Cheating on your partner.. is it as wrong as people make it out to be

[iFi Salamander]

The answer is no of course.

But I'm not entirely sure where all of this even arose from.. >_> I just said it was a bad idea.

You stated an idea on the internet, you know what that means. This is how people act when they have other peoples words in verbatim sitting right in front of them. This is why I like arguing in real life better.

 

[Dryzera]

I don't really know to be honest. Looking back, you did just say it was a bad idea. I think I was just directing my general ire with other comments, made by other posters toward you. You got caught in cross-hairs. Oops.

I will address some of those other posts now.

Yes. I am sorry to say but it is your fault. You choose to stay married to an abusive bastage. You choose following your heart(not a bad thing for the most part), You choose to break your vow to the abusive scumbag.. Who when he finds out will have yet another excuse to beat you to death. There is no good reason to cheat.

You break up or divorce BEFORE moving on. More important, if you have the moral high ground, you are entitled to more in a divorce! I'm a husband, I know full well how that works!

It's my fault for choosing to stay with someone abusive? What if I'm pretty low on the socio-economic ladder dude? Divorces cost money. Do you think all women that choose to stay with their abusive husbands are really just a bunch of dumb bitches, and if they're too stupid to get out, they deserve what's coming to them? Sometimes a woman has nowhere else to go, especially if there is kids involved. What's better, staying with your abusive husband, or being a single mom out on the streets? Personally, I'll take a few more beatings before I'd allow my own children to starve.

So then, who's fault is it when you get beat again? The mans? Causation is not justification.

I think it's always your fault for beating another human being, and that there is no excuse to ever beat anyone, but that's because I'm not a terrible person. Sorry we don't see eye to eye on this one, bro.

To recap, I believe that cheating is wrong, most of the time. In rare and special cases, such as a woman that's being abused, I believe that the act is excusable and that it is not fair to make a black and white moralistic judgement against a person in such a situation. Yes, it is still a "bad idea" but that's not really what's at the heart of this discussion. We are debating about whether cheating is wrong. Something being a bad idea is a far cry from it being a moral affront.

 

[Pesky Persian]

Can I just step this conversation back and address one thing? It's not that men aren't as likely to get abused in a relationship. There are plenty of men who end up being the abused. It's more that most men who are abused aren't willing to come out and say they're abused.

But you are right that an abused person can sometimes have trouble getting out of a bad relationship. Some of them will refuse help, some of them are so beaten down that they don't feel like they deserve to leave, some of them are just afraid. It's a really sad situation. Some of them can get away, some can get out of it at the early signs (verbal/emotional abuse), but not all of them. I don't really know what to say about people in abusive relationships cheating. It's kind of a moral grey area.

 

[iFi Salamander]

Can I just step this conversation back and address one thing? It's not that men aren't as likely to get abused in a relationship. There are plenty of men who end up being the abused. It's more that most men who are abused aren't willing to come out and say they're abused.

It is really a testosterone/estrogen thing. That is why only 10% of rape victims are male, and 90% are female. It is the male goal to preserve dominance and pride, hence a man would be more embarrassed or negligent to come out and say it.

 

[Pesky Persian]

It is really a testosterone/estrogen thing. That is why only 10% of rape victims are male, and 90% are female. It is the male goal to preserve dominance and pride, hence a man would be more embarrassed or negligent to come out and say it.

Do you have source that says male gender stereotypes are testosterone related? Society tells men they're supposed to be tough and dominant. It's emasculating to admit to being beaten by a woman.

 

[ChedWick]

It's my fault for choosing to stay with someone abusive? What if I'm pretty low on the socio-economic ladder dude? Divorces cost money. Do you think all women that choose to stay with their abusive husbands are really just a bunch of dumb bitches,

Why yes, yes I do.

and if they're too stupid to get out, they deserve what's coming to them?

Of course not, but that doesn't mean they are without blame.

Sometimes a woman has nowhere else to go, especially if there is kids involved. What's better, staying with your abusive husband, or being a single mom out on the streets?

There are friends, family and if neither of those are available, there are plenty of shelters and available programs. Either way, getting your kids as far away from that environment is by far the best for them. But this is really bordering on another debate so I'll cut it there.


What I've gathered from the last few pages is an attempt to justify irrational thought. I can't say I agree with that.

 

[iFi Salamander]

Do you have source that says male gender stereotypes are testosterone related? Society tells men they're supposed to be tough and dominant. It's emasculating to admit to being beaten by a woman.

I could easily find one, I can't see why you would openly challenge well known medical facts about testosterone, estrogen, and their hormonal effects on the body.

 

[kochoupink]

It's my fault for choosing to stay with someone abusive? What if I'm pretty low on the socio-economic ladder dude? Divorces cost money. Do you think all women that choose to stay with their abusive husbands are really just a bunch of dumb bitches,


Why yes, yes I do.



Of course not, but that doesn't mean they are without blame.



There are friends, family and if neither of those are available, there are plenty of shelters and available programs. Either way, getting your kids as far away from that environment is by far the best for them. But this is really bordering on another debate so I'll cut it there.


What I've gathered from the last few pages is an attempt to justify irrational thought. I can't say I agree with that.

YES BLAMING THE VICTIM IS RATIONAL, YOU WOMEN MAY GO HOME NOW.

Do you have source that says male gender stereotypes are testosterone related? Society tells men they're supposed to be tough and dominant. It's emasculating to admit to being beaten by a woman.

His source is the same pseudoscientific evo-psych bs that the internet loves to use to tell women to get back in the kitchen.
It's the patriarchy. The patriarchy hurts men too.

I could easily find one, I can't see why you would openly challenge well known medical facts about testosterone, estrogen, and their hormonal effects on the body.

Not all men and women have the same levels of estrogen and testosterone. It's a good generalization but breaks down along individual lines. And regardless of which hormones you may have, self-preservation is human nature. Going against the instinct for self-preservation (i.e. staying with a woman who abuses you) has nothing to do with "being a [biological] man" and everything to do with "being a [patriarchally acceptable] man."

 

[Pesky Persian]

I could easily find one, I can't see why you would openly challenge well known medical facts about testosterone, estrogen, and their hormonal effects on the body.

If you could easily give me a source that says testosterone won't allow men to admit to emasculating events, I'd love to see it.

High testosterone could lead to a propensity for violence, which explains why more men commit violent crimes. It does not, however, show why men are less likely to admit to being the victim. That is societal.

 

[iFi Salamander]

His source is the same pseudoscientific evo-psych bs that the internet loves to use to tell women to get back in the kitchen.
It's the patriarchy. The patriarchy hurts men too.

The two chemicals are what make our genetic makeup and differentiate male from female. Denying this and chemical traits just makes you an blatant ignorant idiot.

If you could easily give me a source that says testosterone won't allow men to admit to emasculating events, I'd love to see it.

High testosterone could lead to a propensity for violence, which explains why more men commit violent crimes. It does not, however, show why men are less likely to admit to being the victim. That is societal.

Of course society plays a role, but those stereotypes and gender roles placed by society don't appear into thin air for no reason.

Anyways testosterone affects the desire for dominance, and the counter reaction of others trying to claim dominance. This is why you more commonly see two males challenging each other in contest. This is where these barriers came to exist.

 

[kochoupink]

The two chemicals are what make our genetic makeup and differentiate male from female. Denying this and chemical traits just makes you an blatant ignorant idiot.

Takes one to know one, "almost-genius."
And I wasn't denying it. You are ignoring what else I said. Estrogen and testosterone do create visible biological differences. What they do not do is dictate personality traits or individual actions.

Of course society plays a role, but those stereotypes and gender roles placed by society don't appear into thin air for no reason.

Of course they don't appear out of thin air. They appear out of centuries of "Might-makes-right" rule that over time create rigid social structures in order to easily control large groups of people for the benefit of a few.

 

[Pesky Persian]

The two chemicals are what make our genetic makeup and differentiate male from female. Denying this and chemical traits just makes you an blatant ignorant idiot.



Of course society plays a role, but those stereotypes and gender roles placed by society don't appear into thin air for no reason.

So give me a source. If you can easily do so, do it. Otherwise, you're just spouting off your own opinions with nothing to back it up.

Testosterone and estrogen are important hormones, but they aren't the only ones that play major roles in the human body (or the human psyche). Your hormones don't determine your genetic makeup anyway, your genetics do. Someone with two X chromosomes could have high testosterone, but she's still female.

 

[iFi Salamander]

Takes one to know one, "almost-genius."Takes one to know one, "almost-genius."

That figure of speech holds no meaning here, in fact it doesn't even make sense. By the logic, the stupider your are, the easier it would be for you to recognize stupidity?

Of course they don't appear out of thin air. They appear out of centuries of "Might-makes-right" rule that over time create rigid social structures in order to easily control large groups of people for the benefit of a few.

As I stated above, testosterone effects the need for dominance, which leads to all of the other things I mentioned.

Testosterone and estrogen are important hormones, but they aren't the only ones that play major roles in the human body (or the human psyche). Your hormones don't determine your genetic makeup anyway, your genetics do. Someone with two X chromosomes could have high testosterone, but she's still female.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/265642-signs-symptoms-of-excess-testosterone-in-men/

And of course there are tons of other hormones. Though I can't say there is proven correlation between genetics and hormone levels and neurological processes. Autism is proof of that.

 

[kochoupink]

That figure of speech holds no meaning here, in fact it doesn't even make sense. By the logic, the stupider your are, the easier it would be for you to recognize stupidity?

By that logic, you must be v. good at recognizing stupidity, yes.

As I stated above, testosterone effects the need for dominance, which leads to all of the other things I mentioned.

Holy cognitive leaps, batman!
While we're at it:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091208132241.htm
http://fpb.case.edu/smartcenter/docs/SpitCamp/Booth et al Social Forces 2006.pdf
Also, please RAVEN when you can.
(RAVEN:
"Remember: "affect:" verb. Effect: noun.")

 

[iFi Salamander]

By that logic, you must be v. good at recognizing stupidity, yes.

I can recognize intelligence too. Must me I am stupid and intelligent, if that actually makes any sense.

 

[Dryzera]

There are friends, family and if neither of those are available, there are plenty of shelters and available programs. Either way, getting your kids as far away from that environment is by far the best for them. But this is really bordering on another debate so I'll cut it there.

What fantasy world are you living in? Homeless shelters aren't exactly as common as fastfood joints that you see coming across every exit on the freeway. Even if you do have access to one, the time you're allowed to stay there is very limited, because there are other people seeking refuge. Homeless shelters can't take in everyone.

You may not want to accept it, but there is a such thing as just being completely and thoroughly fucked.

What I've gathered from the last few pages is an attempt to justify irrational thought. I can't say I agree with that.

I take it you also think things like crimes of passion and the like should be completely erased from the legal system then.

 

[Pesky Persian]

That figure of speech holds no meaning here, in fact it doesn't even make sense. By the logic, the stupider your are, the easier it would be for you to recognize stupidity?



As I stated above, testosterone effects the need for dominance, which leads to all of the other things I mentioned.


http://www.livestrong.com/article/265642-signs-symptoms-of-excess-testosterone-in-men/

And of course there are tons of other hormones. Though I can't say there is proven correlation between genetics and hormone levels and neurological processes. Autism is proof of that.

Your article discusses behavioral changes due to unnaturally high testosterone. That means nothing to the discussion of why abused men rarely admit to it.i

Edit: Also, great article, Kochou. I hadn't seen that research yet. Interesting research findings.

 

[はるひ]

I think now we are getting off topic.

But my last words on the subject will be that being abused does not give you the right to cheat.

 

[iFi Salamander]

Your article discusses behavioral changes due to unnaturally high testosterone. That means nothing to the discussion of why abused men rarely admit to it.

It discusses the effect it has on dominance, put the pieces together.

 

[Pesky Persian]

It discusses the effect it has on dominance, put the pieces together.

Except we're talking about men with normal testosterone levels...