trainers, swept the Kalos League almost single handedly, effortlessly wrecking many Mega evolved Pokemon. Not to mention Alain's increasing motivation to get stronger meant that Mega Charizard X was quite a bit bore stronger is the Kalos League compared to when it faced Malva's Mega Houndoom on-screen. Honestly, Mega Charizard X is the strongest non-Champion Pokemon we have ever seen in this anime. So Ash-Greninja's loss to Mega Charizard X wasn't too surprising, especially after a valiant fight, and IMO it goes well with this performance of it against Mega Gardevoir.

But with the Wulfric battle, the Sawyer battle and the Kalos League final, these happened later at the time the first summaries of this episode came out and even by the airing date so we had no idea if Ash was going to win or lose these battles or who his League opponents were going to be. But all I have to say is this episode is indeed a climax point of Ash-Greninja given that it powered its way through Diantha's Gardevoir which did exhibit excellent battling ability and trying its best to defeat Greninja, which it was close to after the shock waves of a Moonblast landed severe damage on Greninja after it dodged it.

 

[Leonhart]

I wasn't fond of the way that Satoshi versus Carnet was a one-on-one match only, because I wanted to see more of Carnet's team. What made up for that was seeing Gekkouga versus Sirnight, which was intense. I was amazed by Sirnight's resilience in particular.