Cilan Takes Flight (728)

[The Great Butler]

The entire problem with your argument is that Cilan was portrayed as completely, 100% right while Skyla was made out to be a morally reprehensible creep with no redeeming qualities, whether or not there was any actual nuance to the situation itself. The depiction of the two characters was designed to make you hate Skyla and take Cilan's side without thinking of the context.

The two of them had disrespectful and respectful reasons and attitudes with what they're doing, and from this I'd say my opinions on both characters in this episode is balanced. I didn't like Skyla's attitude towards Gym battles, but I thought Cilan should have been more reasonable to her (however Cilan's a very passionate person....)

That's not balanced. You're making an excuse for Cilan without making one for Skyla too.

I apologize for bringing this up again.

I'm not complaining, I wanted a chance to point out that the hypocrisy in the fandom hasn't gone away. Cilan "stole" this Gym from Ash and turned Ash's challenge into being about avenging him instead of getting the badge, and nobody cared; yet as soon as the possibility is raised that Iris might get Drayden first, the screaming starts that she's a "parasite" who "doesn't deserve" to "take Drayden away [from Ash]".

 

[Raptor_Crow]

Well I never hated Skyla as she wasn't a bad person. I only had problems with the way she viewed the scenario, but I knew Cilan wasn't any better.

That's not balanced. You're making an excuse for Cilan without making one for Skyla too.

Actually I already made an excuse for Skyla and this regarding her reason for doing the Air Battles. Me pointing out that Cilan is very passionate and then trailing off- I was generally wondering that Cilan may need to learn to not be way too passionate over his talents which causes this flaw in him.

However, at the same time, I also love it as it shows Cilan does have problems in his overall persona and thus isn't completely perfect and flawless.

Basically my excuse for Skyla would have been "she wanted to have time to do something she loves" which I already covered and so I didn't want to repeat myself. So yeah, perhaps Cilan did have an extra excuse for his actions, however it was not a justified excuse- It was in fact a faulty excuse.

yet as soon as the possibility is raised that Iris might get Drayden first, the screaming starts that she's a "parasite" who "doesn't deserve" to "take Drayden away [from Ash]".

And this is why I never bother reading comments in regards to people's thoughts and opinions on Iris's character portrayal. Plus they tend to be too wordy. At least Iris has a connection with Drayden which justifies the reason if Drayden has been saved for her. Encountering Drayden again may be a big help for Iris towards her goal to becoming a Dragon Master and thus this has an understanding reason which, apparently, tends to get ignored.

 

[JennaJayfeather]

I think one of the problems with making an excuse for Skyla is, we just don't know enough about her. ^^; We know more about Ash, Dento, and Iris, so when we have to stick up for them we know, "Oh well we know this is their behavior, so they are in character." However, like Raptor_Crow was saying it was a "faulty excuse." You guys complain about Dento being a Gary Stu, now you guys get upset when he does something wrong that is in character. It's still a fault, and it's a fault that had costed him.

And this is why I never bother reading comments in regards to people's thoughts and opinions on Iris's character portrayal. Plus they tend to be too wordy.

Pretty much. I've tried to read some threads on her character development and it seems to be people are either for or against her. It was just too scary and overblown I try to stay away from threads like that. Tbh I'm not even sure where this bashing is coming from now.

 

[AgentPierce]

Tbh I'm not even sure where this bashing is coming from now.

The bashing is for all the same stupid reasons it's always been:

- Iris isn't a cutesy, girly, constant fanservice-giving female lead (preferably the Gen V female player character) who doesn't do Contests.

- Her quest isn't portrayed as a girly counterpart to Ash's and she isn't his co-star, thus she's "not a real heroine".

- Her quest isn't showcased in every other episode and she doesn't catch alot of Pokemon, so she's "not developed" (ignoring that technically, character development has NOTHING to do with constant screentime or how many Pokemon a character has, and that Iris has way more character development that Ash, who has next to none, does.)

- She's a hypocrite (which is the point of the joke; it's supposed to be played for laughs) and she treats Ash badly instead of being super-sweet and supportive of him.

- And of course, she's either too overpowered or too underpowered....the fans complain either way. -_-

 

[The Great Butler]

I think one of the problems with making an excuse for Skyla is, we just don't know enough about her. ^^;

Thank you for making my entire case for me.

Of course the viewers are going to take Cilan's side without thinking, because Skyla was deliberately written as a one-dimensional character with zero substance outside of what she needed to antagonize Cilan.

That still does not explain why Cilan needed to fight her, though. He could have been as annoyed as he wanted to be and simply gotten too enthusiastic for Ash's side of the battle, but instead, he cut in front of Ash even though he should know by now how impatient Ash gets about badges. Cilan did something completely obnoxious and nobody called him out on it, in fact, Ash went OOC to let him do it - he bent the world around him to look good, which is one of the hallmarks of a Gary Stu, sorry.

 

[JennaJayfeather]

which is one of the hallmarks of a Gary Stu, sorry.

Ash wasn't really OOC. He's gotten mad at Shingo for analyzing Pokemon. Though, he did seem like a little Mime Jr. XD Almost like they threw him in to do something. XD That wasn't what I meant to say, but more on Stu/Sue's:

"Stu/Sue" seems to be more of a term to use for OC's in fanfiction... Has lv. 100 shiny legendary Pokemon, becomes Champion on their first try. No personality. Exceedingly beatiful, long gorgeous hair, winds up with the person they like.... for ex. Paul because he makes an exception just for her. because that's mostly where you find it and most of that isn't intentional, it's just poor writing.

However, most of the time I see people use "sue/stu' for a character they don't like. Like Leafpool, Cinderheart from the Warrior Cats series. I've heard them called Sue's soooo much it gets me frustrated, because basically people are saying "you are not allowed to like that character because I find them boring. Then they promptly try to spread it, like some disease.

I can see Dento as a borderline Stu , but I don't think it's anything to complain about. He has his own faults (really it's his own power up that hits him in his face--his passion XD).

EDIT: For realz. I'm so sick of arguing about this episode. XDD I personally like this episode a lot.

 

[BurningSociety12345543210]

There is no reason to make this episode feel bad about itself, Butler.

 

[ShinyMienshao]

Wow what an episode.

 

[AgentPierce]

Okay, hold on: now I need to point out something I missed earlier:

Cilan "stole" this Gym from Ash and turned Ash's challenge into being about avenging him instead of getting the badge

Except...Ash's challenge was NOT about avenging him at all: nobody really even cared that Cilan lost his battle. Nobody in the room at the time even acknowledged him after he broke down in defeat! Ash's challenge was about showing Skyla that a true battle was better than air battles because she needed to use her pokemon more. This was advocated by Mile, so it was partially for his sake too. Cilan had nothing to do with it and had no say in the matter after Skyla crushed him in battle.

Of course the viewers are going to take Cilan's side without thinking, because Skyla was deliberately written as a one-dimensional character with zero substance outside of what she needed to antagonize Cilan.

What gets me about it is that Skyla seemed to be her regular good-natured self whenever she was challenging opponents or doing test flights or whatever. It wasn't until someone (Mile, Cilan, Ash) got up in her face about why her way of doing things was wrong did she turn into this one-dimensional morally reprehensible creep with no redeeming qualities. And I agree that she was written that way so that no matter what the argument was, who started it, or who was really in the wrong, viewers would automatically side with the opposing characters because Skyla came off as so much worse. It was a vile, badly-written mess of an episode. But Atsuhiro Tomioka wrote it, so I'm not surprised.

Cilan did something completely obnoxious and nobody called him out on it, in fact, Ash went OOC to let him do it - he bent the world around him to look good, which is one of the hallmarks of a Gary Stu, sorry.

This, however, is taking things too far. Again, it was a terribly written episode all around, with everyone save for Mile acting idiotic or OOC. I don't think Cilan's part in it proves that he's a Gary Stu, nor should we fault his character as a whole for this one thing. And I think his loss at the end of the episode and the fact that no one cared about him afterwards kind of negates the Gary Stu thing anyway.

But you'd probably still call him one, given your irrational bias against the character.

 

[The Great Butler]

Okay, hold on: now I need to point out something I missed earlier:



Except...Ash's challenge was NOT about avenging him at all: nobody really even cared that Cilan lost his battle. Nobody in the room at the time even acknowledged him after he broke down in defeat! Ash's challenge was about showing Skyla that a true battle was better than air battles because she needed to use her pokemon more. This was advocated by Mile, so it was partially for his sake too. Cilan had nothing to do with it and had no say in the matter after Skyla crushed him in battle.

Ash was still taking up the exact same nonsense that Cilan was forcing once he fought her. It being advocated by Mile is really meaningless, because if he really mattered beyond being a plot device, he would have done something to resolve it long before Cilan showed up.

Cilan started the issue with the Air Battles, Ash continued it. The whole affair was so focused on teaching Skyla a lesson for something that I almost forgot there was actually a badge at stake.

What gets me about it is that Skyla seemed to be her regular good-natured self whenever she was challenging opponents or doing test flights or whatever. It wasn't until someone (Mile, Cilan, Ash) got up in her face about why her way of doing things was wrong did she turn into this one-dimensional morally reprehensible creep with no redeeming qualities. And I agree that she was written that way so that no matter what the argument was, who started it, or who was really in the wrong, viewers would automatically side with the opposing characters because Skyla came off as so much worse. It was a vile, badly-written mess of an episode. But Atsuhiro Tomioka wrote it, so I'm not surprised.

I can't tell if I'm being mocked here, and checking the list of what episodes Tomioka wrote isn't helping.

This, however, is taking things too far. Again, it was a terribly written episode all around, with everyone save for Mile acting idiotic or OOC. I don't think Cilan's part in it proves that he's a Gary Stu, nor should we fault his character as a whole for this one thing. And I think his loss at the end of the episode and the fact that no one cared about him afterwards kind of negates the Gary Stu thing anyway.

But you'd probably still call him one, given your irrational bias against the character.

You do know that "Gary Stu" and "invincible" aren't mutually exclusive, right? It's not like this episode is the only thing making him one, either.

When the biggest Cilan fan on here says she could agree that he might be borderline-Stu, I think I might be on to something. Clearly it bothers me more than it bothers her. But there's a funny thing about biases: everyone has them. I do, you do, everyone does. All of us have that one character that we just flat-out dislike.

 

[AgentPierce]

Ash was still taking up the exact same nonsense that Cilan was forcing once he fought her. It being advocated by Mile is really meaningless, because if he really mattered beyond being a plot device, he would have done something to resolve it long before Cilan showed up.

That's 'cause Ash shared Cilan's belief that Skyla's methods were wrong, but it was due to his passionate, near-psychotic love for battles rather than a Gym Leader's pride issue. They BOTH started the argument with Skyla at the same time, but for different reasons. When Cilan failed to prove Skyla wrong, he had no more say in the matter. Ash was continuing to try to prove Skyla wrong for HIMSELF, not for Cilan's sake.

And Mile didn't do anything to resolve it because he was willing to give Skyla the benefit of a doubt before and consider that maybe she was right about air battles being more efficent for modern-day challengers. That's either being a total wuss or being the bigger man depending on how you look at it.

I can't tell if I'm being mocked here, and checking the list of what episodes Tomioka wrote isn't helping.

I was agreeing with you, and mocking Tomioka. He's both the head writer and (IMHO) the biggest hack writer on the show.

You do know that "Gary Stu" and "invincible" aren't mutually exclusive, right? It's not like this episode is the only thing making him one, either.

I know that, but I still don't think Cilan fits the bill. Care to tell me other examples of his Stu-dom?

But there's a funny thing about biases: everyone has them. I do, you do, everyone does. All of us have that one character that we just flat-out dislike.

I agree there. (For me, that one character is Paul, of course) But your anti-Cilan attitude seems to come not from his actions but because you dislike the amount of screentime he gets (even though he's a main character) and you're annoyed with how his fanbase adores him, usually with a double standard towards Iris (which is their fault, not his.) I'm willing to admit that there were many times this year Cilan was written poorly (this episode, the tag battle against Bianca and Juniper, the Donamite, etc) but that doesn't make him a bad character.

 

[Demonsead]

If this entire episode was just about Skyka and Cilan, there wouldn't be any unfortunate implications to look into. Skyla's Grandfather is incredibly superfluous and has no reason to even exist, and Ash should have never voiced his opinion on the subject either, just be bummed out that he couldn't battle Skyla. This would keep the conflict as a disagreement between 2 Gym Leaders with differing methods of running their gyms.

 

[AgentPierce]

If this entire episode was just about Skyka and Cilan, there wouldn't be any unfortunate implications to look into. Skyla's Grandfather is incredibly superfluous and has no reason to even exist, and Ash should have never voiced his opinion on the subject either, just be bummed out that he couldn't battle Skyla. This would keep the conflict as a disagreement between 2 Gym Leaders with differing methods of running their gyms.

But even if it was just that, it would have to be written and handled with maturity, with no side demonized just so we could side with the other one and ignore their blatant faults and hypocrisy on the particular matter on which the disagreement is based on. But that's not how Tomioka wrote this episode. Whenever someone got up in Skyla's face about her ways being morally wrong, it was always Skyla who was written to come off as the bad guy while her opposition was the good guy. Even if the opposition was another female, that would still be bad writing.

 

[The Great Butler]

That's 'cause Ash shared Cilan's belief that Skyla's methods were wrong, but it was due to his passionate, near-psychotic love for battles rather than a Gym Leader's pride issue. They BOTH started the argument with Skyla at the same time, but for different reasons. When Cilan failed to prove Skyla wrong, he had no more say in the matter. Ash was continuing to try to prove Skyla wrong for HIMSELF, not for Cilan's sake.

I guess we'll agree to disagree on this one, because I couldn't get past "they're both trying to prove the exact same point, why is this going on?"

And Mile didn't do anything to resolve it because he was willing to give Skyla the benefit of a doubt before and consider that maybe she was right about air battles being more efficent for modern-day challengers. That's either being a total wuss or being the bigger man depending on how you look at it.

And therein lies the problem - the only person who cared at all about the matter was willing to let it go until Cilan showed up.

I was agreeing with you, and mocking Tomioka. He's both the head writer and (IMHO) the biggest hack writer on the show.

It was hard to tell. Looking at the list there were some good and some bad, and (perhaps ominously?) the two skipped episodes.

I know that, but I still don't think Cilan fits the bill. Care to tell me other examples of his Stu-dom?

Primarily it's how just about every single character seems to get along with him without fail. His negative aspects are played down, and the only character to actively dislike him - Burgundy - is turned into a complete joke for it. The impression given is that if you dislike Cilan, the rules of the universe will bend to make you look like an idiot.

I agree there. (For me, that one character is Paul, of course) But your anti-Cilan attitude seems to come not from his actions but because you dislike the amount of screentime he gets (even though he's a main character) and you're annoyed with how his fanbase adores him, usually with a double standard towards Iris (which is their fault, not his.)

Even though you're correctly naming parts of why I dislike him, I don't know how you can say that I haven't made it clear enough that his actions bother me too. I've made it pretty clear that his rude attitude toward people who disagree with him, his utterly ridiculous number of random hobbies that often happen to come up just coincidentally when they're necessary (itself another Stu trait) and spamming of Crustle bother me. And those are only three things.

I'm willing to admit that there were many times this year Cilan was written poorly (this episode, the tag battle against Bianca and Juniper, the Donamite, etc) but that doesn't make him a bad character.

That said, however, I'm actually going to defend him here. The only times I've ever fully liked him have been the Club Battle and Clubsplosion tournaments. Granted, that's largely because Burgundy was around to ***** at him, but he was actually funny in those episodes to me, not completely unwatchable.

 

[JennaJayfeather]

Omg did this episode air today? Seriously. Let's just drop this whole thing. It's very pointless. -_-; I'm not even reading your posts. I happened to have liked this episode very much, and call me whatever you want but I did. XD I'll admit, I agreed with Dento (the boy with green hair, sceraless eyes, a fabulous green bowtie, and a voice as smooth as silk) but that's mostly from how I was raised (work before pleasure).

Ugh just ignore what I wrote earlier. -_-; You just can't try to compare Pokemon to the real world.

(this episode, the tag battle against Bianca and Juniper, the Donamite, etc) but that doesn't make him a bad character.

This episode I liked. Just because it shows how his passion can cause him to explode (I'd expect the same if someone said fishing sucks and that they decide to buy their fish from the market. xD) I didn't like the Donamites, those didn't even focus on him. XD The tag battle...meh it was a bit boring. I think I only watched that once and Dento dancing around like 10x.

 

[BurningSociety12345543210]

I never realised this episode was so hated. It wasn't THAT bad.

 

[Raptor_Crow]

To tell you the truth I'm not sure what my true feelings are for this episode. As far as I know- I enjoyed seeing Dent exploding with rage, like I always do (because it's great when it happens with the positive ones) plus seeing a battle between two Gym leaders which is a rare occurrence.

Basically I didn't think it was bad, I thought it was alright. But the entire concept left me confused on how I should truly feel about the episode.

 

[JennaJayfeather]

So I didn't think it was bad. I thought it was alright, but the whole concept has left me confused on how I should truly feel about the episode.

Quite honestly the debate/hatred of this episode just sort of makes me facepalm. XD I think people just took this episode way too deeply. However, I think some others are confused like you are.

 

[Raptor_Crow]

Yeah this is why I don't like looking too deeply into Pokémon. I watch the show to enjoy it, not to nitpick at things that don't make sense.

But when I saw what was being said, I made an exception with this episode and came to that conclusion of nobody is in the right or wrong.

 

[BurningSociety12345543210]

"Cilan Takes Flight?"?

Cilan Takes Steroids would be a more accurate title.