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Changes to 4th Gen Competitive Battling NO GARCHOMP DISCUSSION!

Black Murder Heavangleon said:
I don't really know. 12.5 Critical hit Ratio + 80%Accuracy = Not gonna happen. Alot. =D
Agreed =D
Yonowaru in Chaos said:
If anything, paralysis is the only factor between Garchomp and Salamence, but IMO, if Garchomp's going to Uber, Salamence should be put in to consideration as well. I'd doubt the entire OU environment would change when Garchomp's been banned
That might be a tad drastic though. Banning two dragons from OU? I suppose all the Garchomp we see around the place would just magically turn into Salamence...
Yonowaru in Chaos said:
Dragonite is out of the question with its speed, so I think the only competition is between Salamence and Garchomp. And of course, Garchomp gets Thunder Wave immunity! Oh yeah, and Salamence has less Speed than Garchomp by 4 points. yet has 1 more Attack than Garchomp. Salamence also has a very viable Sp. Attack and now, Heat Wave as opposed to Flamethrower (it's only 5 points, but hey, we're already being pedantic about 1 measly Attack point) as a tutorable move.
Pokemon seems to be a very pedantic game in general =p But I suppose 5 measly power could be the difference sometimes...
 

Yoshifan22

not a fan?
Garchomp's sand veil broke him..
He was meant to be uber..
 

Machiki

Machiki In Teh House
Well, I do admit myself that Sand Veil is something too much on Garchomp, which can drastically turn around games.
Eg:
You are about to win but Chomp comes in and sweeps half your team. You find out that it has a Life Orb not a Yache Berry. You switch in Weavile...
Ice Punch misses. And because Sand Veil works in Sand, there goes your sash.
 
Machiki said:
You are about to win but Chomp comes in and sweeps half your team. You find out that it has a Life Orb not a Yache Berry. You switch in Weavile...
Ice Punch misses. And because Sand Veil works in Sand, there goes your sash.
Pure haxness. Gotta hate it.
 

randomspot555

Well-Known Member
-We've battled with Garchomp in standard play for a long time right now, and it has been countered. Even the most skilled players who use Garchomp have been defeated by people who didn't use it. If you've seen Marriland's Youtube videos, you can see a skilled 20 year old geek who uses Garchomp has been owned by Disfunction and Flashfox, both who haven't used Garchomp. Garchomp has been a part of standard play for a long time, and its gay to just move it to ubers right now. Why wasn't it moved to ubers in the first 6 months of Diamond and Pearl competitive Wifi battling? Why does it have to be moved NOW? If Garchomp has the potential to be uber, they should have moved it a long time ago, so that when it moves to ubers, people don't have to modify their teams to satisfy the rules

Making up rules such as "It can't be done because it's been in OU for so long" makes it harder for the metagame to evolve. As the game progresses, new items, move combos, and so on are explored. This made up rule of yours basically means no changes to the metagame can ever, ever happen.

You also mention that it has been countered, but didn't name a single counter.

-Garchomp may seem to powerful to some people in the standard metagame (which it is not!) but it is too weak for ubers! Lugia can wall it, and a whole bunch of Pokemon in Ubers can outspeed it and kill it. Garchomp is like a weakened Arceus

I'm going to guess you aren't a competitive battler, because this is a complete misunderstanding of what ubers are.

Ubers are determined by if they overcentralize the metagame. They ARE NOT determined if they can beat other ubers.

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but considering 99.9% of GPD's population aren't competitive battlers, let me say this: You don't battle competitively, so this won't affect you at all.

People say it should be uber but a simple starmie can kill it with ice beam. In my battles i still let people use it against me. Garchomp is not a uber in my opinion.

Then the people you battle with suck.

1. Yache Berry.
2. Sand Veil=20% chance of missing.
3. Starmie can be bulky, but it can't take a ton of hits, especially if there's SR and sand storm up.
 
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Yonowaru in Chaos

gaspard de la nuit
As I said, Sand Veil's not the most definitive point of Garchomp's ban, if it was, Froslass, Mamoswine, Gliscor and Cacturne would sure have been critically acclaimed for it (then again, most of those lack the destructive power of Garchomp).

You also mention that it has been countered, but didn't name a single counter.

So, does that mean that Garchomp is, by far, the most uncounterable pokemon in all of OU (now Uber)?

How does that compare with Salamence?
 

embargo

through the loop.
Salamence is losing 1/4 of it's HP everytime it's switching in, Garchomp is losing, what, 6.25% is it?
Not to mention the overall better defences, faster speed, and its prolonged life due to sandstorm immunity.

That base 102 speed really counts for something, and the simple fact is that STAB Dragon and Ground from 130 attack is much harder to cope with than STAB Dragon and Flying.
 

RedZone

Underdog
I want to dispel a few points people use to back up Garchomp as non-Uber.

1. It can be countered
EVERYTHING can be countered. Lugia can be countered. Manaphy can be countered. Mewtwo can be countered. Just because something can be countered doesn't automatically make it non-Uber. The reason it's Uber now is because if it isn't, every team HAS to have some way to counter it. That restricts teams, often by an entire Pokemon. With Garchomp out, people are free to be more creative with teams, they have more options. I don't understand how someone could see that as a bad thing.

2. It's not good enough for Uber
Uber is, first and foremost, a ban list for OU/Standard. Sure, some people make a metagame out of it, but the metagame of competitive battling is OU/Standard, and other metagames can't get in the way of making it as balanced as possible. This point has been addressed well so far anyway.

3. Salamence should be Uber too
Salamence is very different to Garchomp. Salamence can be TWaved. Salamence has another weakness - Rock. Which happens to be a rather common offensive type. Salamence is less bulky - in base, 15 less DEF, 5 less Sp.DEF, 7 less HP. Salamence doesn't have a 20% gamebreaking chance attached to it in an easy to set up, common weather. Salamence is slower - not by much, but it only speedties the large base 100 SPD tier, whilst Garchomp outspeeds that entire SPD tier. Salamence takes 1/4 HP from Stealth Rock, which is VERY common, compared to Garchomp's 1/16. Salamence doesn't have STAB EQ to back up STAB Dragon moves.
 
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Profesco

gone gently
The arguments made for Garchomp moving into the Uber tier are (I really hate to say it) reasonable. I'd have to guess it's the extra 2 points in speed and the way Garchomp doesn't stumble on today's common hazards that are just enough to tip it over the threshold of OU. Such a pity, too, as having to counter it isn't that big a problem anyway.
 

Yonowaru in Chaos

gaspard de la nuit
Totally forgot about Stealth Rock, my bad.

The reason it's Uber now is because if it isn't, every team HAS to have some way to counter it. That restricts teams, often by an entire Pokemon. With Garchomp out, people are free to be more creative with teams, they have more options. I don't understand how someone could see that as a bad thing.

I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, but I'm not rejoicing either. It's just that I saw no point in doing so. Anyway, I guess it can be seen as a reasonably good point that it restricts team building, and I totally agree, but would we see a change after Garchomp's departure from OU?
 

Profesco

gone gently
Wait a second. Doesn't every team have to have a way to counter Gengar? Or Jirachi? Or Salamence? Or Blissey? Or Lucario? I don't think 'team restriction' is a really big factor with Garchomp...
 

Yonowaru in Chaos

gaspard de la nuit
^^ My point, more or less.

Most teams probably pack anti-Dragon moves/strategies, Garchomp just seems to be the leader of the cause, harder to eradicate, but if you can destroy his 'minions', then it wouldn't be impossible to destroy the big boy himself.

e.g. if you have an Ice-type move, yes you can probably OHKO all Dragon-types weak to it without external influence (Yache). Take away Garchomp and you'll still need those moves to kill the other Dragons.

We're not going to see a down-flux of Ice-type moves without Garchomp, though perhaps less Bronzongs around.
 

UltimoVenusaur

DracoFist FTW
To me, it boils down to a decision.

If you think Garchomp should be über, then play on Smogon's Shoddy server and continue to do so.

If not, then play on the main server or, *gasp* fire up Wi-Fi on your DS. It's not that hard. The tier system isn't hard and fast unless you have a way of making it such. Until NoA makes Garchomp illegal to use over Wi-Fi... there's no reason getting up in arms about the ban to übers.
 

randomspot555

Well-Known Member
The arguments made for Garchomp moving into the Uber tier are (I really hate to say it) reasonable. I'd have to guess it's the extra 2 points in speed and the way Garchomp doesn't stumble on today's common hazards that are just enough to tip it over the threshold of OU. Such a pity, too, as having to counter it isn't that big a problem anyway.

Having something to counter the various dragons is not a problem, that is true. Every team should be able to do something against them. But when you need to have a counter for one specific Pokemon, it's overcentralization.


A number of (more experienced than I) team builders that I've seen post (not on here, as I didn't really read the RMT threads before Chomp's uber status) explained that their teams, in an OU environment, generally need 2-3 Pokes to counter Chomp.

Chomp is on it's own tier, being all but immune from paralysis (I think Tri Attack could do it), it's great base stats, only one weakness (which is reduced for one turn due to the berry), and then it's ability which can even keep it from being revenge killed. And unfortunately, the only steel type that can really do anything is Heatran or Metagross, who are both weak to Earthquake. Bronzong can stall around for a while, but can't really bring it down by itself.

Wait a second. Doesn't every team have to have a way to counter Gengar? Or Jirachi? Or Salamence? Or Blissey? Or Lucario? I don't think 'team restriction' is a really big factor with Garchomp...

I don't know if team's will necessarily become more diverse, but from some brief readings of the Smogon boards, I've seen more rise in stuff like offensive Starmie and Heatran. I'd say there'll be some shifts in the team, but probably move sets will happen that weren't too viable with Chomp.

As for the coutners of those OU Pokes: Yes, but your team doesn't have to have a specific counter for any of them. Blissey is completely crippled by any STAB physical attack, and probably OHKO if it's boosted. Salamence has already been pretty well covered, but can you honestly think of many teams who don't have an option to status a Poke? Gengar and Jirachi both share Ghost weakness, and Lucario and Gengar share a psychic weakness. Lucario is weak to...well, a lot, including the very common fighting. So while you do need counters for them, you don't need specific ones, and they can be applied to other Pokes.

I'm sure you've read the two Chomp threads in the 4th gen sub-forums. There were some viable counters posted. The problem with those counters was their only purpose was to take down Chomp. They were either useless otherwise or would be dead by the time their job was done.

And apparently, all the Pokes that were carrying HP Ice are now switching to other x4 weaknesses, such as HP ground and HP grass.

We're not going to see a down-flux of Ice-type moves without Garchomp, though perhaps less Bronzongs around.

I think we might see Pokes ditching some HP and Ice Fangs for other moves, since Chomp won't be a threat any more. Aerodactyl, for example, can use his STAB Rock attack for Salamence, Dragonite, and all the flyers.

lol thats a lot of words on pokemon.

If not, then play on the main server or, *gasp* fire up Wi-Fi on your DS. It's not that hard. The tier system isn't hard and fast unless you have a way of making it such. Until NoA makes Garchomp illegal to use over Wi-Fi... there's no reason getting up in arms about the ban to übers.

As I said, if you're a competitive battler, you probably understand the move to uber. Even then, you can (specify) differences in a standard rules match that you want/don't want to follow (or even, I know this is weird, play in ubers. It's quite a...unique experience). And if you're only playing for fun, it won't affect you at all.

NoA will never have a tier list. There is a banned tier in the Battle Tower, and the official Pokemon tournaments, but that's about it.
 
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wants_latios_lots

I miss you Maddie <3
This has gone on for a while, and it'll continue after me, but I like to think of him as in the Limbo category, which is currently vacant, I believe. It's a special, magical place, much like the Island of Misfit Toys, where Pokemon, who can't fit in anywhere else, go. There, they live all alone with the other Limbomon, having impossible stall wars and the like. The tier is frequently inhabited by Wobbuffet, and this is where I like to place Garchomp in my mind.

Basically, BL: OU/UU :: Limbo : OU/Uber. 'S the way I see it.

You can make counters for him, but in almost every instance, you'll lose a Pokemon or have one or many of them crippled to the point of being unusable. Stun Spore and Hypnosis don't work very well because there's the inevitable activation of sand veil, which lowers those moves' accuracy to 'LOLWTF" status.
The main thing about Garchomp in my eyes is the almost automatic addition of a 20% evasion increase due to Sand Veil. It's the same logic behind why Double Team is usually banned.
It turns the game into a coin toss, and it's just not fair when your opponent's coin is double-sided. And lined with razors.
 
Changes to Competitive Battling

Recently we have seen some rather large changes to the competitive environment in the form of Garchomp moving to UBER and also the vast upgades to movepools that many Pokemon have recieved from Platinium along with the new formes. But how much do you think this will effect competitive battling?

Garchomps move to UBER has significantly affected the competitive environment, for example Flygon may recieve more usage.
Note: Do NOT start arguing over whether Garchomp should be UBER or not, there have been about 5 other threads for you to do that in.

Move Tutors and and other movepool upgrades have changed many Pokemon. The elemental Punches are now much more easily accessed and are now available to 4th gen pokemon that could not previously obtain it. Also Earth Power is the closest thing we have to a special Earthquake and has now been made available to many more Pokemon.

Platinium has also introduced new formes such as Skymin and Giritina's origin forme. What part do you think they might play?

Discuss.
 

zapdragon14

High as the sky 8D
As for the coutners of those OU Pokes: Yes, but your team doesn't have to have a specific counter for any of them. Blissey is completely crippled by any STAB physical attack, and probably OHKO if it's boosted. Salamence has already been pretty well covered, but can you honestly think of many teams who don't have an option to status a Poke? Gengar and Jirachi both share Ghost weakness, and Lucario and Gengar share a psychic weakness. Lucario is weak to...well, a lot, including the very common fighting. So while you do need counters for them, you don't need specific ones, and they can be applied to other Pokes.

Garchomp has two weaknesses. Jirachi doesn't have a weakness to ghost. Lucario has no psychic weakness. Lucario is actually only weak to three types, thats only one more than Garchomp.

.-.
 

platinum breeder

Well-Known Member
The main change I think that will affect the uber tier is Darkrai now it can learn Nasty Plot. It makes the pokemon almost invincible, Abillity: Bad Dreams Moves: Thunderbolt, Nasty Plot, Dark Void and Psychic. But like always Darkrai can be taken down with carefull strategy.

On a side note, i think a lot more pokemon might become overused due to new moves bieng taught by move tutors, but we'll have to wait and see when more people get platinum and start playing competetivly.
 

Blazios

Well-Known Member
The main change I think that will affect the uber tier is Darkrai now it can learn Nasty Plot. It makes the pokemon almost invincible, Abillity: Bad Dreams Moves: Thunderbolt, Nasty Plot, Dark Void and Psychic. But like always Darkrai can be taken down with carefull strategy

Psychic?

Moveset would possibly be better as:

-Dark Void
-Nasty Plot
-Dark Pulse
-Spacial Rend
 

randomspot555

Well-Known Member
Garchomp has two weaknesses. Jirachi doesn't have a weakness to ghost. Lucario has no psychic weakness. Lucario is actually only weak to three types, thats only one more than Garchomp.

.-.

You're right about the weaknesses, my apologies for the misinformation. But Chomp's dragon weakness isn't much against him, since it needs to be boosted to have a OHKO for the most part. The only disadvantage it really brings is Chomp coming in on someone like Nite, Salamence or Kingdra.
 
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