Changes to 4th Gen Competitive Battling NO GARCHOMP DISCUSSION!

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Anyway, for those who don't already know, here is the new OU list!

Aerodactyl
Alakazam
Azelf
Blissey
Breloom
Bronzong
Celebi
Cresselia
Donphan
Dragonite
Dugtrio
Dusknoir
Electivire
Empoleon
Flygon
Forretress
Gengar
Gliscor
Gyarados
Heatran
Heracross
Hippowdon
Infernape
Jirachi
Jolteon
Kingdra
Latias
Lucario
Machamp
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Metagross
Ninjask
Porygon-Z
Rhyperior
Rotom-A
Salamence
Scizor
Skarmory
Smeargle
Snorlax
Starmie
Suicune
Swampert
Tentacruel
Togekiss
Tyranitar
Vaporeon
Weavile
Zapdos

As you may notice, Latias is now listed! I'd be surprised if anybody didn't know this by now, but Latias is no longer Uber. Latios is still Uber though.

Also, Smeargle has risen up to OU from UU. Congratulations to those Smeargle fans!

And, Yanmega is the only Pokemon to fall from OU to UU. It will undergo testing soon to see if it will become UU or BL. However, Yanmega was VERY close to being OU again. It only just missed out. Porygon 2 also only just missed OU. It's ashame. It would've been the first NFE OU! It's always just missing OU.

On that note, these are the 6 Pokemon that are being tested for BL:

Abomasnow
Crobat
Froslass
Gallade
Raikou
Staraptor

So, in a few days, people will be voting on whether the mentioned Pokemon are going to be BL or UU.

And, these are the Pokemon that are in the first proper DP UU tier!

Absol
Altaria
Ambipom
Arcanine
Azumarill
Blastoise
Blaziken
Chansey
Charizard
Claydol
Clefable
Drapion
Electrode
Espeon
Feraligatr
Gardevoir
Hariyama
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Honchkrow
Houndoom
Kabutops
Lanturn
Ludicolo
Magmortar
Mesprit
Milotic
Miltank
Mismagius
Moltres
Muk
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Ninetales
Omastar
Poliwrath
Porygon2
Primeape
Regirock
Registeel
Roserade
Rotom
Sceptile
Scyther
Shaymin
Slowbro
Spiritomb
Steelix
Swellow
Torterra
Toxicroak
Typhlosion
Umbreon
Uxie
Venusaur
Yanmega
Weezing

That's 57 Pokemon, and if none of the 6 suspects get voted BL, that will be 63 UUs! That's quite a lot if you ask me!

There's a few surprises in the UU list. Especially Scyther for me. I don't think it's particularly weak, but it didn't perform very well in previous UU statistics. In the case of UU, the Pokemon that just missed the cut was Rhydon. Poor soul. It's gradually getting more and more popular though. If it keeps gaining popularity, it'll surely be UU in July, unless Rhyperior falls out of OU of course.

And, all the Pokemon that haven't been mentioned in the 3 lists above, and aren't Uber are all NU.

So, Rhydon, Driftblim, Tangrowth, Manectric, Jumpluff, Leafeon, Floatzel, Kangaskhan, Medicham, Shuckle, and everything else are now NU! Seems like a very interesting tier to me. Sneasel is the fastest Pokemon there.

And, what I consider the major shock of this month's statistics! Regice came 95th in UU. Good grief! That's VERY low. It just can't match up to Chansey. But Regice scoring lower than Articuno? Wow!

And, the 30 most used Pokemon in OU in March:

1. Scizor
2. Salamence
3. Heatran
4. Gyarados
5. Infernape
6. Metagross
7. Tyranitar
8. Blissey
9. Swampert
10. Latias
11. Lucario
12. Gengar
13. Jirachi
14. Zapdos
15. Celebi
16. Starmie
17. Azelf
18. Breloom
19. Gliscor
20. Vaporeon
21. Bronzong
22. Skarmory
23. Kingdra
24. Flygon
25. Magnezone
26. Jolteon
27. Machamp
28. Togekiss
29. Rotom-H
30. Electivire

And the 30 most used in UU in March:

1. Shaymin
2. Mismagius
3. Roserade
4. Registeel
5. Honchkrow
6. Steelix
7. Milotic
8. Azumarill
9. Hitmontop
10. Arcanine
11. Blaziken
12. Ambipom
13. Uxie
14. Spiritomb
15. Slowbro
16. Clefable
17. Claydol
18. Drapion
19. Swellow
20. Toxicroak
21. Smeargle (this is OU now)
22. Altaria
23. Espeon
24. Moltres
25. Typhlosion
26. Kabutops
27. Absol
28. Ludicolo
29. Chansey
30. Umbreon

Funny story, I misread Espeon as Flareon, and let's just say, I gasped out loud. XD

And nice to see Grass and Fire types getting some of the limelight in UU. I'm surprised at the progress that Altaria made. It was NU in usage a couple of months ago.

And, the top 30 used in Ubers in March:

1. Kyogre
2. Groudon
3. Rayquaza
4. Darkrai
5. Palkia
6. Dialga
7. Wobbuffet
8. Scizor
9. Mewtwo
10. Deoxys-E (who would've thought this would be the most popular Deoxys 6 months ago!?)
11. Lugia
12. Blissey
13. Garchomp
14. Forretress
15. Giratina
16. Deoxys-F
17. Latias
18. Giratina-O
19. Lucario
20. Shaymin-S
21. Metagross
22. Latios
23. Jirachi
24. Tyranitar
25. Mew
26. Ho-oh
27. Manaphy
28. Heatran
29. Ninjask
30. Ludicolo

And, in OU, here is a list of what each Pokemon is most commonly paired with. And to save time, those who have Scizor as their most common teammate will not be listed. So if a Pokemon isn't listed, it either didn't get enough usage for useful data to be collected, or its most common teammate was Scizor. And these are listed in alphabetical order:

Abomasnow - Walrein
Absol - Lucario
Alakazam - Salamence
Blastoise - Venusaur
Blissey - Salamence
Breloom - Heatran
Bronzong - Heatran
Cacturne - Tyranitar
Celebi - Heatran
Charizard - Gengar
Claydol - Blissey
Clefable - Abomasnow
Cradily - Tyranitar
Cresselia - Salamence
Donphan - Gyarados
Dusknoir - Blissey
Electivire - Gyarados
Electrode - Kingdra
Feraligatr - Gengar
Floatzel - Kingdra
Forretress - Blissey
Froslass - Abomasnow
Gardevoir - Salamence
Gengar - Salamence
Gliscor - Tyranitar
Heracross - Salamence
Hippowdon - Blissey
Hitmontop - Infernape
Honchkrow - Metagross
Houndoom - Gengar
Kabutops - Kingdra
Lanturn - Gyarados
Lucario - Salamence
Ludicolo - Kingdra
Machamp - Heatran
Magnezone - Salamence
Marowak - Ninjask
Metagross - Salamence
Miltank - Togekiss
Moltres - Starmie
Roserade - Heatran
Sceptile - Starmie
Scizor - Salamence
Shaymin - Infernape
Shuckle - Tyranitar
Skarmory - Blissey
Slowbro - Snorlax
Snorlax - Salamence
Spiritomb - Blissey
Staraptor - Infernape
Suicune - Salamence
Tangrowth - Heatran
Tentacruel - Skarmory
Umbreon - Lucario
Ursaring - Gengar
Venusaur - Blastoise
Walrein - Abomasnow
Weavile - Infernape
Weezing - Blissey

Some interesting things here. Well, there's the obvious pairings such as Abomasnow and Walrein, and pretty much every Rain Dance Pokemon is paired with Kingdra. Others like Lanturn and Electivire being paired with Gyarados are because Lanturn and Electivire like being hit by the Electric-type attacks aimed at Gyarados. Then there's Skarmory, Weezing and Forretress paired with Blissey, which is just like the SkarmBliss, WeezBliss and ForryBliss combos of the Advance days. Blastoise and Venusaur both being paired with each other a lot is a result of gimmick starter teams. It's the only explanation!

And, something rather funny. 96% of Walrein are teamed with an Abomasnow.

 

[TomstarRule]

Why does Smogon have to Pis* all over it's tiers?

It has just made an NU tier list, and its big. And full of the likes of Quagsire, Cacturne, Medicham, Rampardos, Entei, Lapras and any other good UU pokemon you can think of... including Pinsir but Nidoking and Queen aren't

 

[Excitable Boy]

Thanks a bunch, Shuckle Man!

It seems like Swampert is scaling the scale of OU.

 

[goldfan]

Why does Smogon have to Pis* all over it's tiers?

It has just made an NU tier list, and its big. And full of the likes of Quagsire, Cacturne, Medicham, Rampardos, Entei, Lapras and any other good UU pokemon you can think of... including Pinsir but Nidoking and Queen aren't

Now tell me what is wrong with that. Nidoking and Nidoqueen are used enough in UU to warrent being in the tier, the others aren't. You have literally no point to make.

EDIT: Shuckle man you are awesome etc... I'm looking forward to cousin dan posting, also =P

 

[hobby]

If Nidoking and queen ever fell below UU I would be shocked, they are some of the most versatile Pokemon in the tier, though NU Pinsir, Regice, Tauros and Ursaring that is a shocking revelation, that needs to be reevaluated I think, since many Pokemon there used to be deemed strong enough to be BL and are now NU, this solely usage based tier reshuffle is a bad idea...

 

[Cousin_Dan]

I'm looking forward to cousin dan posting, also =P

Yay I'm special. =D. Seriously though, why?

Anyway I completely agree with Hobby. Basing so many lower tiers COMPLETELY on usage isn't really a good idea. I'm not saying they should stop using it at all I'm just saying that you need to have the common sense to not put Regice (and a few others) in NU.

The main problem is that you are basing how well a poke will do in a metagame on how well it does in a completely different metagame. There are many pokes (smeargle, tenta, the nidos etc.) that are only highly used in one tier because they fill a particular niche, yet, they can still fit very well into the tier below (but aren't allowed too). Another problem is something getting outclassed (see Regice) and hence not getting any usage despite the fact that is perfectly viable in OU and will overcentralise their tier.

I'm sorry but Miltank and Muk being in a tier higher than Regice, Flotzel and Tauros is, quite frankly, a joke.

 

[goldfan]

Yay I'm special. =D. Seriously though, why?

You always have some interesting points, and you give me someione to argue against =P Not that you are necessarily wrong, we just have different viewpoints!

Anyway I completely agree with Hobby. Basing so many lower tiers COMPLETELY on usage isn't really a good idea. I'm not saying they should stop using it at all I'm just saying that you need to have the common sense to not put Regice (and a few others) in NU.

You are basing your ideas of a RegiLeague NU tier, which is going to be nothing like the Smogon NU tier. You have absolutely no experience of this tier whatsoever, and you can't really make judgements on what will, and what won't be good. NU will be created in the same way that the new UU was created, so, if it turns out the Regice is too powerful for NU, it will be voted "BL" (or whatever the Ban List tier for NU [or possibly LU] is named.)

The main problem is that you are basing how well a poke will do in a metagame on how well it does in a completely different metagame. There are many pokes (smeargle, tenta, the nidos etc.) that are only highly used in one tier because they fill a particular niche, yet, they can still fit very well into the tier below (but aren't allowed too). Another problem is something getting outclassed (see Regice) and hence not getting any usage despite the fact that is perfectly viable in OU and will overcentralise their tier.

That is a fair point, but it does not affect the tiering system negativly. I can see what you are saying, that some Pokemon aren't appreciated in certain tiers when they could be. That is, unfortunately, the nature of Usage tiering. I would, however, prefer this to happen than the chaos of the theorymoned tier. Every tiering method has some flaws, it is just that some people prefer one to the other. It is fair enough that you don't like that method of tiering, and it if fair enough that I do. There is no way that we can agree on this one lol =D

I'm sorry but Miltank and Muk being in a tier higher than Regice, Flotzel and Tauros is, quite frankly, a joke.

They are better Pokemon in that tier. It is not a joke, this is not theorymon, this is actual experience of good players using these Pokemon. Again, you are insulting the general populance of the Smogon UU ladder. If people thought that Regice, Floatzel and Tauros deserved to be in UU, then they would use them. But people don't use them, because they aren't good enough. Don't give me endless theorymon on this, that is just your (flawed) opinion on certain Pokemon.

Again, if these "ZOMG OVERPOWERED FOR NU" Pokemon are actually overpowered for NU, they will be banned. That is the nature of the process.

since many Pokemon there used to be deemed strong enough to be BL and are now NU, this solely usage based tier reshuffle is a bad idea...

hobby =( I would use that to argue that the original UU tier that was based solely on an untested evaluation of a Pokemon was a bad idea. You can argue that both ways round and not come to a conclusion. The stuff we used to throw in BL (like Rampardos) would not have done well in old UU anyway.

 

[hobby]

I admit on reading that back it came over a little under thought but the point I guess I was trying to make is that which Cousin Dan pointed out, common sense will tell you that a tier that is made to be the battling ground of things like Ledian and Luvdisc is going to be somewhat unbalanced by the presence of things like Regice. If NU is going to stay the way it is now then it will create the need for a further set of tiers, one lower and one higher just to balance it out.

 

[goldfan]

Where did this idea that NU is a tier made to be the battling ground of Ledian and Luvdisc come from? No offense to anyone, but that is complete crap. It is baseless.

EDIT: To elaborate, this is what I mean by "predefined ideas of NU." You are all assuming it to be "the playground of crap Pokemon" when it is not, it is simply the tier that is under UU.

 

[Blade Knight]

Eh, Smogon uses usage to create the tiers. If you don't like their tiers don't use them, fairly simple concept. Anyway, usage is usage, it is what the Shoddy Smogonites use in their battles the most and as such that decides the tiering of Pokemon. (With the exception of Uber and BL {and maybe even a NUBL } )

I don't like how some Pokemon landed myself ( I mean why is Donphan OU when Porygon2 isn't? *slaps Smogonites* ) but eh, I'll use P2 anyway because I like it and it fits my team. I'm probably sounding pretty dumb giving the canned "use-what-you-like" speech, but it has some truth. (Of course then there is the factor of if you win or not with what you like and that is another question)

Yay for Smeargle though.

 

[hobby]

OK if my belief is flawed but was the tiering system not created to make places for lower usage Pokemon to gain use in an environment where they are not outclassed?

 

[goldfan]

Fair point, there has been discussiong of creating a LU tier, and then an NU tier under that, if there is enough calling for it. I suggest you read this thread the posts towards the end show the ideas that are being thrown about. We are looking at something like this:

Uber
OU
BL1
UU
BL2
LU
(BL3
NU)
Unter

BL3 and NU are in brackets, because they might not happen at all. Unter is where we throw essentially crap pokemon such as Luvdisc etc... unless they end up in NU. To be honest, I would not want an NU tier for the reasons that I mention in that thread. The Pokemon are "so bad" that there will be no real tactics, just a bunch of Choiced Pokemon. I would be happy if we never made such a boring tier =P People could always play "Unter" if they really wanted to >_>

 

[Blade Knight]

Where did this idea that NU is a tier made to be the battling ground of Ledian and Luvdisc come from? No offense to anyone, but that is complete crap. It is baseless.

EDIT: To elaborate, this is what I mean by "predefined ideas of NU." You are all assuming it to be "the playground of crap Pokemon" when it is not, it is simply the tier that is under UU.

OK if my belief is flawed but was the tiering system not created to make places for lower usage Pokemon to gain use in an environment where they are not outclassed?

Banning lists exist for a reason. If a Pokemon is overpowered it is banned. Just because NU is Luvdisc and Dustox country doesn't mean all Pokemon there must be that same power. Besides, Smogon might make a NEU tier for the Pokemon that are NeverEverUsed.

EDIT: Like goldfan said: a Little Used might make a show. (So much for NEU I guess after reading some threads)

 

[James Bondage]

I thought this was a "No Garchomp" thread??? I'm not going to scroll all the way through the seemingly off topic discussion, but I really have never seen 'chomp as Uber. There were a few poke's that could take out 'chomp (in my opinion) in D/P, and with Platinum, even in OU, It should be called "Garchump". I mean...really...REALLY...any players that can't walk all over Garchomp with poke's like Scizor, Togekiss, or even Ambipom are just sad. I enclude Ambipom due to the fact that if (and only if) it is Jolly in nature, has Technician as it's ability, has Max EV's in Attack and Speed, and holing a Life Orb (yes, I realize this isn't something the average player would try), 'chomp get 2HKO'd with Fake Out and Double Hit without making any attacks, unless some idiot uses a Bold or Modest 'chomp. Even Poke's that were mentioned below (Miltank, Regice), in my expierence, don't even have trouble with it if 'chomp hasn't recieved any stat boosts with Swords Dance. Anybody playing against me is more than welcome to use Garchump as an OU anytime.

 

[hobby]

@goldfan - That thread is pretty much exactly what I was thinking, with the tiers that way it allows for a viable metagame underneath UU and keeps the other tiers from being uncluttered.

@jeyre - while that may be so, every situation you have described requires a set place on your team to take out chomp, not to mention the fact that your Ambipom example is so improbable that is really does not warrant mentioning (I could expand on this but it is so off topic I won't). Chomp over-centralises, that is the way it is, it won't be coming back.

 

[goldfan]

Maybe it is that sort of post that was the basis for the "NO GARCHOMP DISCUSSION" rule.

 

[Cousin_Dan]

You are basing your ideas of a RegiLeague NU tier, which is going to be nothing like the Smogon NU tier.

I've never played the RL NU tier. x]

You have absolutely no experience of this tier whatsoever, and you can't really make judgements on what will, and what won't be good. NU will be created in the same way that the new UU was created, so, if it turns out the Regice is too powerful for NU, it will be voted "BL" (or whatever the Ban List tier for NU [or possibly LU] is named.)

Lets say that Regice and the the other old BLs are kept NU. The problem I see is that it makes the tiers too much of a 'mixed bag' this, imo, destroys the point of having tiers in the first place. This is because the system allows for pokes being too powerful and getting moved up but not ones that can suit perfectly well to a lower tier yet aren't allowed there due to high usage in a DIFFERENT metagame. Like I said before I don't think you should bin the usage system all together (it actully works very well on the whole for OU) but rather that you do use SOME theorymon to keep the lower tiers in check.

That is a fair point, but it does not affect the tiering system negativly. I can see what you are saying, that some Pokemon aren't appreciated in certain tiers when they could be. That is, unfortunately, the nature of Usage tiering. I would, however, prefer this to happen than the chaos of the theorymoned tier. Every tiering method has some flaws, it is just that some people prefer one to the other. It is fair enough that you don't like that method of tiering, and it if fair enough that I do. There is no way that we can agree on this one lol =D

The entire point of the tiering system is to keep pokes in a rough bracket of power so they don't get pummeled by OU giants and never get used. I feel that the current lower tiers seem to attack this by having pokes that are very good but outclassed by something else getting moved down yet having other 'lower quality pokes' in a tier (or even 2) above.

Having the usage system but using theorymon to correct the mistakes it causes is what I believe would be best. However at the moment I personally think the RL tiers are MUCH better than the current smogon tiers despite the problems it has with differing opinions. You're right though, we probably won't ever agree on this matter

They are better Pokemon in that tier. It is not a joke, this is not theorymon, this is actual experience of good players using these Pokemon. Again, you are insulting the general populance of the Smogon UU ladder. If people thought that Regice, Floatzel and Tauros deserved to be in UU, then they would use them. But people don't use them, because they aren't good enough. Don't give me endless theorymon on this, that is just your (flawed) opinion on certain Pokemon.

There is a very large difference between being good in a tier and being outclassed by something else. I haven't researched into the matter enough to know how much of this applies to Tauros and Floatzel but I believe this is the case with Regice. There are too many variables to take into account than to be so small minded and say 'lot's o' usage = good poke, end of story'.

Again, if these "ZOMG OVERPOWERED FOR NU" Pokemon are actually overpowered for NU, they will be banned. That is the nature of the process.

Fair enough but my mindset is more along the lines of 'if Regice is NU then a significant amount of UUs should be there aswell' though I severly doubt you will even come close to agreeing with that.

 

[goldfan]

For Gods sake, stop banging on about Pokemon that are outclassed being in lower tiers. Blaziken actually fits quite well in UU, it has decent counters etc... Infernape may well not overpower the current UU tier either. Chansey isn't overpowered in UU, when it is practically the same as Blissey, do you not get my point. If something is outclassed, that does not mean that it instantly unbalances a tier, if it did instantly unbalance a tier it would be banned period. In fact, it's good that Pokemon that are outclassed in one tier get to run around in a lower tier isn't it, "that way more people can use their favourites"

Apart from that one point we are not going to reconcile this position

 

[James Bondage]

@jeyre - while that may be so, every situation you have described requires a set place on your team to take out chomp, not to mention the fact that your Ambipom example is so improbable that is really does not warrant mentioning (I could expand on this but it is so off topic I won't). Chomp over-centralises, that is the way it is, it won't be coming back.

Couldn't the exact same thing be said about Platinum moveset Scizor, or an Adamant, Technician Hitmontop that knows Mach and/or Bullet Punch, and Fake Out? I abuse people with these two regularly in the same way people used to abuse with 'chomp.

 

[Cousin_Dan]

The problem isn't something being moved down because it was outclassed. I said the problem was that if a poke like Regice is moved down and fits the tier it was moved down too then there is a significant amount of other pokes that could be moved down with it and also fit there well.

I did mention something about some RL qualities being put in the smogon system but tbh the more I think about it the less that seems possible so no we won't agree on this at all.

Also Jehre stole the 6000th post. (D)