SHUCKLE MAN
98th
I can't really see Extremespeed Dragonite taking over Salamence in terms of popularity if I'm quite honest, unless Dragonite gets Belly Drum or something. XD
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Changes to 4th Gen Competitive Battling NO GARCHOMP DISCUSSION!
- Thread starter Machiki
- Start date
SHUCKLE MAN
98th
Another reason why Extremespeed Dragonite wasn't that great, even in the GSC days was because back then, everything was extremely stall-orientated (moreso than even Advance), so 5 or 8PP on one of your moves was simply not enough, especially when it did not provide much type coverage, and you want to couple it with Curse.
Dragonite had a good time in RBY though, with the Hyper Beam, Agility, Thunderwave, Wrap moveset. It got banned in some places actually.
It's funny, because nobody would EVER use Dragonite's RBY moveset in DPP. How times have changed.
And, has anybody been playing NU lately?
Dragonite had a good time in RBY though, with the Hyper Beam, Agility, Thunderwave, Wrap moveset. It got banned in some places actually.
It's funny, because nobody would EVER use Dragonite's RBY moveset in DPP. How times have changed.
And, has anybody been playing NU lately?
SHUCKLE MAN
98th
I would've replied to them, but the thread had already changed subject, and I didn't want to start another arguement.
I did agree with some of what he said though, but I think, overall, this NU tier is the perfect one, except Rhydon is wrecking havoc!!
Volcanic Lord - Psyphonix
Enigmatic Trainer
question, why is milotic in UU?
milotic is one of the best pokemon on my team, whats it doing in such a low teir? =/
milotic is one of the best pokemon on my team, whats it doing in such a low teir? =/
Umbreon-dana
Phat Philanthropist
Quite frankly, it's defense was too low to keep up with the large physical threat in DP. Even some of the specially based threats proved too much for it.
Hauntershadow92
The Mono-type Man
I highly disagree with that statement. RestTalk Milo is really good. Marvel Scale is a great ability.
Hauntershadow92
The Mono-type Man
I highly disagree with that statement. RestTalk Milo is really good. Marvel Scale is a great ability.
randomspot555
Well-Known Member
What do you think the 2 attacks should be? Obviously you can't cover everything with 2 slots, but what's the most worthwhile? Surf/HP Electric? Ice Beam/HP Electric? Surf/Toxic?
Hauntershadow92
The Mono-type Man
Its not just used for attacking. Its a wall, so my point is only to prove that it is a good wall, since it can take hits from both sides. Rest + Sleep Talk is the ideal Milotic set. The other moves are irrelevant in my arguement.
SHUCKLE MAN
98th
I would class pretty much all the UU Pokemon as 'good' Pokemon, and that includes Milotic.
The reason Milotic is UnderUsed, is because, well, it's Under Used in OU.
It was OU in Advance, and the beginning of DP, but it has now decreased in usage (probably because of the decrease in accuracy of Hypnosis in Platinum).
In April, this year, Milotic was the 56 most used Pokemon in OU. That isn't high enough for it to be OU, so it's UU.
It was slightly less used than Porygon 2, Yanmega, Gallade, Donphan and Abomasnow, and it got slightly more usage than Roserade, Clefable, Uxie, Ludicolo and Ambipom. None of those are OU.
Rewind back to October 2007, and Milotic was 38th, well into OU. Infact, in October 2007, Milotic had more usage than the likes of Suicune and Zapdos.
To sum up, Milotic used to be OU, but it has now dropped in usage, so it's UU. Why did it drop in usage? Most believe it's because of the accuracy drop in Hypnosis (this may also be why Yanmega dropped out). Just because Milotic isn't OU, it doesn't mean it isn't good, and that you shouldn't use it. Nearly all UUs are good Pokemon, it's just they're not the very best.
If you're really that bothered, popularize Milotic on the Smogon server on Shoddy Battle. If you popularize it enough, it should get enough usage to be OU again. However, this would be an extremely hard task to achieve. I'd suggest you just abuse Milotic in UU, where it's one of best.
EDIT: They're nominating new suspects for UU. Looks like Crobat, Mismagius, Ludicolo, Shaymin, Honchkrow and Yanmega are most likely to be nominated for BL. I must say, I'm quite surprised about Ludicolo.
EDIT: About a week ago, Manaphy was voted Uber with 57% of the vote, but they're finally at the point where they shove all the suspects together once more. So we've now got Garchomp, Latios, Deoxys-E, Shaymin-S and Manaphy in OU again. Deoxys-L and Ho-oh are no longer going to be tested, and Wynaut and Wobbuffet aren't being retested either.
May I ask if it would be okay to discuss Garchomp's impact in OU for a couple of weeks? I know it says not to in the OP, but due to the current circumstances, I think it should be allowed briefly, until the testing is over. Do you think he's now less dangerous that he's in an environment with Bullet Punch Scizor, Latias and Latios? Do you think with Deoxys-E's support he's more dangerous than ever?
The reason Milotic is UnderUsed, is because, well, it's Under Used in OU.
It was OU in Advance, and the beginning of DP, but it has now decreased in usage (probably because of the decrease in accuracy of Hypnosis in Platinum).
In April, this year, Milotic was the 56 most used Pokemon in OU. That isn't high enough for it to be OU, so it's UU.
It was slightly less used than Porygon 2, Yanmega, Gallade, Donphan and Abomasnow, and it got slightly more usage than Roserade, Clefable, Uxie, Ludicolo and Ambipom. None of those are OU.
Rewind back to October 2007, and Milotic was 38th, well into OU. Infact, in October 2007, Milotic had more usage than the likes of Suicune and Zapdos.
To sum up, Milotic used to be OU, but it has now dropped in usage, so it's UU. Why did it drop in usage? Most believe it's because of the accuracy drop in Hypnosis (this may also be why Yanmega dropped out). Just because Milotic isn't OU, it doesn't mean it isn't good, and that you shouldn't use it. Nearly all UUs are good Pokemon, it's just they're not the very best.
If you're really that bothered, popularize Milotic on the Smogon server on Shoddy Battle. If you popularize it enough, it should get enough usage to be OU again. However, this would be an extremely hard task to achieve. I'd suggest you just abuse Milotic in UU, where it's one of best.
EDIT: They're nominating new suspects for UU. Looks like Crobat, Mismagius, Ludicolo, Shaymin, Honchkrow and Yanmega are most likely to be nominated for BL. I must say, I'm quite surprised about Ludicolo.
EDIT: About a week ago, Manaphy was voted Uber with 57% of the vote, but they're finally at the point where they shove all the suspects together once more. So we've now got Garchomp, Latios, Deoxys-E, Shaymin-S and Manaphy in OU again. Deoxys-L and Ho-oh are no longer going to be tested, and Wynaut and Wobbuffet aren't being retested either.
May I ask if it would be okay to discuss Garchomp's impact in OU for a couple of weeks? I know it says not to in the OP, but due to the current circumstances, I think it should be allowed briefly, until the testing is over. Do you think he's now less dangerous that he's in an environment with Bullet Punch Scizor, Latias and Latios? Do you think with Deoxys-E's support he's more dangerous than ever?
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Now that Deoxys-S is banned, playing on the Suspect ladder is much more fun, as it was nearly impossible to stop it without Brick Breakers or Choice Scarf Skymin.
I honestly don't think Garchomp is that broken in this current Suspect metagame. He is easily beaten if it isn't Scarfed by the faster Pokemon in the meta, and when it's Scarfed, it's easy to lure into Outrage.
Now, I'll copy-paste what I said in the other thread into this one.
Anyway, Heatran has died down incredibly since it's prime time, as nearly every special wall counters it, like Tyranitar, Snorlax, Blissey, and even stuff like Gyarados takes it. It isn't even a good anti-metagame Pokemon any more, due to the "switch out" abilities Scizor has. In Suspect, though, it can be effective with a Choice Scarf later in the game. Gengar is another Pokemon like this, but its usage is slowly coming back thanks to the wave of Hidden Power Fire + Substitute + Shadow Ball + Focus Blast Gengars that can actually handle Scizor!
Vaporeon is really helpful with Rotom-A. It can pass Wish and the Electric-type moves aimed at it go straight to Rotom, who can easily tank them. "Gimmicky" sets like Substitute + Charge Beam on Rotom are being tossed aside for the TrickScarf set and general support sets with Will-O-Wisp. Vaporeon and Rotom-A can take nearly everything in the metagame, Scizor, Heatran, Gyarados, Metagross, and others
I honestly don't think Garchomp is that broken in this current Suspect metagame. He is easily beaten if it isn't Scarfed by the faster Pokemon in the meta, and when it's Scarfed, it's easy to lure into Outrage.
Now, I'll copy-paste what I said in the other thread into this one.
Anyway, Heatran has died down incredibly since it's prime time, as nearly every special wall counters it, like Tyranitar, Snorlax, Blissey, and even stuff like Gyarados takes it. It isn't even a good anti-metagame Pokemon any more, due to the "switch out" abilities Scizor has. In Suspect, though, it can be effective with a Choice Scarf later in the game. Gengar is another Pokemon like this, but its usage is slowly coming back thanks to the wave of Hidden Power Fire + Substitute + Shadow Ball + Focus Blast Gengars that can actually handle Scizor!
Vaporeon is really helpful with Rotom-A. It can pass Wish and the Electric-type moves aimed at it go straight to Rotom, who can easily tank them. "Gimmicky" sets like Substitute + Charge Beam on Rotom are being tossed aside for the TrickScarf set and general support sets with Will-O-Wisp. Vaporeon and Rotom-A can take nearly everything in the metagame, Scizor, Heatran, Gyarados, Metagross, and others
Cousin_Dan
Banned
Well Garchomp is probably manageable in OU but the amount that it overcentralises the metagame means he really isn't worth it. Plus he would just make the steel centralisation that's already there even worse.
SHUCKLE MAN
98th
Also, bear in mind, Garchomp is currently in a metagame with Deoxys-E, Latios, Shaymin-S and Manaphy, so obviously, he'll be slightly more manageable. However, if those 4 Pokemon get banned again, Garchomp will probably have to be rebanned also.
However, I want to know if we're actually allowed to discuss Garchomp given the special circumstances of the next few weeks. I don't want an infraction! :0
However, I want to know if we're actually allowed to discuss Garchomp given the special circumstances of the next few weeks. I don't want an infraction! :0
Excitable Boy
is a metaphor
Not nessesarily. Not many Pokemon enjoy eating a 300 Base Power Earthquake (after STAB and weakness). Then again, Skarmory flies above it and Scizor is only neutral. Though you'd better hope it doesn't have Fire Fang.
I think that we are allowed to discuss teh Chompzorz for now, given the circumstances. The mods are (hopefully) not robots that give out infractions whenever the word Garchomp appears in a thread.
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Cousin_Dan
Banned
Well it's more to do with the whole 'being able to resist Outrage' thing that would make the Steel overcentralisation worse since it really isn't good for the life expectancy of any non-steels (or several steels for that matter). Then we have the fact that Outrage can be worked around since Chomp is locked into a move so it's best to resist that.
I'll agree with you on the discussion of Chomp too. This isn't the same spewing out reasons for his banning that got discussion on him banned then we have the fact that he is being tested at the moment and therefore relevant.
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kinder surprise
Banned
As has been mentioned Chomp us manageable but it does overcentralize, I enjoy it in OU, there is more 'improvisation, involved in stopping it. Puts more strain on prediction and team building. Sorts the men out from the boys.
SHUCKLE MAN
98th
Yeah, as long as we don't let our discussions degrade in the same fashion as they did for the first 200 pages of this thread, we should be fine.
I must say, in this metagame we have at the moment, Deoxys-E is probably the most threatening, in my opinion. I mean, it's widely considered the best lead in Ubers, let alone OU!
But, it's quite amazing if you think about it. If you look back at the stats from 2006 and 2007, before we discovered what Deoxys-E was truly capable of, we see that he barely got any usage in Ubers, and was close to falling into UU the first few months he was in OU! Now look at him! Some months he's been used more than Deoxys-F in Ubers.
Also, by examining the statistics, we can see that Electrode leads became very popular. I think this is largely due to the success of Deoxys-E. You can see correlation between their popularity if you look back through the stats archives.
I must say, in this metagame we have at the moment, Deoxys-E is probably the most threatening, in my opinion. I mean, it's widely considered the best lead in Ubers, let alone OU!
But, it's quite amazing if you think about it. If you look back at the stats from 2006 and 2007, before we discovered what Deoxys-E was truly capable of, we see that he barely got any usage in Ubers, and was close to falling into UU the first few months he was in OU! Now look at him! Some months he's been used more than Deoxys-F in Ubers.
Also, by examining the statistics, we can see that Electrode leads became very popular. I think this is largely due to the success of Deoxys-E. You can see correlation between their popularity if you look back through the stats archives.
BlueMew7
what up daddy in the house
What's done is done. Garchomp is an uber. Personally, I am fine with him being an Uber. If you think about, there really isn't a place to put Garchomp. He is too powerful as an OU, and a little too weak as an uber. That is only my opinion and I will not argue about it. Let us just leave this topic.