To be honest, neither Mega Charizard form is all that broken on their own (although Charizard X is pretty close, while Charizard Y by contrast has seen talk of dropping from S-Rank in Smogon's OU viability rankings). It's the insane mind games that Charizard plays with its opponents when it steps onto the field that really makes it so hard to deal with. You can make educated guesses as to which Charizard form you're dealing with, but until it Mega evolves, you can never really be completely certain. If you guess wrong, you're probably going to lose a Pokemon or more. If there was some sort of heads up as to which Charizard form you were dealing with at the time, they'd be far easier to deal with.
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Charizard X Discussion
- Thread starter Amaan
- Start date
No, neither will be suspected, Zard X is easily checked by quite a lot of things and ZardY can be stopped by special walls and is not that good once drought is gone.
Pinsir may be suspected
Directed at the above two posters.
Yzard is insanely powerful. Base 159 SpAtk is nothing to laugh at, especially since it's higher than Kyogres. You say that special walls hard counter him? Try again. AV Careful TTar is 2HKOd by Focus Blast. That means that you can't even switch in safely. Heatran? EQ says hi. Now you're gonna say that Blissey counters him. Yes. She does, just like every other special attacker in the game. Even so, what can she do back? Toxic? PP Stall? Those are easily countered by Conkeldurr. Those two in tandem form an extremely solid offensive core.
Also, if drought runs out, just switch. No one is forcing you to stay in unless it's Wobbuffet or Gothitelle.
Charizard @ Yzardite
Hasty nature
Blaze>Drought
4 Atk 252 SpAtk 252 Spe
-Earthquake
-Focus Blast
-Solar Beam
-Flamethrower/Fire Blast
Use this exact set on the ladder and tell me it's not overcentralizing. Then I might yield. Untill then, don't say Yzardite isn't OP.
Yzard is insanely powerful. Base 159 SpAtk is nothing to laugh at, especially since it's higher than Kyogres. You say that special walls hard counter him? Try again. AV Careful TTar is 2HKOd by Focus Blast. That means that you can't even switch in safely. Heatran? EQ says hi. Now you're gonna say that Blissey counters him. Yes. She does, just like every other special attacker in the game. Even so, what can she do back? Toxic? PP Stall? Those are easily countered by Conkeldurr. Those two in tandem form an extremely solid offensive core.
Also, if drought runs out, just switch. No one is forcing you to stay in unless it's Wobbuffet or Gothitelle.
Charizard @ Yzardite
Hasty nature
Blaze>Drought
4 Atk 252 SpAtk 252 Spe
-Earthquake
-Focus Blast
-Solar Beam
-Flamethrower/Fire Blast
Use this exact set on the ladder and tell me it's not overcentralizing. Then I might yield. Untill then, don't say Yzardite isn't OP.
The Imposter
=[
@Clone: That set can't touch Latias/Latios, Multiscale Dragonite, et cetera. Stealth Rock cripples it, meaning that if your Sun goes out you have to switch, coming in to clip your wings again. It's also just barely fast enough for the metagame, meaning that it is extremely easily revenge killed. Yzard is powerful, yes, but the number of things that are on a large number of teams that can stop Zard is just too great.
You seem to be confused as to the definition of overcentralizing. Something that is overcentralizing makes the metagame revolve around it. Think Mega Kangaskhan before it was banned. People ran otherwise useless sets like Rocky Helmet Sableye just to counter it. If it weren't for Kanga, those sets would never be run and would have no place in the metagame. A team without one of those was bad and easily swept by Kangaskhan. Yzard has very few counters, yes, but it has plenty of checks, and those checks and counters are viable in the OU metagame as is. Besides, once its precious Sun is out, it's forced to switch out against nearly any Water type, potentially bringing it into Stealth Rock.
It is not broken, either. The standard definition of something that is broken is that it can be put onto basically any team with few to no synergy issues. Almost any team without that broken Pokemon will be inferior to one that has it. An example of something that was broken is Genesect. It had beautiful synergy with almost every Pokemon in OU, and could easily grab momentum for any team whilst pressuring almost every OU Pokemon. Yzard is powerful, yes, but it is hardly broken. It absolutely needs Rapid Spin/Defog support, which can't always be put into a team without compromising synergy. In addition, teams with it are not inherently "better". Plenty of teams have no place for Yzard, and often times it cannot even be used if another Mega is being used as a late-game sweeper.
Honestly, it reminds me of a beefed-up version of Gen 5 Hydreigon. Hydreigon could genuinely claim to have no counters, but it had somewhat middling speed and could be easily checked. That's Yzard in this generation, in my opinion. Very hard to switch into if you predict the wrong move, but easily checked and revenge killed.
I don't even know why we're talking about Charizard Y in a Charizard X thread, but I just wanted to point out that Zard Y isn't broken.
You seem to be confused as to the definition of overcentralizing. Something that is overcentralizing makes the metagame revolve around it. Think Mega Kangaskhan before it was banned. People ran otherwise useless sets like Rocky Helmet Sableye just to counter it. If it weren't for Kanga, those sets would never be run and would have no place in the metagame. A team without one of those was bad and easily swept by Kangaskhan. Yzard has very few counters, yes, but it has plenty of checks, and those checks and counters are viable in the OU metagame as is. Besides, once its precious Sun is out, it's forced to switch out against nearly any Water type, potentially bringing it into Stealth Rock.
It is not broken, either. The standard definition of something that is broken is that it can be put onto basically any team with few to no synergy issues. Almost any team without that broken Pokemon will be inferior to one that has it. An example of something that was broken is Genesect. It had beautiful synergy with almost every Pokemon in OU, and could easily grab momentum for any team whilst pressuring almost every OU Pokemon. Yzard is powerful, yes, but it is hardly broken. It absolutely needs Rapid Spin/Defog support, which can't always be put into a team without compromising synergy. In addition, teams with it are not inherently "better". Plenty of teams have no place for Yzard, and often times it cannot even be used if another Mega is being used as a late-game sweeper.
Honestly, it reminds me of a beefed-up version of Gen 5 Hydreigon. Hydreigon could genuinely claim to have no counters, but it had somewhat middling speed and could be easily checked. That's Yzard in this generation, in my opinion. Very hard to switch into if you predict the wrong move, but easily checked and revenge killed.
I don't even know why we're talking about Charizard Y in a Charizard X thread, but I just wanted to point out that Zard Y isn't broken.
No, it really isn't overcentralizing. No more than any other ridiculously powerful wallbreaker, at least. Charizard Y may be able to 2HKO nearly everything and may have few solid counters, but so do a lot of other Pokemon. Charizard Y is not just something you can slap on a team and expect it to immediately break the game in half. You have to be very diligent with your Defog/Rapid Spin support to keep it healthy, even moreso than Charizard X since it loses twice the health to Stealth Rock every time it switches in after the Mega evolution has taken place. This may not be a problem for some Stealth Rock-weak Pokemon, but for a wallbreaker like Charizard Y that often switches in and out to do its job, it's a lot more of a burden. It relies on Focus Blast to beat a lot of checks, and while it may be enough most of the time, it still leaves Charizard Y with about a 1/3 chance to screw up and get killed in return. Charizard X doesn't have that problem since its most common offensive moves all have 100% accuracy.
It often struggles against defensive teams because Chansey/Blissey are so common on them, and each shuts it down (outside of Flare Blitz, which is pretty suicidal in general and doesn't actually do well against Chansey). After it has Mega evolved already, specially defensive Hippowdon (another commonplace on stall and Sand-based teams) walls it decently enough. Bulkier variants of Charizard X can take it on easily and even switch in completely safely if Stealth Rock is off the field (and even if it isn't, Focus Blast needs to hit twice to 2HKO after SR). Goodra is hardly tickled by Charizard Y, even the occasional Dragon Pulse (which doesn't even 3HKO), and it effortlessly 2HKOs back with Thunderbolt (and has a good shot at 2HKOing with Draco Meteor). Latias and Latios are very common Defoggers at the moment, and either can switch in and threaten Charizard Y with Thunderbolt or STAB Draco Meteor. Even 4/0 Latias can't even be 2HKOed outside of Dragon Pulse if it has Roost, while Latios can still take a Fire Blast pretty easily and hit even harder than Latias. Both outspeed, which makes Charizard Y's job a lot harder. In fact, its speed is one of the biggest pressures on it when facing offensive teams in general. Most offensive teams are filled to the brim with Pokemon like Garchomp, Keldeo, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Terrakion, Deoxys-S, Landorus, Thundurus, Latios, and a myriad of slower Choice Scarf users that can outspeed it and deal heavy damage to it or outright KO. It might be able to 1-2HKO nearly everything on an average offensive team, but when it's facing Stealth Rock and constant offensive pressure, it's not going to be breaking them down very easily. Let's also not forget how much more insanely tame Charizard Y becomes once Sun runs out (which happens pretty often, especially if you have to switch it out and then back in again before the previous Sun timer ends). Charizard Y has it share of checks and even a few real counters just like so many other Pokemon do, and it by itself is certainly not overcentralizing.
By the way, don't use Earthquake on Charizard Y. It doesn't really help with much. Offensive Heatran is hit harder by Focus Blast anyway, and specially defensive variants are 2HKOed regardless. It's a safer option, but that's about it. Besides, it's not like defensive Heatran does much in return anyway. Generally, the worst thing it can do is poison you with Toxic or hit you with Ancient Power (which only 2HKOs), neither of which are super common moves on Heatran. There are those occasional defensive Heatran that run Stone Edge, which I've seen a few times among tournament players, but those are far and few between. You'd be far better off running Roost to let Charizard Y recover Stealth Rock damage whenever it gets a chance, maybe switch into a few things more easily with its solid special bulk and resistances, and just stay alive in general. You can even stall out the occasional Ancient Power Heatran in case Focus Blast misses and you need to recover from that. You could use Dragon Pulse as well to hit random Dragons harder. Either would be better than Earthquake.
Of course, this isn't a Charizard Y thread and thus this may be a little off topic, but no, I don't think it's overcentralizing. It's very good and extremely powerful in its own right, but I find myself far more worried about Charizard in general with its "Hey, guess what form I am" mind games or other offensive threats altogether than specifically Charizard Y when I'm teambuilding.
EDIT: As the above poster mentioned, I also think that in order to truly be considered "overcentralizing," you'd have to see metagame trends that actually centralize around Charizard-Y. I just don't see that right now; most of the common checks and counters to Charizard Y out there are just good Pokemon in general that would probably get used a lot even if it didn't exist. Now, you might have a point if we started seeing a lot of Moltres usage or something, but that's not the case.
It often struggles against defensive teams because Chansey/Blissey are so common on them, and each shuts it down (outside of Flare Blitz, which is pretty suicidal in general and doesn't actually do well against Chansey). After it has Mega evolved already, specially defensive Hippowdon (another commonplace on stall and Sand-based teams) walls it decently enough. Bulkier variants of Charizard X can take it on easily and even switch in completely safely if Stealth Rock is off the field (and even if it isn't, Focus Blast needs to hit twice to 2HKO after SR). Goodra is hardly tickled by Charizard Y, even the occasional Dragon Pulse (which doesn't even 3HKO), and it effortlessly 2HKOs back with Thunderbolt (and has a good shot at 2HKOing with Draco Meteor). Latias and Latios are very common Defoggers at the moment, and either can switch in and threaten Charizard Y with Thunderbolt or STAB Draco Meteor. Even 4/0 Latias can't even be 2HKOed outside of Dragon Pulse if it has Roost, while Latios can still take a Fire Blast pretty easily and hit even harder than Latias. Both outspeed, which makes Charizard Y's job a lot harder. In fact, its speed is one of the biggest pressures on it when facing offensive teams in general. Most offensive teams are filled to the brim with Pokemon like Garchomp, Keldeo, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Terrakion, Deoxys-S, Landorus, Thundurus, Latios, and a myriad of slower Choice Scarf users that can outspeed it and deal heavy damage to it or outright KO. It might be able to 1-2HKO nearly everything on an average offensive team, but when it's facing Stealth Rock and constant offensive pressure, it's not going to be breaking them down very easily. Let's also not forget how much more insanely tame Charizard Y becomes once Sun runs out (which happens pretty often, especially if you have to switch it out and then back in again before the previous Sun timer ends). Charizard Y has it share of checks and even a few real counters just like so many other Pokemon do, and it by itself is certainly not overcentralizing.
By the way, don't use Earthquake on Charizard Y. It doesn't really help with much. Offensive Heatran is hit harder by Focus Blast anyway, and specially defensive variants are 2HKOed regardless. It's a safer option, but that's about it. Besides, it's not like defensive Heatran does much in return anyway. Generally, the worst thing it can do is poison you with Toxic or hit you with Ancient Power (which only 2HKOs), neither of which are super common moves on Heatran. There are those occasional defensive Heatran that run Stone Edge, which I've seen a few times among tournament players, but those are far and few between. You'd be far better off running Roost to let Charizard Y recover Stealth Rock damage whenever it gets a chance, maybe switch into a few things more easily with its solid special bulk and resistances, and just stay alive in general. You can even stall out the occasional Ancient Power Heatran in case Focus Blast misses and you need to recover from that. You could use Dragon Pulse as well to hit random Dragons harder. Either would be better than Earthquake.
Of course, this isn't a Charizard Y thread and thus this may be a little off topic, but no, I don't think it's overcentralizing. It's very good and extremely powerful in its own right, but I find myself far more worried about Charizard in general with its "Hey, guess what form I am" mind games or other offensive threats altogether than specifically Charizard Y when I'm teambuilding.
EDIT: As the above poster mentioned, I also think that in order to truly be considered "overcentralizing," you'd have to see metagame trends that actually centralize around Charizard-Y. I just don't see that right now; most of the common checks and counters to Charizard Y out there are just good Pokemon in general that would probably get used a lot even if it didn't exist. Now, you might have a point if we started seeing a lot of Moltres usage or something, but that's not the case.
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Its funny cause its not even the best mega in OU according to high level smogon players.
Almost everyone in the OU viability ranking believe its actually a A+ not S, you don't ban A+ pokes.
Just to further prove my point
Latiad and Latios walls this thing to hell.
Dragonite says hi.
Oh, Earthquake on YardY? Hello Air Balloon Heatran. Earthquake also severly limits Charizard Y even more.
Blissey/Chansey
Base 100 Speed? Revenged by Garchomp, Pinsir, Terakion, Keldeo.
AV Tyranitar
Goodra
Stealth Rock
10+ checks and a 4x weakness to rocks does NOT warrant a ban
Xard isn't the best mega either. Pinsir is the best, and he's not even suspect worthy.
Yzardite pops the balloon on the switch in. EQ limits nothing, as Dragon Pulse/Air Slash bring very limited coverage, both of which are out damaged by fire blast unless it's a 4x super effective hit.
I've already covered AV TTar. Focus Blast 2HKOs.
Blissey/ Chansey can't do anything back, also covered.
If you're gonna mention something, make sure you know what you're talking about. I specifically mentioned everything that's still in your quote.
Everything I cut out is fair game.
At least Imposter Knows how to debate. If you're gonna argue with me, do it correctly
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How can you know for sure that your going to break the balloon.
Chansey/Blissey uses Toxic/Thunder Wave, crippling him for the rest of the game.
...because Heatran can't do anything back...?
Thunder Wave, maybe. Toxic, not exactly. As long as you keep hazards down, there's nothing stopping him from switching out to stop the timer.
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So did my last post just get completely ignored or something?
And lol, Chansey and Blissey will beat Charizard Y every time outside of Flare Blitz gimmicks or hax or something. Seismic Toss 3HKOs and outlasts Roost PP, while Charizard Y has a pretty low chance to 3HKO Blissey with a Sun-boosted Fire blast and an incredibly minimal chance to 3HKO Chansey. Between their own recovery and the low accuracy/PP of Charizard Y's moves, the blobs will win every time outside of blind luck. Toxic ensures that Charizard Y will die quicker while the less common Thunder Wave cripples it altogether and prevents it from doing much of anything anymore, even if it manages to get past Chansey/Blissey by some miracle. Sure, Charizard Y could just switch out, but that just goes to show that Chansey and Blissey do in fact beat you since you're forced to either switch out or eventually lose your Charizard Y.
And lol, Chansey and Blissey will beat Charizard Y every time outside of Flare Blitz gimmicks or hax or something. Seismic Toss 3HKOs and outlasts Roost PP, while Charizard Y has a pretty low chance to 3HKO Blissey with a Sun-boosted Fire blast and an incredibly minimal chance to 3HKO Chansey. Between their own recovery and the low accuracy/PP of Charizard Y's moves, the blobs will win every time outside of blind luck. Toxic ensures that Charizard Y will die quicker while the less common Thunder Wave cripples it altogether and prevents it from doing much of anything anymore, even if it manages to get past Chansey/Blissey by some miracle. Sure, Charizard Y could just switch out, but that just goes to show that Chansey and Blissey do in fact beat you since you're forced to either switch out or eventually lose your Charizard Y.
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KillerDraco
Well-Known Member
Nah, as far as I can tell, it's just gone down to certain people having a bias for one MegaZard over the other. Different Zards for different people, though.
Heck, at this point, this thread might as well become a general "(Mega) Charizard" thread since it seems to have turned into a debate between the two Zards. Plus, in the end, the fact that Charizard does have two Mega Evolutions does help play into its unpredictability, since you never know for certain which Zard it'll be until it does Mega Evolve. The two Mega Evolutions may be wildly different in terms of roles, but they technically are the same Pokemon... again, technically.
jesusfreak94 said:
I missed it due to the page over. You brought up good points, I'll admit that (and somewhat changed my mind). In regards to Blissey though, what business does Yzardite have in staying in anyways? Blissey walls the hell out of all special attackers not named Keldeo or already set up CM Psyshock users. Yes, Blissey can pretty much cripple with status, but why stay in in the first place?
I also saw you say not to run EQ. Roost is really the only other viable option, as Dragon Pulse is outdamaged by Fire Blast in the sun, since it will never hit super effectively. Since Yzard can act as a wall breaker, why not all why not do just that? Taking out Heatran reliably is never a bad thing, especially when his excellent defensive typing allows him to tank many special and physical hits like a boss. Having him removed allows, say, CB Scizor to sweep the remainder of the opponents team if they don't have Rotom W. That's just one example, but I'm sure there's more. Yzard acts as a perfect lure to Heatran anyways, so why not take advantage?
@Draco: if you want, I could make a Yzard thread tomorrow, but I don't see why urchins thread can't be for both, seeing how we've basically shifted that topic over to the other Zard.
The Imposter
=[
Those two things are both wrong and have flawed reason.
1. The definition of a counter is something that can reliably force out a Pokemon in any given scenario. Saying that a Pokemon does not counter the other because they can switch out is flawed logic and false. Especially in the case of Yzard, who hates switching out due to the omnipresence of Stealth Rock.
2. Dragon Pulse is used to hit Latios, Latias, etc. who would otherwise wall you. It's a situational move at best, but it does have use.
We're not trying to say that it's bad. It's a great wallbreaker, and we know that. It's just not broken.
Latios, Latias, Dragonite, Goodra, and bulky Charizard X are all examples of Pokemon that give Charizard Y a lot of trouble. Dragon Pulse hits each of these harder than a Sun-boosted Fire Blast and lets you deal with all of those much more easily, bar Assault Vest variants of Goodra.
Because Focus Blast already hits Heatran hard enough as it is. In fact, it even hits the offensive sets even harder. Sure, it can miss, but what is Heatran doing back? Ancient Power isn't all that common, and Charizard Y can take one from pretty much anything but the very rare Specs/LOTran (which never even run Ancient Power to begin with) and stall it out with Roost if you're desperate. Toxic won't kill Charizard Y fast enough, so Heatran will still lose outside of a ridiculous number of misses. Besides that, it can only really get in some chip damage Lava Plume or Roar Charizard Y away, which is going to be doing them very little good provided you were smart with Defog/Rapid Spin.
That's the difference: Roost has a huge amount of utility as a recovery move, and Dragon Pulse lets you beat a few things that would shut you down otherwise, but Earthquake only serves as a more reliable alternative against one Pokemon that you're probably going to beat anyway. It's just not worth it.
Also, Charizard Y is apparently a pretty solid answer to Charizard Y. Huh.
I know it sounds weird, but theres a reason why heatran has beeen running stone edge lately
Also, Cloneblazer, I'll ask the mods if we can change the title to just Charizard Disscussion
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KillerDraco
Well-Known Member
...Are you sure about that? I've seen nothing to suggest any increased usage of Stone Edge on Heatran.
Smogon's February Statistics said:
Stone Edge doesn't even register outside of being lumped into "other" .Source
And if we go by PO statistics, Stone Edge doesn't show up in the January, February, or March statistics (limited as the March statistics may be at this point).
But then again, it may be just based on what you've seen personally. But I haven't seen any Heatrans carrying Stone Edge to deal with MegaZards.
The last couple Heatrans I fought had stone edge so.....
Mr. Reloaded
Cause a pirate is free
Only reason Y is considered better is because he's strong from the getgo, although his biggest weakness lies within Chansey. Whereas X can DD to the point where he can 2hKO the bastard.
Y's problem is weather inducers, X problem is Unaware and bulky water and ground types. All of which are common sites in OU.
Y's problem is weather inducers, X problem is Unaware and bulky water and ground types. All of which are common sites in OU.
Blue Cobra
Bug Trainer
Mega Charizard X and Mega Charizard Y both have very good and also very different qualities.
One of the big difference between the two (apart from their designs) are that Mega Charizard X is very good physical sweeper due to it's ability, Tough Claws and the fact that it can use Dragon Dance. Mega Charizard Y on the other hand, is a very good special sweeper also because of a unique ability in Drought, boosting its Fire moves, removing its Water weakness and makes it able to use Solarbeam instantly.
Game Freak has made an outstanding when it comes to Charizard's Mega Evolutions, as they are so different and so good at the same time.
Personally, Mega Charizard X is my favorite of these two because it is able to utilize Dragon Dance a lot better due to its boosted attack stat, and because it's added Dragon type only gives him 3 weaknesses, as well as x4 resistances to fire and grass moves. He also has a very cool design
One of the big difference between the two (apart from their designs) are that Mega Charizard X is very good physical sweeper due to it's ability, Tough Claws and the fact that it can use Dragon Dance. Mega Charizard Y on the other hand, is a very good special sweeper also because of a unique ability in Drought, boosting its Fire moves, removing its Water weakness and makes it able to use Solarbeam instantly.
Game Freak has made an outstanding when it comes to Charizard's Mega Evolutions, as they are so different and so good at the same time.
Personally, Mega Charizard X is my favorite of these two because it is able to utilize Dragon Dance a lot better due to its boosted attack stat, and because it's added Dragon type only gives him 3 weaknesses, as well as x4 resistances to fire and grass moves. He also has a very cool design
KillerDraco
Well-Known Member
Eh, Y's not really meant to sweep. It functions more as a wall-breaker due to the insane power of its Sun-boosted STAB attacks, alongside the respectable amount of coverage that Solarbeam, Focus Blast, and potentially Dragon Pulse offer. Its speed may not be bad at base 100, but it's also outsped and revenge killed by a decent amount of things. Its only way of boosting that speed is Dragon Dance, which MegaZard X pulls off better due to higher attack and tough claws. This leads MegaZard Y to not bother boosting for a sweep, but rather, just start unleashing its high-powered attacks to bust down anything not named Chansey, Blissey, Assault Vest Goodra, and a few others depending on its coverage.
...A minor terminology difference though.