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Changes to 4th Gen Competitive Battling NO GARCHOMP DISCUSSION!

hobby

Well-Known Member
Couldn't the exact same thing be said about Platinum moveset Scizor, or an Adamant, Technician Hitmontop that knows Mach and/or Bullet Punch, and Fake Out? I abuse people with these two regularly in the same way people used to abuse with 'chomp.

The same may apply to Scizor (though it has more common counters than Chomp *points to pretty much any bulky water*) but I would never call Hitmontop an overcentalising threat. Remember the basis of the movement was not so much power as the issue of overcentralising combined with this immense power and seeming lack of counters.
 
At the end of the day, I'll say, anyone who thinks Smogon's old method of tiering is better than their new method, does not fully understand the situation.

Anyway, I'll probably go inactive until this time next month. :) Bye everyone. :)
 
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BaldWombat

Mortal Wombat!
At the end of the day, I'll say, anyone who thinks Smogon's old method of tiering is better than their new method, does not fully understand the situation.

Anyway, I'll probably go inactive until this time next month. :) Bye everyone. :)

I really wish you would clarify what you are saying here. To be honest, I believe the old tiers were better and that the way they treated UU was very poor. They never would of done the same with Uber and OU for instance. Adding more ban tiers for the lower divisions just needlessly complicates the tiers in an attempt to fix an issue that their latest "fix" created.

I just don't agree with tiers being based solely on usage. Right now Smeargle can not be used in UU because it was used too much on a simulator. I won't comment on the addition of the NU tiers. I just wonder when the people at Smogon are going to realize that maybe they need to take other factors into account than usage in making their tiers. The way they are handling the suspect testing of certain Ubers is being done much, much better then the way they have handled things with UU. I just hope that they figure out how to make their tiers work the best before they mess things up too badly.
 

goldfan

playing an ish game
Wombat, will you please.


1.) What is wrong with Smeargle being unusable in UU?
2.) People have realised that there could be other factors to take into account, they're not dumb, as you seem to be making out.
3.) There is also a suspect test process for UU.
4.) What exactly is messed up too badly, there is nothing "messed up" about Smogon's tiers

We have already discussed the advantages of usage tiering as compared to Theorymon tiering. Usage tiering is more objective, and is the policy they have chosen. If you do not like tiering on that principle, don't use Smogon's tiers... Don't go slagging off a site that makes tiers for ITS OWN USERS, if you care so much, voice your opinion there and see if you can convince everyone that "they have been stupid all this time and must NOW suddenly realise that there are other factors to take into account." Yes, we are dumb, we never realised ._.
 

BaldWombat

Mortal Wombat!
Gold, I'm not calling anyone at Smogon dumb, and I do read that site quite often. The point I was making is that they make changes to try and make things better and end up creating more issues that they later work on to repair.

The issue with Smeargle is that he does not overcentralize the UU metagame. Is usage is high which is great, but he has been banned from a large part of his play. This is where something like a dual tiering would work. OU/UU would work perfectly fine as Smeargle has the usage for OU and does not overcentralize UU. Banning him from UU limits one aspect of that metagame. I know that there is a suspect test for UU, it is just being done too slowly for me as I enjoy playing UU and the tiers are in too much of a state of flux for it to be enjoyable.

The debate here is not theorymon vs usage for me. It is overcentralization vs usage. I fear that there aren't enough Smogonites playing UU to really deal with making it right when you take into account how they tested it. I feel that they did to much at once and needed to do tests in smaller samples is all.
 
Don't go slagging off a site that makes tiers for ITS OWN USERS

I just thought I'd jump in and say that I've encountered various people from Smogon who've taken any and all opportunities possible to try and force their tiering system down my throat. Originally, I have no doubts, that the tiering system was made for themselves but over time, I fear, something has gone to people's (not all-inclusive) heads and they've sought to monopolise the tiering market. At least that's how it came across *shrug*
 

hobby

Well-Known Member
It came across that way mostly because they have realised that their tiers are the most used throughout the Pokemon Community, so some (read: not all) members have become a little overconfident because of that, don't get me wrong I think their tiers are solid for the most part but the "infamy", if you will, of Smogon has made some people think their tiers are flawless when even their high up members will tell you they are not.
 
Gold, I'm not calling anyone at Smogon dumb, and I do read that site quite often. The point I was making is that they make changes to try and make things better and end up creating more issues that they later work on to repair.

The issue with Smeargle is that he does not overcentralize the UU metagame. Is usage is high which is great, but he has been banned from a large part of his play. This is where something like a dual tiering would work. OU/UU would work perfectly fine as Smeargle has the usage for OU and does not overcentralize UU. Banning him from UU limits one aspect of that metagame. I know that there is a suspect test for UU, it is just being done too slowly for me as I enjoy playing UU and the tiers are in too much of a state of flux for it to be enjoyable.

The debate here is not theorymon vs usage for me. It is overcentralization vs usage. I fear that there aren't enough Smogonites playing UU to really deal with making it right when you take into account how they tested it. I feel that they did to much at once and needed to do tests in smaller samples is all.

Okay, here's how I see the tiers, and from my perspective, this tiering system seems almost perfect, so hopefully it will help you to see why I don't have a problem with it.

Basically, we all started playing Pokemon. However, some Pokemon such as Kyogre were being used on nearly every team, and were very difficult to take down. The metagame was very centralized. So we banned Kyogre and other such broken Pokemon.

Then, we had a balanced tier, which featured about 50 useable Pokemon. This was more fun, and there was a decent amount of variety between everyone's teams. Everybody was happy. However, after a little while, people realized that there were about 400 Pokemon that weren't seeing any significant use, and weren't powerful enough to play properly.

So, as a community, it was decided that we'll ban all the most popular Pokemon, so we'll be forced to use some of the lesser used Pokemon. But, there came a problem. How do we define what a popular Pokemon is? Is Vaporeon 'popular'? Is Electivire 'common'? Is Empoleon 'uncommon'? Is Donphan's usage low enough to consider it 'not popular'? It is vital that there needs to be a cut-off point to determine what gets banned for the metagame where we are forced to use less popular Pokemon. In the end, it was agreed that the cut-off point is at a position such that the Pokemon is more likely than not to be seen in at least 1 of 20 teams.

It so happens, that the above criteria leads to having about 50 Pokemon in OU. So, everybody is happy now. We have a metagame (which is called 'UnderUsed'), where some Pokemon that can't shine in normal play (which is called 'OverUsed'), can have their own fun. However, there's more problems. Firstly, UU isn't balanced! Shock! Horror! What can we do to balance it? A good solution is to ban the Pokemon that are 'breaking' the tier. So, people conduct experiments to attempt to single out the broken Pokemon, and see which ones need banning.

Okay? Now, why would we ban 50 Pokemon to try and balance UU? Sure, if we absolutely MUST do so, then it has to be done. But isn't the whole point of UU to allow more Pokemon to see use? Banning dozens of Pokemon will just mean that these Pokemon can't be used in UU, and are not considered common in OU. I'd feel very sorry for those Pokemon that are banned, as they don't really have a metagame to shine in.

However, there's another issue. The popularity of a Pokemon is always changing. Some Pokemon, such as Empoleon, Rhyperior and Smeargle have rose in popularity recently. They're seeing more use in OU, and are considered 'common'. But isn't the whole point of UU for Pokemon that are 'not common' to see play? Well, Empoleon, Rhyperior and Smeargle are now 'common' in OU, so they have to be removed from the tier that is supposed to feature 'not common' Pokemon. Sure, they didn't break the tier, but they're common now. The uncommon Pokemon are supposed to shine in UU. Likewize, Yanmega, Spiritomb, Roserade and Milotic have declined in popularity in OU. They were added to UU, so they can be used effectively by their fans again.

Even with UU, there are still about 300 Pokemon that aren't getting much use / can't be used effectively in any metagame, so the process was repeated again, and a tier for Pokemon that are 'not common' in UU was created. Sure, some of the Pokemon in this tier can be useful in both UU and OU. The the point is, they're not seeing much use at all. It is less likely than not for such Pokemon to appear in at least 1 in 20 teams in OU AND UU. This is considered 'not common', so these Pokemon are put in a lower usage tier, where hopefully, they can be 'common'. And, as usual, NU may not be balanced, so appropriate Pokemon are banned to try and help matters. And, after NU is established, there will probably still be hundreds of Pokemon not getting use, and another tier may be created.

This makes perfect sense to me. The point of tiers is to create numerous metagames so that most Pokemon can be 'common' in a metagame. Tiers are NOT to show how strong Pokemon are. It does so happen that the stronger Pokemon are used more, because everybody wants to win, but if Scizor and Salamence got now use, they would drop to UU, and probably be banned to BL.

Personally, as a Tangrowth fan, I'm quite happy that I can use the Pokemon to good effect in 3 tiers now. And who knows? Maybe it won't be 'common' in NU, and it'll have a 4th tier to play in!

Do you understand why I don't find the tiering system weird now?
 
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BaldWombat

Mortal Wombat!
See tiers to me and a lot of other people here aren't about popularity and they are about quality. I would put this in line with weight classes in boxing. Someone isn't a heavyweight because they are popular, they are a heavy weight because of size and strength. This is something that you will not be able to chnage anyone minds on just like your minds won't be changed.

I do have a solution. Seeing as how they are designed for Smogon users, please stop posting the updates to the tiers every month here as this isn't Smogon. If someone here wants to see any of this information they can to go Smogon and see it there. All the posting of the tiers and stats does is begin this arguement every month with neither side backing down. So please stop posting them, as they are for your site and not ours, and this nonsense will hopefully stop.
 

hobby

Well-Known Member
The only problem with that is that many people will do not go to/refuse to go to Smogon but are still required to have some knowledge of these tiers and statistics (or are just interested in them). Not to mention that the statistical information has other uses than just tier restructuring, such as helping to inform people on how to adjust their strategies to combat Pokemon whose popularity is rising, this is useful information to enable a battler to know what they are likely to be facing and to prepare themselves for what will be an obvious threat, keep the stats coming SHUCKLE MAN, they will always have an audience and will always be useful.
 
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goldfan

playing an ish game
Why not post the stats? Surely it's not hard to observe "Oh, it's interesting that smeargle is being used in OU," without resorting to petty comments about tiering.

And Femme, I can understand that there are bad users from every website. (I also recognise that there was one time where you could have accused me of that, trust me, I am not proud) I do not want to see Smogon judged on those users, just as much as I do not want Serebii to be judged on some bad users.

I am sorry if I incited some of this. Tiering will lay low for a while, I promise.

Also, I still love you Shuckle Man ^___^
 

BaldWombat

Mortal Wombat!
The only reason that I requested that these stats and tier changes not get posted every month is that we can put an end to all this nonsensical flaming that follows. I also feel that it has damaged the respect and friendship levels between certain people and that is really a shame.
 

hobby

Well-Known Member
Then maybe we should just agree to stop the petty tiering fights when these stats are released, it shouldn't be too hard to stick to considering there are only a select few of us here...
 
Well, I can stop posting the tier lists here every quarter if it does seem like I'm forcing them upon people, but the raw stats shouldn't be a problem, as they don't include only the battles of Smogon members. People from here are welcome to have their battles included in the stats. Infact, I'm sure a lot of regulars in this thread do that very thing.

And, for those who do want to follow Smogon's tier lists (you don't have to), Raikou, Gallade, Abomasnow and Staraptor have been voted BL, and Crobat has been voted UU.

Froslass is 50:50 in the voting, but I think there may be more votes to come.
 
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LightingKimba

Listenin' t'Dragons!
Honestly, I did like Froslass in UU. Heck, the only set that gave people trouble was a set that Raikuga (#SPP HOp) used, but used as a lead.

Then again, Froslass was doing trouble even in Old UU, just not as much now.

Yanmega being moved down still is underwhelming to me. Whether a lead or not, Tinted Lens Yanmega still seems to be less than trouble to me, since my Scarf Blaziken often forces a switch-out.

And I seriously need to start NU. Like, now.
 

Gorgonopsid Master

Strong like bull
Move tutors in Platinum won't change a hell of a lot. It's uber because you need a specified plan to beat it. Without one, it's near impossible. I mean, if you go into a battle and all of a sudden find yourself up against a Garchomp, you won't be prepared at all and will most likely get swept by it, or near enough.

that is completely untrue i was against a garchomp which i never anticipated cos this was an OU battle and i destroyed with a blissey
 
D

Deleted member 11515

Guest
Garchomp discusion?
What.

>:|
 
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oooo

Well-Known Member
I hope Manaphy stays Uber, I don't want to see him on rain teams. I think that Pokemon should move up tiers more than they move down.
 
I don't think so.

I think we should discuss the ridiculous tier that is NU.

There are pokemon that have no counters in the tier. Medicham for example, who's only sure fire counters are Cresselia and Spiritomb. There are less then 5 pokemon who Marowak doesn't OHKO. The only dedicated physical walls in the tier have 4x fighting and ground weakness. The difference between to top tier of NU and bottom is ridiculous.
 
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