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Changes to 4th Gen Competitive Battling NO GARCHOMP DISCUSSION!

Discussion in 'Older Gens' started by Machiki, Oct 2, 2008.

  1. hobby

    hobby Well-Known Member

    That is simply because NU is a dumping ground at the moment, you can't really expect it to be balanced when it was created by drawing a line in the metaphoric sand and dumping everything below it into a "tier". Hopefully, given time, it will become a more balanced place, but this will require yet another ban tier (despite anyones objections to it it is the best option...)
     
  2. I do not want to have another go at smogon, as well, the great majority of posts in this thread involve that. Though it is apparent that their projects in recent times do not involve a very structured thought process. I personally don't recall anyone asking them to ruin the UU tier. All of their projects that have come under criticism are 'Works in progress' or 'We'll get to it later'. Even if they do they should not edit their tier lists when the project is incomplete. Or else then we have travesties like the current NU.

    They are beginning to lose respect amongst other communities who follow their tiers because of the lack of thought and direction of many projects they are undertaking.

    There has to be a point where they stop, We will continuously see more and more ban tiers. Some pokemon just aren't meant to be used competitively and that is why they aren't seeing much usage. This doesn't mean we need to reshape a previously good set-up that smogon had.

    Their actions have made them the subject of ridicule. The NU tier does nothing to remedy this and in fact is the source of most of the ridicule. I'm sure Goldfan will show up and tell me that the project is incomplete and I'm being ignorant but why add the tier and the pokemon currently in it to the main page? It isn't needed. Once the set up as been completely thought out and they are satisfied with the outcome they can post it on the main page. But until then 'dumping' random pokemon into a tier will not suffice.
     
  3. randomspot555

    randomspot555 Well-Known Member

    Since when does an individual community need permission from others to do something?
     
  4. I am not referring to a community asking another community. I am referring to the users of smogon and the people who played UU ladder on the shoddy server, they were all happily content. They weren't begging for the re-tiering.
     
  5. Yonowaru in Chaos

    Yonowaru in Chaos gaspard de la nuit

    Even so, there should be some restrictions placed as to who won't fall below UU into NU (like with Heracross in OU). I'm pretty sure Medicham and Marowak can ably compete (and be at-least-decent threats) in UU just as fine.

    Well, at least NU has some colour to it now.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2009
  6. hobby

    hobby Well-Known Member

    I was in no way supporting the NU tier in my last post, just trying to explain the situation to stop this thread from turning into it's usual smogon tiering argument. Though I do agree with your idea, Yonowaru, that there should be some restrictions on individual pokemon that prevent them from moving tiers or else you will have the same problem that arose when Gallade entered UU...
     
  7. Indeed. Actually that is an excellent idea. Perhaps that should be taken into consideration if we are ever going to make a tier list. I suppose it stops some of the the bickering that would occur. If we based the tiers loosely on usage. While ascertaining and retaining some pokemon who belong in that respected tier and even if their usage does drop below what is required they cannot move down a tier.
     
  8. Cousin_Dan

    Cousin_Dan Banned

    Whilst I believe that our own tiers would be great it is doubtful of ever happening for a few reasons. One of the largest is the fact that, whilst there are certainly a large amount of battlers that would have enough knowledge to contribute, they would for the most part get drowned amongst a sea of "I TINK PIKACHU SHUD B OU BCOS HE IS REALY POWAHFUL AND CAN KO A GEODUDE WIT T-BOLT" and "GARCHOMP SHUD BE OU BCOZ HE WAS ONLE MADE UBAH BCOZ PEPLE R AFRADE OF HIM".

    You are free to pursue any Serebii tiers formation though, and I will give you my full backing if you choose to do so. But I just don't see it ever working.
     
  9. randomspot555

    randomspot555 Well-Known Member

    The problem with most sites that make their own tier lists is it only comes from theory-mon. At the very least, Smogon has their Shoddy server to back up battle statistics and has some form of evidence to support their claims. Until a good chunk of the BF users battle in a way where statistics can be tracked, it'll be a pretty useless tier that's backed up by "my opinion > your opinion"

    A website I'm on just had a re-launch, including the closing and re-opening of the forums. We just launched a Shoddy server so we can have exactly this type of evidence when/if we decide to deviate from the standard rules/tiers set by Smogon.
     
  10. Hauntershadow92

    Hauntershadow92 The Mono-type Man

    I'm not ragging on Smogon in this post. Just hear me out:

    Shoddy only provides usage. Now some usage, like OU usage, is helpful, showing us the best of the best. But other teirs should not really be based on usage. Usage has a HUGE disadvantage: It fogs people's mind. Honestly, I'm not preaching diverse thinking styles. What I am preaching is open eyes. Yes, we all know Blissey is the best Special Wall. But seriously, how good is she? Yeah she can Seismic Toss, BoltBeam, CM, etc. But nothing so special. But because of the Massive HP and SPDef, others are overlooked. There are so many other walls who do other jobs in addition to Special walling and who can easily deal with OU threats, but because of Smogon's way of teiring (Usage), they are vastly overlooked.

    I think usage should be used to an extent. If at all possible, Shoddy should be able to return, in addition to usage, things like: Special Hits taken, Physical Hits taken, Percent Damage doled out, etc. Possibly incredibly difficult to pull off, but you understand where I am going right? Perhaps an average per match instead of a collection of matches? I don't know. But the stats I provided not only shows us how many people use them, but also how much they can contribute to a team.

    Any thoughts?
     
  11. LightingKimba

    LightingKimba Listenin' t'Dragons!

    The only problem is that "It's not fair for the players, since we want to vote ourselves."

    If there was ever a Suspect in any tier, players of high rank should be able to test that pokémon, and vote whether or not if it's Uber or not. I really don't think a tier should be completely thought out by a "council of people", if that was what you were getting at.

    And it's possible for someone to extract data like damage values, but again; it takes quite the amount of time to program something to do that for Shoddy. It is still a boon how Shoddy is free-source, so a programmer would, if he had the time, make that program, and stream the data for view.
     
  12. I am an honest Blissey hating man like the rest of us. But Blissey is the best at special walling, no one comes close. 'Nothing so special' is the understatement of the thread. If you look at the first pages people say that Garchomp sucks and is easy to deal with. Just to give you an idea of the level of this understatement.

    As for everyone who is posting in this thread an excellent level of experience, knowledge and understanding has been shown. We can definitely make our own tiers, the mentality displayed by Cousin_Dan was disheartening and I think you underestimate many members of the community. As long as most of the project is done behind close doors a sufficient and superior tier list can be made.

    Serebii is also a wi-fi community. Wi-fi usage =/= shoddy usage and I know anyone who battles on both regularly will agree, to some extent. So using tiers that don't directly apply to us seems illogical.
     
  13. Cousin_Dan

    Cousin_Dan Banned

    The whole "behind closed doors" thing worries me. Everyone's opinions need to be able to be voiced but we would just have to ignore the idiotic ones that last one sentence.

    IMO, the easiest way to get tiers done is just to use another set of tiers as a base (such as the old smogon ones) and make the placement changes we want to from there. That way most of the project will not really have to be made 'behind closed doors'.
     
  14. hobby

    hobby Well-Known Member

    To be fair, behind closed doors is about the only way we could go about making our own tiers if we were to go down that road. It would also require a lot of thought prior to the undertaking. Of course doing it that way limits the amount of outside input that the tiers will get which leads to two major problems, the first being they don't accurately show what we want them to and the second being they will have a far greater chance of growing stagnant and being abandoned. It is this little problem that makes building Serebii tiers so difficult. Some people may say "build it in the battle forum, it is mostly for them anyway, they can be mature" but we all know that is not exactly true, there are just as many immature people here as any other place (the most recent garchomp comments prove this). Others may say "build it in CRMT, they have the knowledge, etc" but it is also painfully clear that this is not true, most of the battlers have more knowledge than the large majority of CRMT, but there is also no way for compromise, very few people actually post in both of these forums and a similarly low number have the maturity and dedication to actually undertake something like this. I was actually a member of a forum that set out to make their own tiers, but we failed due to a lack of dedication. I was also present when Reno (then still Aldred Felblade) posted a preliminary Serebii tier list in CRMT that he and several other CBC members had put together, and many of us will remember how quickly that descended into chaos.

    tl;dr I guess what I am trying to say, is that while a Serebii tier list would be nice, it is something that will be extremely hard to pull off and may not be entirely worth the effort...
     
  15. Hauntershadow92

    Hauntershadow92 The Mono-type Man

    Actually Kinder, Blissey really isn't special. All it does is wall. You can't really find any other use for it. Compare Bliss to Lax, where you have so many different sets for Lax, thus making it "Special".

    I don't mean Blissey is bad. All I'm saying is it serves only ONE role.

    As for the teir list, I think it would be a good idea.
     
  16. christiandeath77

    christiandeath77 You gotta crush em'.

    Does anyone think that IF G/S are remade, having the Extremespeed Dratini, Dragonite will see more usage then Salamence?
     
  17. oooo

    oooo Well-Known Member

    Maybe not MORE, but as much as. It becomes a power/speed question then.
     
  18. tbh D-Nite wouldn't need Extremespeed. If it got SD too it would probably get as much usage. But with DD as the stat up move ES isn't too necessary. I suppose it is interesting.
     
  19. christiandeath77

    christiandeath77 You gotta crush em'.

    I hope it does.I'd love to get my hands on a Dragonite with Extremespeed.
     
  20. christiandeath77

    christiandeath77 You gotta crush em'.

    I hope it does.I'd love to get my hands on a Dragonite with Extremespeed.
     

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