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Chivalry and Gender Equality in Democracy

Alleviate

Banned
Are these principles mutually exclusive? How can a woman merit special treatment if she has so adamantly campaigned for equality? Why is a women not expected to carry out the same duties as a man? Why is she defended? Why is she unable to be conscripted? Why can she not be touched or hit by a member of the opposite sex without her consent? Why is she able to fight back against man, but the opposite is looked upon with contempt? Should women recieve political rights, or the luxury of sexist social standards? Is it impossible for the pair to justly coexist?
 

chuboy

<- It was THIS big!
How can a woman merit special treatment if she has so adamantly campaigned for equality?

Because everyone, even women, knows that deep down men are better and we should throw them a bone once in a while.

No pun intended.
 

meteor64

Show Me Ya Noobs
Because everyone, even women, knows that deep down men are better and we should throw them a bone once in a while.

No pun intended.

I hope you're not serious.
 
Well I'm with you on the hitting thing (I am a woman) I used to get annoyed when men had to just give up and let the woman win because i'm for equality on both sides.

However as my fiance said, men do technically have higher physical strength because of greater muscle mass (in general) so if a woman hit a man and he struck back he's likely to do more damage.

I just wonder why can't he control his force so that he hits the woman with the same force as her? In a fit of anger a man can do a lot more damage that's why.

I think it depends on what the nature of the hit from the woman is. She has it coming if she's being a right git.

I don't expect to be treated all special because of my gender, it's up to my fiance whether he wants to treat me that way or not. He also does the whole walking on the road side of the pavement to stop possible cars slamming into me. Part of his chivalry, it's how he was raised, his whole family is like that.

I also don't expect him to do more than me because he is a man, i do what i can and he does what he can. When we can't get a task done on our own, we do it together. Often it's better to join forces.

I really hate those over the top feminists who won't shut the hell up about woman's rights and think men are the cause of all that is wrong with the world.
They are just as bad as men who think woman should do what they tell them all the time.
 
Chivalry and gender equality need not be mutually exclusive at all. The problem with chivalry as currently perceived is that it's the social norm for the chivalrous act to be performed by the male and received by the female.

Gender equality and chivalry can co-exist so long as women can perform acts of 'chivalry' for men too, as I see it. I know this divorces chivalry from its historical tradition of always being performed by men, but breaking from tradition doesn't necessarily do any harm.
 
Interesting how most of the OP describes things being done to women rather than what women are doing.

Maybe if the perpetrators stopped, we'd have our answer?
 

7 tyranitars

Well-Known Member
if a human is threatening my life I'll do everything to protect myself no matter the gender.

I''m for total equality no gender should have an edge above the other
 

Shuam

righteous
Affirmative action is discrimination against white men, and it's still in play. Let's talk about this.
 

Alleviate

Banned
"If you are white and young in America, you more than anyone else are likely to know about discrimination. You are faced with it every day. You are reaping all of the “wonderful benefits” given to you by the baby boomer generation. . . Many young people today have to get outside jobs to help mom and dad with the bills and when it’s time for college there is no White College fund. If your parents are able to scrape up enough for college or if they are “lucky” enough to be poor so you can get a pell grant you might just find out your spot was given to a non-white because of Affirmative Action. Of course, once you do get to college there are no Caucasian Student Unions or European Culture Clubs and don’t even think about starting one just because there are tons of them for Blacks, Asians, or what ever. If you were daring enough to try, you would be called all kinds of horrible names. Why, you would wonder. You just wanted to have a club like everybody else. Welcome to the world of hypocrisy and illogical thought. . . It’s sad. So many young people have lost their racial instincts. They have lost pride in their race and they are the modern victims of the anti-white propaganda mill. . . Today it’s hard, real hard to say you are White and proud. Your parent’s may think you are crazy. Hopefully they made the right decision when they were young and now they can be looked upon as heroes by this generation. They are heroes because they taught you to be compassionate toward your white brothers and sisters and to be proud of your roots and your history. . ."
-excerpt-
You can roll with that for starters Shuam.
 

Natty

Electric Rodent
Are you guys really going to pull that "as a white male in middle class America I'm discriminated against" thing?

You want to know why women expect to be protected? You want to know why you shouldn't touch a woman without her consent? (and did you really just ask that?)

91% percent of rape (and this is just rape that's reported) is committed to females. One in four women has experienced domestic violence and abuse. When women leave the house in my city, they need to think about what they'll do if faced with an attacker... every time. Women need to travel in groups here, or there is a threat posed. Men do not. And you're going to ask why we feel we should be protected?

And secondly, did you REALLY just ask why we need consent before being touched? Do you even know what that implies? One, that's human decency not to intrude someone's intimacy before you get permission, and two, since when do I need to clarify "no" for a person to know it's not okay to touch me? Do you know what it feels like to have someone come onto you and intimidate your personal space? Because I do. Here's a hint: Silence is not "yes".

It's pretty funny how you're complaining about how women can assert themselves and men can't... but the truth is that men are congratulated for being assertive is seen as great and when a woman is assertive we call her a *****. And when a man IS kind to women and has respect for their... y'know, years that they've suffered oppression of more types than I feel like putting down here, we call him "_____ whipped". When a man is sexual, he's awesome. When a woman is sexual, she's a ****. If you think chivalry is dead, don't worry, because sexism is not.

Chivalry is not dead. The types of people posting in this topic just don't think women need it anymore.
 
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Juputoru

M-m-m-m-onobear?!
Why is a women not expected to carry out the same duties as a man?
Sexism. Or, in some cases, men are generally the only ones with the physical strength necessary for certain tasks(which isn't sexism, assuming that men & women of equal strength are given equivilant duties). I try to keep myself in decent shape, but I recognize that, as a woman, I'm simply not going to get the huge muscles than a man could unless I start doing hilarious amounts of steroids.

Why is she unable to be conscripted?
Funny story: In the US, Equal Rights amendments tend to get stalled when people realize that they'd open up women to the same selective service requirements as men. I personally would never want to be conscripted, and I'm guessing that most people(whether male or female) don't want that either. Although we haven't had an instance of conscription in decades, so I personally wouldn't mind true equal rights even if it meant equal chance of being conscripted. Though I'd rather have it be so that nobody would be conscripted, I'll take what I can get.

Why can she not be touched or hit by a member of the opposite sex without her consent?
Can men be touched or hit by women without their consent? If so, then you'll have to excuse me. I have some men to beat up. But men also protected by the same assault/sexual harassment laws that women are, so 1)I can't do that without going to jail, and 2)I really don't get what you're trying to get at here.

Why is she able to fight back against man, but the opposite is looked upon with contempt?
As I mentioned at the start of this post, men are generally stronger than women, so more potential for harm is there. But it's wrong for either gender to assault the other, and both genders have the right to fight back against an attacker of any gender.

Should women recieve political rights, or the luxury of sexist social standards?
Luxury? What's so goddamned luxurious about sexism? Sure, women in that sort of system have men do the wage earning/incredibly strenous work of holding doors open for them, but they'd also doomed to being homemakers forever. (or else being part of one of a select few occupations deemed fit for women) That system also sucks for men, since it assumes that they all want to be breadwinners & none of them want to stay at home and look after the house & kids. It also punishes men who act too feminine(ie. like the "weaker" sex). There's also stuff that you really have to think about to realize that it has roots in a sexist system.(example: men are expected to spend several months' salary on an engagement/wedding ring, but women aren't? What the hell? Aside from the ridiculous expectation of how much should be spent on those rings in the first place, that's really unfair to the man.) As a man, you should be as against sexism as any woman would be.

Is it impossible for the pair to justly coexist?
It is possible, it's just called being polite rather than chivalrous. Chilvalry is an exclusively "men being nice to women" system. Politeness involves both men AND women being nice to everyone. And in the end, isn't that what we should be aiming for?
 
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ChedWick

Well-Known Member
Are you guys really going to pull that "as a white male in middle class America I'm discriminated against" thing?

Yes. In the future I'd pick a white male doctor over a woman or minority.

You want to know why women expect to be protected? You want to know why you shouldn't touch a woman without her consent? (and did you really just ask that?)

You shouldn't touch anyone with out their consent...

91% percent of rape (and this is just rape that's reported) is committed to females. One in four women has experienced domestic violence and abuse. When women leave the house in my city, they need to think about what they'll do if faced with an attacker... every time. Women need to travel in groups here, or there is a threat posed. Men do not. And you're going to ask why we feel we should be protected?

Just because bad things happen to certain people or groups of people does not mean one group owes another anything.

And secondly, did you REALLY just ask why we need consent before being touched? Do you even know what that implies? One, that's human decency not to intrude someone's intimacy before you get permission, and two, since when do I need to clarify "no" for a person to know it's not okay to touch me? Do you know what it feels like to have someone come onto you and intimidate your personal space? Because I do. Here's a hint: Silence is not "yes".

Spot on but one must consider the type of atmosphere one chooses to be present in. Going to a club and going to a grocery store have very different social boundaries as far as intimacy. These differences are generally known and accepted too. Either way, no means no.


It's pretty funny how you're complaining about how women can assert themselves and men can't... but the truth is that men are congratulated for being assertive is seen as great and when a woman is assertive we call her a *****. And when a man IS kind to women and has respect for their... y'know, years that they've suffered oppression of more types than I feel like putting down here, we call him "_____ whipped". When a man is sexual, he's awesome. When a woman is sexual, she's a ****. If you think chivalry is dead, don't worry, because sexism is not.

Neither will every truly be dead. At least not before you and I die.

Chivalry is not dead. The types of people posting in this topic just don't think women need it anymore.

With the push for equal rights some would argue it to be unfair to give special treatment.




I for one try to be nice all around. I tend to live by the "treat others how you wish to be treated" childhood lesson. I'll hold doors for guys, girls, I'll also slam them in the faces of both if I feel its warranted. I don't automatically jump the the side of anyone with out standing back and asserting the situation.
 

NimhShambler

Fighting Type Prof.
Personally, I don't really like getting special treatment for being a woman. I was raised to be a person. My parents didn't raise me like a little girl or a little boy, they raised me to be a human. They also told me that there (other than biological differences) is no real difference between men/boys and women/girls. People only act in steriotypical ways because that's what their parents and society at large raised them to be.

Girls are conditioned to like pink and dolls and to be afraid of insects/arachnids and reptiles. Girls are also conditioned to speak a lot and be frail and sensitve.

Boys are conditioned to like blue and trucks and to get dirty and loud. Boys are also conditioned to be aggressive and get in fights.

Pity that society enforces these "Norms" according to what has always been put off as true. If more people would raise their children in the manner that I was raised, then there would be true equality. Pity they won't.

However, I was raised under a modification of Chivarly. I was raised to always act with honor, always tell the truth--no matter what, and to defend those who cannot defend themselves. It still is a big part of who I am. It is "dyed into my wool" if you will.


There will only be true equality when people raise their children in the way that I was raised--to be a person and to look at other people as just that--People.


(If this is nonsensical, I apologise. I'm in a lot of pain, today. I had to take my pills, so now I am a tad "floaty")


~Nemmeh
 

Natty

Electric Rodent
I for one try to be nice all around. I tend to live by the "treat others how you wish to be treated" childhood lesson. I'll hold doors for guys, girls, I'll also slam them in the faces of both if I feel its warranted. I don't automatically jump the the side of anyone with out standing back and asserting the situation.

Well, exactly. And I'm not saying women should go around smacking men because people shouldn't be hitting anyone. And in a utopia, we would have equal treatment and men wouldn't need to protect women. But we're not equal and being a woman means that you face more threats to your life and safety daily than a man will... so there's definitely a need, or at the least a want, for the protection of someone else and for some respect. Holding doors open and the like, I don't really see because I've been taught to do things like that for everyone.

Basically, if I want to take a walk but want my brother or boyfriend to come along with me so I'm in less danger, I don't want to be told "wahh but you say you want equal treatment too". It's like, okay, if I don't have some "special treatment" (as if that's a bad thing) I face being raped. But if I do want some assistance I don't get equal rights? That's incredibly ignorant and the premise of this thread is wrong for those reasons.

As for grocery store vs. club, you shouldn't touch a girl no matter where you are. I was at a party (but it was a vanilla party, there were no drugs or drinking) when I was come onto a few weeks ago and the guy was putting his hands all over my thighs and body. I kept walking away and excusing myself, and he kept following me until I left... and when I came home and told him it was inappropriate he said "Well why didn't you say no?". I'm like... um. I didn't say yes and I kept walking away from you and moving your hands. as if it's my fault he harassed me.
 
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7 tyranitars

Well-Known Member
Funny story: In the US, Equal Rights amendments tend to get stalled when people realize that they'd open up women to the same selective service requirements as men. I personally would never want to be conscripted, and I'm guessing that most people(whether male or female) don't want that either. Although we haven't had an instance of conscription in decades, so I personally wouldn't mind true equal rights even if it meant equal chance of being conscripted. Though I'd rather have it be so that nobody would be conscripted, I'll take what I can get.

I'm so glad I don't have to do that :/ it is sad that man where forced into the army..

You want to know why women expect to be protected? You want to know why you shouldn't touch a woman without her consent? (and did you really just ask that?)

nobody wishes to be touched without consent nice way to say it only happend to females.. ofcourse rapist are sick assholes anyway but don't say females deserve special treatment because that contradicts the equel part



I for one try to be nice all around. I tend to live by the "treat others how you wish to be treated" childhood lesson. I'll hold doors for guys, girls, I'll also slam them in the faces of both if I feel its warranted. I don't automatically jump the the side of anyone with out standing back and asserting the situation.

yep that's right gender shouldn't play a role if you act nice to someon
 

Profesco

gone gently
I suppose I stick gender equality in the same realm as legislation and social policy on a public level. No sort of infrastructure in place that favors or discriminates against either sex is what I consider gender equality. It's an impersonal principle.

Chivalry, on the other hand, is a personal endeavor in my eyes. There need not be any laws or rules that mandate women be promoted over men out of romanticism, because that's unfair where equality has important reverberations in people's lives. But if a man is more inclined, on his own time and in no legal context, to lend a hand to a woman carrying a heavy parcel than he is to another man, that's personal and inconsequential.

Being nice is yet another different thing. It isn't dependent on situation, like chivalry, or business and law, like gender equality. It's simply a character trait everyone should endeavor to develop in themselves.

Ideally, a man should be capable of all three: being kind as a general rule, being chivalrous in appropriate moments, and observing equal treatment of those involved in official matters.
 

Natty

Electric Rodent
nobody wishes to be touched without consent nice way to say it only happend to females.. ofcourse rapist are sick assholes anyway but don't say females deserve special treatment because that contradicts the equel part

I don't think it does though. The fact is, women face more danger because they are women. And since they need help and protection because of that, they're told that they don't get equal rights? It's like I said here:

"... if I want to take a walk but want my brother or boyfriend to come along with me so I'm in less danger, I don't want to be told "wahh but you say you want equal treatment too". It's like, okay, if I don't have some "special treatment" (as if that's a bad thing) I face being raped. But if I do want some assistance I don't get equal rights?"

It's completely unfair. Should I have to make the choice between equal rights and being safe? What kind of situation is that? They don't contradict because one is the cause for the other. Because we don't have equal rights, we need to be protected. It's pretty simple.
 
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Because everyone, even women, knows that deep down men are better and we should throw them a bone once in a while.
Sorry I disagree, to me there is no "best".

What I would say to this thread is that if people/men or even women did the right thing then there would be no need for divorces, inequality, or any other supposively unfair advantage against the opposite gender!
 

NimhShambler

Fighting Type Prof.
I think that there would still be divorces.

A lot of people mistake the strong sexual attraction that they feel for being in love.

When the "Honey moon" is over, they realize that they didn't truely love each other, and they get divorced.
 
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