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Changes in the EV System.

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OK. Some topic in General Pokémon Discussion brought this to my attention, and I felt it'd be interesting to discuss.

Most of you are aware that the EV system suffered a significant rehash in the 3rd Generation. Back in the days, there was no limit on the total EVs a Pokémon could have. In the current Gen, a limit of 510 points total per Pokémon was established. There are many sides in this change, but I must say it was for the better. But I'm not here to discuss the new system's pros or cons. I'm starting this to see people's opinions on how this system should change in Diamond/Pearl to make it more balanced, and more user-friendly.

First off, and most importantly, I feel the 510 cap is not enough. There's a simple reason: it favors offensive strategies. And it also screws mixed offensives/defensives. Now, it surely makes it so certain Pokémon end up with several lower Stats so underdog Pokémon can stand up to them with moderated success. However, it makes the overall strategy pool rather one-sided. And I feel that variety should be addressed in a higher degree. For this effect, I think the EV Cap should be raised to 765. That's the magic number, as I see it. It allows 3 maxed Stats out of 6, and it also allows halved spreads on all 6 Stats, as oppossed to only 4. With this, mixed attackers and defenders would resurge, which would allow more diversity and more chances for defensive spreads. Though maybe it'd allow the stronger Pokémon to dominate even more. Maybe an increase to 2 and a half maxed Stats (637 Points per Pokémon.) would work better...

Now, about the system's affinity with the average player... this needs major fixing. Fact is, EV Training can get tedious after time. Also, most average players find it to be a big chore than anything else. Others don't even know what the hell EVs are. There are ways to fix this, though. I'd suggest an increase in the Vitamin cap. 100 points just isn't enough to start off, and asks for tedious battles. Increasing this cap to 15 or 20 Vitamins per Stat would reduce the EV Training time to an estrict minimum, which would greatly help most casual players. I believe this is the most needed change after the next one.

Let's face it: this game keeps too many things in secret. Things that'd be so useful to have, at the very least, a rough knowledge of. The old man that tells you a rough summary of your Pokémon's IVs is a start, but more stuff like this needs to be done. Especially with EVs. I'd recommend that EVs should be visible. Add an EV gauge to each Stat, which would give you a rough idea on how much EVs a Stat has. It'd also help when using EV-reducing Berries, Vitamins, and your EV Training over time. This is the most factible and helpful modification... but I doubt Nintendo is eager to make this so well-known or easy to take track of (Why? Don't ask...).

If that weren't possible, I'd say that there should be another person or a group of Trainers that'd give you more elaborated hints regarding EVs. Say, one would tell you to name a Pokémon in your Pokédex. The word bank would then appear. You choose a Pokémon, and the person would give you tidbits about which EVs that Pokémon increases. Say, if you show him a Raichu, he'd say: "Raichu, eh? This Pokémon is good if you want to improve your Pokémon's Speed!". Things to that effect.

Another one would give you a rough idea of how much EVs a Stat has. He'd say something like "This Stat isn't trained at all..."; "It seems this Stat has reached a small increase."; "Seems your Pokémon is halfway in this Stat."; "Wow! This Stat is very well trained." and "Excellent! This Stat has grown to its highest point!". Things to that effect. While it'd be less efficient than having a gauge, it'd help players a wee bit...

I know all this can be implemented. And no... an increase in the EV Cap wouldn't screw compatibility betwen 3rd Gen and 4th Gen games. The system is the same. The only change is that there are more points you can add. The only conflict would be the Ribbon you obtained in a 3rd Gen game, but that's rather aesthetical and can be done already (Use an EV Reducing Berry on a fully-Trainer Pokémon, and the Ribbon remains anyway.). Still, maybe the change would upset players that worked hard to train their Pokémon in the 3rd Gen games (Not really... or so I like to think.). I do believe the increase of the Vitamin Cap and a wider knowledge of EVs is needed (Be with a gauge or with nifty hints... though the gauge would be MUCH better...).

What are your views on this? This thread is open for discussion and ideas. You can also debate if they should return to the old way, but I'd prefer you didn't. They changed it for a reason. A good one at that. And I doubt it'll be dropped one Gen later just like that...

Discuss...
 

PDL

disenchanted
the only problem with 3rd-4th generation compatabtily is that lvl 100 pokemon from the 3rd generation games wouldn't be able to gain anymore EV points since their EXP points have been completely maxed out...

although you technically could EV train lvl 100 pokemon in Ruby and Sapphire, but that was apparently "fixed" in Emerald :rolleyes: (not sure about FR/LG though)

maybe this limitation would be eliminated in the 4th-gen games?

or maybe getting rid of the EV/IV system entirely and having to work with simpler stats... although that probably isn't going to happen...
 

Wolf Goddess

~Lupo Di Autunno~
Since you covered this pretty well *Orion*, I really don't have much to add, aside from what PDL said; it could pose a problem with the backwards compatibility. I do love the idea, however.
 
T

Talo!

Guest
Great idea. Being able to max 3 stats should cause a massive increase in the number of mixed sweepers on NB that should make walling one attack stat much harder. But NB would become a lot more defencively orientated and pokemon like sleep talk zapdos would be invincable.
 

Eszett

one love
I'm pretty sure that the file format of the 3rd gen games can store 255 EVs in each stat; it's just that the game's programming does some sort of IF function when adding an EV to a stat to effectively block this out. The only change that would needed to be made for *Orion*'s idea to work (which was brilliantly explained; kudos to him) is to increase the limit in this line of code. So while it may read as
Code:
IF (TotalEvCount + 1) > 510 THEN //blah blah blah stop adding EVs
in the code, simply make that 510 a 765/637/what-have-you and you have made the Pokemon in the game stronger by just that much.

But Nintendo won't do this because apparently EVs have to remain esoteric and mysterious. ;[
 
E

Eeveelution

Guest
Umm just a thought, but isn't Pearl and Diamond compadible with the 3rd Gen games so wouldn't that mean they can't change it, otherwise we would have that problem with the second gen and the first gen games.

I was just thinking, but i guess it would be good to have indicators next to the stats to let us know about how the pokemons evs are, but in relevation to being realistic how would you be able to see a Pokemons Evs, it makes sence with the attack and the other 5 stats because in the end you could put forward that the pokedex would analyze your pokemon and give details or maybe though some other way.

anyway talk later.
 

Pokemaníaco Desesperado

Normal Coordinator
There's no problem with 3rd gen., using cheating devices, you can give 255 EV to all stats, problem is that colosseum and XD won't accept them if the total is bigger than 510.
I really like all those ideas, Orion (though I'd preffer the old system, but that's just me x)). There should also be IV counters.
 

DarkSpectrum

Shadow Amongst Light
the reason the first and 2nd gen games weren't compatible with the 3rd gen games was because the game link cable couldn't handle the trades (LOL at such a simple hinderance).

Anyways, I don't think I'd prefer much of an increase in ev's.
It might bring about too many people tryin to raise "the perfect stat'd pokemon". Keeping it as it is would allow for many different versions of the same pokemon, just for an example, a swampert that u could work on having a higher attack/sp attk or one with a high def/sp def spread (just an example that came from the top opf my head so no need to try and call it a dumb example)
 

PDL

disenchanted
the reason the first and 2nd gen games weren't compatible with the 3rd gen games was because the game link cable couldn't handle the trades (LOL at such a simple hinderance).

LOL at you forgetting about the IV range...

in the GB/GBC games, the IV range was from 0-15 while in the GBA games, the IV range was from 0-31...

and you also forgot that GBA games are 16bit technology while GB/GBC games are only 8bit... hence why you can't play GBA games on a GB :p

while it's possble for 8bit data to exist in a 16bit enviroment, it's impossble for 16bit data to exist in the 8bit enviroment (even if it is a lvl 2 pidgey from Fire Red)

EDIT: I forgot, another thing about the current EV system is that the way they're gained tends to favour sweepers over tanks, annoyers, stallers and other defensive stradgeies... if there was a way for defensive pokemon to gain EVs without the difficulty of battling alot of pokemon, then it would be great.
 
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I would love it if tanks became more popular. A good way to do that is with EVs or to change the damage calculating formula (I think I will mess about with spreadsheets and see what formulas would work best...)
 
Thanks for your input, people. :D

Again... increasing the EV limit won't screw compatibility. It's just a measly variant change, as Eszett pointed out. Plus, if it's going to be compatible, there won't be any significant change in the actual data. The only problem I can see is that it could allow illegal Pokémon in the 3rd Gen realm, or screw the backwards trading to 3rd Gen games. I bet it'd make it a bit too complicated, and should be better left off untouched, now that I think about it...

Still, more info and a less-excruciating system should be made. Another idea that just occured to me was to add in another Day Care of sorts, but that would be used to train a Pokémon in certain Stat. Could be a bit more expensive, or take more steps for completion... but would be a welcome help.

Keep discussing if you may. :D
 

guiltysparkzz

AKA mattgcn
Perhaps EV's don't only have to be given with offensive tactics...Defensive tactics have a great oppurtunity for EV's..

Perhaps making a turn formula for getting EV's rather than on defeat? However, this would increase the use of stalling for training, and would probably just nuke the sweepers.
 

Pokemaníaco Desesperado

Normal Coordinator
*Orion* said:
Thanks for your input, people. :D

Again... increasing the EV limit won't screw compatibility. It's just a measly variant change, as Eszett pointed out. Plus, if it's going to be compatible, there won't be any significant change in the actual data. The only problem I can see is that it could allow illegal Pokémon in the 3rd Gen realm, or screw the backwards trading to 3rd Gen games. I bet it'd make it a bit too complicated, and should be better left off untouched, now that I think about it...

Still, more info and a less-excruciating system should be made. Another idea that just occured to me was to add in another Day Care of sorts, but that would be used to train a Pokémon in certain Stat. Could be a bit more expensive, or take more steps for completion... but would be a welcome help.

Keep discussing if you may. :D
Well, if you try to trade a pokemon with more than 510 EV, they could say "This POKéMON is too strong, you should weaken it." Anyways, the only problems are with colosseum and XD.
 
P

PunxHaven

Guest
*Orion* said:
First off, and most importantly, I feel the 510 cap is not enough.

I'd suggest an increase in the Vitamin cap. 100 points just isn't enough to start off, and asks for tedious battles.

Let's face it: this game keeps too many things in secret. Things that'd be so useful to have, at the very least, a rough knowledge of.

I know all this can be implemented. And no... an increase in the EV Cap wouldn't screw compatibility betwen 3rd Gen and 4th Gen games. The system is the same. The only change is that there are more points you can add. Discuss...

510 is plenty enough, and raising the EV roof would only serve the purpose of continuing to overpower Pokemon. Though EVs favor weaker Pokemon over the stronger (think of it proportionally), allowing for the bumping of multiple stats will create a situation where every Pokemon bumps both defenses and one of the attacks. You would definitely see more focus on defense - as compared to what is seen currently - but that's not necessarily a good thing. It's one thing to achieve balance, it's another to tip the scales from one side to another.

Raising the vitamin cap is just taking the legwork out of EV training. Screw that. If you want premium stats, pay for them in hard work and time. They're called EFFORT stats for a reason.

Game developers LOVE keeping things secret. They love stashing items in plants, Mews under trucks, and stats in unseen places. EVs were not meant to be known to the public. They are now, for the most part, but that's not because of any developer's wish. If we take every puzzle and hidden element of the games out, they wouldn't be any fun to play.

And though raising the EV cap wouldn't anihilate compatibility between gens 3 and 4, it would prevent backwards trading (in the same way that putting Steel Wing on Pidgeot prevented him from being traded to Blue).

I think a few changes are needed to the EV system, but none that have been mentioned here. First and foremost, I'd like to see the whole system fade back into the shadows and out of the public eye. When raising Pokemon feels like work, you've officially sucked all of the fun from the game.
 
PunxHaven said:
510 is plenty enough, and raising the EV roof would only serve the purpose of continuing to overpower Pokemon. Though EVs favor weaker Pokemon over the stronger (think of it proportionally), allowing for the bumping of multiple stats will create a situation where every Pokemon bumps both defenses and one of the attacks. You would definitely see more focus on defense - as compared to what is seen currently - but that's not necessarily a good thing. It's one thing to achieve balance, it's another to tip the scales from one side to another.
That's why I suggested either a 3 Max Stats or 2 and a half Stats for a suggested new EV cap. I know it could allow unbalance as well. HOWEVER, it's MUCH better to have a rather spread cap where more than a few roles are usable, as opposed to having Sweepers dominate everything for the awkward way the system was developed. It allows the best balance. Not limitless as in GSC (Where Defense DID dominate.), and capable of balanced spreads. I can see mixed sweepers, tanks and more resurging. If the system is used to favor something by the "competitive" bunch, their fault. They've been doing that for 3 Generations nonstop anyway. It's not as if ALL Metagames in the world depend on them (Though they probably will if Diamond/Pearl are Wireless-capable... unless Nintendo devises a way to keep such bigots at line.). Plus, lack of balance and variety in Pokémon is an everyday thing. Why not to try to balance it at the very least, and to the best of their ability?

Game developers LOVE keeping things secret. They love stashing items in plants, Mews under trucks, and stats in unseen places. EVs were not meant to be known to the public. They are now, for the most part, but that's not because of any developer's wish. If we take every puzzle and hidden element of the games out, they wouldn't be any fun to play.
And I guess it's very fun to have sub-par Pokémon every time, eh? Not that in-game play is any challenge, but when you get into a more competitive realm, newbies need help. And how's the EV system a puzzle? Plus, having it all hidden when all of a sudden a MAJOR change strikes is just stupid and not user-friendly at all. The in-game fun resides in the quest, while the multiplayer fun resides in training. I can't see how it can be fun to battle a bunch of newbs with randomly trained Pokémon. And I can't see how it can be fun to be there, counting each point your Pokémon gets either...

And though raising the EV cap wouldn't anihilate compatibility between gens 3 and 4, it would prevent backwards trading (in the same way that putting Steel Wing on Pidgeot prevented him from being traded to Blue).
Um... I pointed that already. Read the entire thread... :rolleyes:

Raising the vitamin cap is just taking the legwork out of EV training. Screw that. If you want premium stats, pay for them in hard work and time. They're called EFFORT stats for a reason.

I think a few changes are needed to the EV system, but none that have been mentioned here. First and foremost, I'd like to see the whole system fade back into the shadows and out of the public eye. When raising Pokemon feels like work, you've officially sucked all of the fun from the game.
Contradictory much? You say it's good to keep the Vitamin cap as is, and then you say that when training is a chore, you've taken the fun off the game? Make a choice please...

And if you think my ideas aren't good, then suggest yours. I didn't say my ideas were the say all, end all. I also doubt any change will be implemented either, for Nintendo is stupid like that. You're looking at it from a Nintendo standpoint, which is good, and probably right. But there's always room for improvement. Room that Nintendo won't find in their current traditionalism... ever.

Pokemaníaco Desesperado said:
Well, if you try to trade a pokemon with more than 510 EV, they could say "This POKéMON is too strong, you should weaken it." Anyways, the only problems are with colosseum and XD.
You're right. Then I think there wouldn't be much of a problem. :D
 

Dunsparce

Well-Known Member
PunxHaven said:
Game developers LOVE keeping things secret. They love stashing items in plants, Mews under trucks, and stats in unseen places. EVs were not meant to be known to the public. They are now, for the most part, but that's not because of any developer's wish. If we take every puzzle and hidden element of the games out, they wouldn't be any fun to play.


Off Topic:
*ahem*

That was just a damn rumor. RUMOR! R-U-M-O-R!!!
I can't believe people still talk about it like it's true @_@

It's not even in the coding!!!

On Topic:
IMO, They should just keep the system the way it is except the vitamin cap u_u
 
P

PunxHaven

Guest
*Orion* said:
Contradictory much? You say it's good to keep the Vitamin cap as is, and then you say that when training is a chore, you've taken the fun off the game? Make a choice please...

I need to run to work, so I have limited time to respond, but...
If the vitamin cap was raised, then I probably would use them. I'd be stupid not to. I won't EV train my Pokemon, though, because I don't care THAT much about having the absolute nuts for stats - that same time could be doing something a lot more fun. Though I personally feel that training endlessly for the perfect EV set is a chore I'm not willing to perform, a lot of the players that are heavily into the multiplayer scene are more than happy to do it. Is it a chore for me? Yes. So will I do it? No. But that's not to be taken out of context and made into the generalization that no one should put in the work. However, if you're going to do it, do it right. Don't try and find a well-beaten path to the end result. If you're going to do it, then put in the work to do it.

It really seems the things players call for most are short cuts. I don't get it.
 

Wolf Goddess

~Lupo Di Autunno~
He's not saying make it possible to use Vitamins entirely - you'd still have to do at least some EV training.
 

MetalMario

< It's Passion Pink!
No. Leave it be.

Firefox deleted a big post of mine explaining my opinion so I'm pi$$ed.

They should let you effort train at L100 again, as in G/S/C.
 

Zora

perpetually tired
Should stay the same

First off, back compatility is the reason it is a no. Second, this, in my opinion, seems like another "EV's are too hard" thread. I am being honest, but it is fine the way it is. ANd they put Natures in instead, which balances it all, so its all good.
 
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