Changes to 4th Gen Competitive Battling NO GARCHOMP DISCUSSION!

[Skaisdead]

Tiers are for queers? Wow, that's REAL mature.
They didn't make this up. It's commonly used to oppose tourney fanboys.
Tiers are based on usage. Those Pokemon are there usually because of bad typing, they are outclassed by another Pokemon, lack of a good movepool, they didn't get very many upgrades this generation, etc.
They aren't based on usage, they are based on what Smogon decides them to be. Don't try to tell me that more people use Salamance because they like it better than Dragonite.
Take Milotic for example. An EXTREMELY good Pokemon in the third generation. Did the fourth generation really give it any upgrades? No, not really. So it's not used as much.
It's used less because it didn't get anything new in Gen IV? Wrong. It's used less because other Pokemon got better moves, as well as the fact that most other bulky waters do a better job of sponging.
And I'm sick and tired of Karen's quote being thrown around. It actually was pretty cool at first, but with all the people using it in their signature to seem poetic or whater it just lost its value.
Irrelevant
Either way, good luck using a Beautifly against a Salamence.
Beautifly was designed for the metagame. It has a lower BST than Porygon, which evolves twice.

Comments in bold.

 

[BynineB]

They're not underused, they're never used.

Nobody said they were bad.

 

[clone1]

I use NU's all the time. They're fun to use and they catch people off guard.

 

[COKTAL]

It's just what NU is, Never Used. Some people see it that there are pokemon that can do a better job at whatever they plan to use said pokemon for. This just gives them a better chance to win in a battle.

 

[Ampy]

They aren't never used, my constant team has 3 NUs on it... 2 OUs and 1 BL

 

[Ammako]

Just because a Pokemon is NU doesn't mean that it's bad. Tiers are decided by usage; if everyone suddenly stopped using Salamence, it would become NU (or more likely, BL), but it wouldn't become a worse Pokemon.

And what makes them "never used?"
The fact they are not as good as the Over Used.

If everyone stops using Salamence, it would still be in Over Used, since it couldn't be in "Never Used" because it has too much power and stuff.

 

[I like Pikachu]

Yes they're bad, horrible, and a dilemma to use! Most of them are like that. However, some are good should moved up a notch like Medicham, Floatzel, and even Armaldo! The list gets countless! But those who I personally think in my opinion should not get moved SUCK.

 

[Itsuki]

NU is just Never Used as many people said. Some NUs should be UU imo. I play UU on Shoddy and use a few NUs (I also reach the Top 50 several times, right now I'm ~12, so I can attest to my success). They also have an NU Server. Its pretty fun.

However I'm not telling you that they're bad in OU or Ubers. =]

Here are a few Pokemon that are very good but people don't realize it.

Articuno Who cares about Stealth Rock, a good player can utilize it with entry hazards and wreck teams.
Cloyster Definately good. Offensive versions can OHKO Roserade and 2HKO Yanmega as well as set up Spikes and Rapid Spin entry hazards away.
Entei Calm Mind + Substitute is really great. Its Speed and power can destroy nsuspecting teams.
Kangaskhan My favorite NU. Choice Band Return destroys entire teams alone that do not carry Tangrowth, Donphan, steel types, etc.
Lapras Curse/Toxic/Waterfall/Rest is a really great set. However a really cool one is the Mix Dragon Dancer. LO Waterfall/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Dragon Dance OHKOs Tangrowth, Altaria, Donphan. 2HKOs Milotic(with SR) and Slowbro. Waterfall just hits hard after a Dragon Dance.
Ninetales Seriously. Fire Blast/Energy Ball/Hidden Power Rock/Nasty Plot can sweep on its own. Many people use Regibro/Milotic and lose to it.
Regigigas Very very uncommon but very cool. Milotic and Registeel cannot break its Substitute and it can Toxic/Thunder Wave stuff.
Walrein Great in UU Hail. Destroys entire teams if played right.

There are a lot more NUs that can be used to great success.

 

[currymaniac]

just like to say that gardevoir has s atack higher than 115, possibly 125.

 

[James Bondage]

There is a site I frequent (not Smogon) that has Ho-Oh as a consideration for being moved DOWN to OU.

How does everyoe think this would effect the metagame if this was considered in Standard OU by all of the major sites?

 

[goldfan]

I think it would be really hard to tell without testing. On the one hand I can see how Stealth Rock, Bulky Waters and Choice Band Tyranitar can put enough pressure in Ho-Oh to make it difficult to operate. On the other hand, it's beastly Special Defense, access to Roost and Sacred Fire's 50% Burn rate put me off. I'd be interested to see the effects it has.

 

[BaldWombat]

I think it would be really hard to tell without testing. On the one hand I can see how Stealth Rock, Bulky Waters and Choice Band Tyranitar can put enough pressure in Ho-Oh to make it difficult to operate. On the other hand, it's beastly Special Defense, access to Roost and Sacred Fire's 50% Burn rate put me off. I'd be interested to see the effects it has.

I have exactly the same feelings on Ho-oh as Gold does. Stealth Rock is obviously the main reason that it is getting consideration to get moved down but 106/130/90/110/154/90 is a very impressive base stat sheet. A 100 base power STAB move with a 50% burn chance on something that is going to force a lot of physical attacker to switch in on it is kind of scary when you think about it. It has a good movepool and can hit from both sides of the spectrum very hard. It would make an excellent mixed scarfer if not for SR. All in all I think it prolly belongs in Uber, although I am not opposed to it getting a test as it is a personal favorite of mine.

 

[James Bondage]

I think it would be really hard to tell without testing. On the one hand I can see how Stealth Rock, Bulky Waters and Choice Band Tyranitar can put enough pressure in Ho-Oh to make it difficult to operate. On the other hand, it's beastly Special Defense, access to Roost and Sacred Fire's 50% Burn rate put me off. I'd be interested to see the effects it has.

I have exactly the same feelings on Ho-oh as Gold does. Stealth Rock is obviously the main reason that it is getting consideration to get moved down but 106/130/90/110/154/90 is a very impressive base stat sheet. A 100 base power STAB move with a 50% burn chance on something that is going to force a lot of physical attacker to switch in on it is kind of scary when you think about it. It has a good movepool and can hit from both sides of the spectrum very hard. It would make an excellent mixed scarfer if not for SR. All in all I think it prolly belongs in Uber, although I am not opposed to it getting a test as it is a personal favorite of mine.

I only posted this as discussion, but IMO, I think it should stay Uber.

SR does pose a threat, and makes it's unreasonably high SpDef not all that scarey, however, even without Scarf, running it with Baton Passed Speed Boosts from Ninjask eliminates the need for Scar, It could hold something as simple as a Sitrus Berry to regain some HP, plus with Roost at it's disposal, the SR damage probably wouldn't matter, due to the majority of teams running a Rapid Spinner. I know my theory is situational, but it would make for Ho-Oh to rapidly be abused in OU, and would find it's way back into the Uber tier. The only real threats I can think of in OU for it now might be Gyarados IF it can get off a Dragon Dance, or T-tar, provided it either catches it on a switch in, or is running Scarf itself, or Infernape using Stone Edge.

 

[J.T.]

The Ho-oh discussion was one I saw brought up on GameFAQs. The one guy fighting for a drop to OU ended up resorting to insults once he began to lose the "debate" (it's GameFAQs, go figure).

I think Sacred Fire's a huge reason to keep it Uber; 50% burn chance, high base attack, and coming off of 130 Attack is incredibly powerful. In addition, it's bulkier than Zapdos, especially on the special side, and has way more power going for it. Its speed is average-ish for something of its bulk and power. I don't really see it dropping into OU any time soon.

 

[James Bondage]

The Ho-oh discussion was one I saw brought up on GameFAQs. The one guy fighting for a drop to OU ended up resorting to insults once he began to lose the "debate" (it's GameFAQs, go figure).

I think Sacred Fire's a huge reason to keep it Uber; 50% burn chance, high base attack, and coming off of 130 Attack is incredibly powerful. In addition, it's bulkier than Zapdos, especially on the special side, and has way more power going for it. Its speed is average-ish for something of its bulk and power. I don't really see it dropping into OU any time soon.

My version of it came from PE2K. I think the only arguement for it being OU is it being SR weak...Otherwise, It's still amazing, and with the prominance of Rapid Spinners (most teams have one), SR isn't all that big of a threat.

 

[PokeN3rd]

I'm sorry, but I haven't seen many teams running rapid spinners lately. It seems to me most teams just work around SR. Has anyone else seen a lot of spinners? If they really are that prominent, than I think Ho-Oh could find itself staying Uber.

 

[randomspot555]

I'm sorry, but I haven't seen many teams running rapid spinners lately. It seems to me most teams just work around SR. Has anyone else seen a lot of spinners? If they really are that prominent, than I think Ho-Oh could find itself staying Uber.

Stealth Rock basically helps keep a check on Gyarados, Salamence, Dragonite, Zapdos, and many others. It also turns many 2hko into OHKO.

While it's entirely possible to build a team that isn't hindered by Stealth Rock, Rapid Spinning also gets rid of Spikes/Toxic Spikes and Leech Seed.

An attest to how good Rapid Spinning is is also how many ghosts, particularly the Rotom forms on Shoddy, are used. Partially to block Rapid Spin.

 

[PokeN3rd]

I'm pretty sure I said nothing about SR aside from most teams work around it. :/

 

[goldfan]

He was just adding to the discussion Poken3rd, The problem with RS is it is a free chance for your opponent to set up. Well, I got rid of Stealth Rock, but Salamence got a +1 and raped me... oops. Most teams just can't afford the turn, so they play around it instead.

 

[I like Pikachu]

NU is just Never Used as many people said. Some NUs should be UU imo. I play UU on Shoddy and use a few NUs (I also reach the Top 50 several times, right now I'm ~12, so I can attest to my success). They also have an NU Server. Its pretty fun.

However I'm not telling you that they're bad in OU or Ubers. =]

Here are a few Pokemon that are very good but people don't realize it.

Articuno Who cares about Stealth Rock, a good player can utilize it with entry hazards and wreck teams.
Cloyster Definately good. Offensive versions can OHKO Roserade and 2HKO Yanmega as well as set up Spikes and Rapid Spin entry hazards away.
Entei Calm Mind + Substitute is really great. Its Speed and power can destroy nsuspecting teams.
Kangaskhan My favorite NU. Choice Band Return destroys entire teams alone that do not carry Tangrowth, Donphan, steel types, etc.
Lapras Curse/Toxic/Waterfall/Rest is a really great set. However a really cool one is the Mix Dragon Dancer. LO Waterfall/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Dragon Dance OHKOs Tangrowth, Altaria, Donphan. 2HKOs Milotic(with SR) and Slowbro. Waterfall just hits hard after a Dragon Dance.
Ninetales Seriously. Fire Blast/Energy Ball/Hidden Power Rock/Nasty Plot can sweep on its own. Many people use Regibro/Milotic and lose to it.
Regigigas Very very uncommon but very cool. Milotic and Registeel cannot break its Substitute and it can Toxic/Thunder Wave stuff.
Walrein Great in UU Hail. Destroys entire teams if played right.

There are a lot more NUs that can be used to great success.

I would agree with you on the Kangaskhan, Lapras, and Walrein they should be moved to UU along with MANY other Pokemon so here what I was telling: I actually said that some NU's like Bibarel and Butterfree SUCK and should stay there and while others like Floatzel, Medicham, and Lapras should be moved up due to stats, movepool, or both Lilicky: Excellent stats NOT named Speed and an AWESOME movepoool although its NOT for standard, it has HUGE potential as a sweeper/tank.