Climax! The Night Before the Decisive Match: Ash VS Leon!! (1217)

[Pokegirl Fan~]

Riddle me this. Why did she want to retire after fighting Ash when she explicitly said over and over she wanted to reach the top even before and during that match with Ash.

She knows Ash has main character plot armor and thought he didn't deserve to win and felt cheated?

 

[Sham]

She knows Ash has main character plot armor and thought he didn't deserve to win and felt cheated?

You mean a poorly done and terrible copy of the Volkner situation?

 

[Sham]

Simple. She presents herself as a smart person, but in truth is she's an idiot.

I mean, just look at her Garchomp's lackluster move set.

Its funny because they all but directly admitted she made an error by not Mega Evolving and combine that with the stupid move set and Dynamaxing Togekiss, yeah they definitely dumbed her down.

 

[British Soul]

Watched this during my lunch break at work and IMMEDIATELY regretted it as it was another g-dang recap episode, that's four in the last ten episodes, though to be fair, Vrains reached its 4th recap episode 39 episodes in. I could've saved myself 23 mins by just looking up the next episode preview on YT and still learned the rest of Leon's roster, and ngl I find him having the other two FE Galar starters amusing as the other owner of those to 'mons gallivanted off on Project Mew business. Him having Mr Rime makes sense though.
Mind you, the promise that Ash and Leon made that their next battle will be an official one reminds me of the promise Zoey and Dawn made at the Jubilife contest in DP, meeting on the final stage, a promise that was also met as it served as a motivation for Dawn.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Its funny because they all but directly admitted she made an error by not Mega Evolving and combine that with the stupid move set and Dynamaxing Togekiss, yeah they definitely dumbed her down.

.....what even is the correlation here? It feels like miscontruing what was said to push the Cynthia was nerfed take
Also, clearly Cynthia told Diantha she is planning to retire after the tournament was over, so if she won against Ash she would have tried to Beat Leon as well to become the top trainer
As that text stands, the message is that if Cynthia had lost, she still would have retired coz the tournament for her is over. So her planning to retire after the match is correctly said in the recap but doesn't mean she wasn't aiming to be at the top

 

[Sham]

.....what even is the correlation here? It feels like miscontruing what was said to push the Cynthia was nerfed take

Not really, I didn’t post the entire dialogue but they basically said Ash was unpredictable so she tried to end the match quickly with Togekiss instead of going with intuition (mega evolution). That’s an error in judgment. I didn’t say she was nerferd. She made a bad choice.

Also, clearly Cynthia told Diantha she is planning to retire after the tournament was over, so if she won against Ash she would have tried to Beat Leon as well to become the top trainer

I’m just going but this recap just said

As that text stands, the message is that if Cynthia had lost, she still would have retired coz the tournament for her is over. So her planning to retire after the match is correctly said in the recap but doesn't mean she wasn't aiming to be at the top

She never said if she lost though. The text just said she’s planning on retiring after the battle. Again I’m just quoting what the episode said

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Not really, I didn’t post the entire dialogue but they basically said Ash was unpredictable so she tried to end the match quickly with Togekiss instead of going with intuition (mega evolution). That’s an error in judgment. I didn’t say she was nerferd. She made a bad choice.

I’m just going but this recap just said

She never said if she lost though. The text just said she’s planning on retiring after the battle. Again I’m just quoting what the episode said

First of all sorry can't properly quote this into sections, on mobile

From what the subs said, she goes for a Dynamax Togekiss as you said, to end the match quickly and because it's her strategic decision to win. "EMOTIONALLY" however, she would probably want to Mega evolve Garchomp is what the commentator of the recap says. That's like how Ash also would be more emotionally attached to using Pikachu's Z move to attack rather than any other mechanic. Nowhere does it say it cost her the match and was wrong, just simply saying Cynthia made that strategic choice even if emotionally she probably would have wanted to Mega evolve coz she feels closer to Garchomp

And again, I'm talking about the Semifinals I episode. Cynthia says to Diantha "After this tournament is over, I plan to retire". And in the battle she mentions she wants to kick Leon's ass. Clearly it means that 1) She plans to retire after beating Ash and Leon or losing to Leon after beating Ash
2) Retiring after losing to Ash

Since she lost to Ash, her decision basically was that she's gonna retire now as per what she told Diantha, therefore from what we saw in the episodes we can infer what the recap was saying when it says Cynthia planned to retire after the match. But then she doesn't coz Ash Volknered her

 

[Sham]

First of all sorry can't properly quote this into sections, on mobile

It’s fine.

From what the subs said, she goes for a Dynamax Togekiss as you said, to end the match quickly and because it's her strategic decision to win. "EMOTIONALLY" however, she would probably want to Mega evolve Garchomp is what the commentator of the recap says.

I’m assuming “emotionally” is intuition and that’s even if that’s the correct word to use in the sub. Intuition is a feeling so I wouldn’t exactly rule that word out. If you think I’m saying it as a way of saying “Ash didn’t deserve his win because Cynthia didn’t Mega Evolve”, I’m not. He was winning regardless what she did because that’s how they decided it, this is his strongest team and that’s the narrative being pushed.

Things can exist at the same time. He was always going to win but how and why is different than the final result, no matter what she did she was losing.

That's like how Ash also would be more emotionally attached to using Pikachu's Z move to attack rather than any other mechanic.

Except she’s only ever use Mega Evolution once (at least to the public). What attachment is there?

And just like it doesn’t say it costed her the match, it never implied that her having an emotional connection with Garchomp is why she felt the need to use it. Wouldn’t she have used it more if that was the case? Like Ash with his Z Moves?

Nowhere does it say it cost her the match and was wrong, just simply saying Cynthia made that strategic choice even if emotionally she probably would have wanted to Mega evolve coz she feels closer to Garchomp

We don’t know if it costed her the match (in universe not the actual plot result) because again she never used it.

And again, I'm talking about the Semifinals I episode. Cynthia says to Diantha "After this tournament is over, I plan to retire". And in the battle she mentions she wants to kick Leon's ass. Clearly it means that 1) She plans to retire after beating Ash and Leon or losing to Leon after beating Ash
2) Retiring after losing to Ash

Well I guess they’re contradicting themselves

 

[Thesnowmander11]

Climax! The Night Before the Decisive Match: Ash VS Leon!!​

It is almost time for the Masters Tournament finals, to determine the new monarch of the Pokémon World Coronation Series. To celebrate, PWCS News is doing a special to present the match to the world. This special will provide highlights of Ash & Leon's battles and details their encounters. There will also be special announcements for each of the contestants.

Visit The Episode Guide

Discuss

Ash better win bro

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

It’s fine.

I’m assuming “emotionally” is intuition and that’s even if that’s the correct word to use in the sub. Intuition is a feeling so I wouldn’t exactly rule that word out. If you think I’m saying it as a way of saying “Ash didn’t deserve his win because Cynthia didn’t Mega Evolve”, I’m not. He was winning regardless what she did because that’s how they decided it.

Except she’s only ever use Mega Evolution once (at least to the public). What attachment is there?

And just like it doesn’t say it costed her the match, it never implied that her having an emotional connection with Garchomp is why she felt the need to use it. Wouldn’t she have used it more if that was the case? Let alone a battle to the finals?

We don’t know if it costed her the match because again she never used it.

Well I guess they’re contradicting themselves

Why would you make the assumption though.... Intuition is a feeling yes but substituting the word emotionally for the word intuition changes the whole meaning and context of the sentence itself. Intuition implies her ignoring a strategy, emotionally implies her using strategy over just emotional feels. Changing the whole word is basically changing the sentence to fit your viewpoint that Cynthia used the wrong strategy

And the attachment that is there is that it's her FIRST partner Pokemon, obviously she's more attached to Garchomp than any other mon, that's the emotional attachment of using a gimmick on it rather than any other mon.

And they aren't contradicting themselves at all if you look at my message, because that's literally what happened. It's all explainable in the show's context itself

 

[Sham]

Why would you make the assumption though.... Intuition is a feeling yes but substituting the word emotionally for the word intuition changes the whole meaning and context of the sentence itself.

Again this is translated from Japanese, you're making just as much of an assumption as I am.

Intuition implies her ignoring a strategy, emotionally implies her using strategy over just emotional feels. Changing the whole word is basically changing the sentence to fit your viewpoint that Cynthia used the wrong strategy

And you're fitting your viewpoint by saying she used it because she felt emotionally charged by the Keystone with Garchomp. And evidently she did or something didn't work out because she lost. Like I said, wether she used the wrong or the "right" one, the narrative is this is his strongest team so none of this matters.

And the attachment that is there is that it's her FIRST partner Pokemon, obviously she's more attached to Garchomp than any other mon, that's the emotional attachment of using a gimmick on it rather than any other mon.

You still didn't answer why did she not use it more often? Are you saying she only felt emotionally connected to in ONE battle while Ash has used his Z-Move plenty of times. Ash's attachment to Pikachu didn't stop him from utilizing Dynamax or Mega Evolution when he felt like he wanted to.

And they aren't contradicting themselves at all if you look at my message, because that's literally what happened. It's all explainable in the show's context itself

The show said something and then said something else that doesn't quite fit with what they originally said. Your explanation for why they did that doesn't change the result.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Again this is translated from Japanese, you're making as an assumption as I am.

And you're fitting your viewpoint by saying she used it because she felt emotionally charged by it.

You still didn't answer why did she not use it more often?

The show said something and then said something else that doesn't quite fit with what they originally said. Your explanation for why did that doesn't change the result.

....So suddenly the reliable Japanese translators are wrong for this one? If it was meant to be intuition, the whole meaning would be different, so safe to say the subs are accurate only and not just choosing whatever word they want when they've always been accurate with translations.

And i don't get the argument of why she didn't use it more, because she was rarely pushed? Because we barely saw her battles? We didn't know when she got mega Evolution? Why is that relevant

And it DOES fit with what was said, even if you choose to ignore it. Again, Cynthia said she retires after this tournament. Since she ended up losing to Ash, tournament is over, which means she's gonna retire after her match with Ash, as stated originally, but she doesn't coz Ash changed her mind. Similarly if she won against Ash obviously she'd battle Leon and then retire. The statement still fits, it literally follows what was said earlier but simplified in one line, cmon now

 

[Sham]

....So suddenly the reliable Japanese translators are wrong for this one? If it was meant to be intuition, the whole meaning would be different, so safe to say the subs are accurate only and not just choosing whatever word they want when they've always been accurate with translations.

No, I didn't say that. There is such thing as romanticizing a language. That doesn't mean it's wrong per se but instead they used the best word they thought would fit. This isn't anything new for bilingual people. There are certain words in Spanish that has almost no English meaning and the same with Japanese. You have no idea what they meant by that and thus making an assumption like I am. Especially when that's a single word and not an entire conversation with context. Dephender as said countless of things that's contradicting what the subs have said.

And i don't get the argument of why she didn't use it more, because she was rarely pushed? Because we barely saw her battles? We didn't know when she got mega Evolution? Why is that relevant

Because the magazines and the next episode clearly implied that was her first time using it. It's relevant because you made it about her feeling an emotional attachment to it and saying it's via her bond with Garchomp and all of that contradicts that. Why did she not use it more and why does that (emotional attachment) not prevent Ash from using other gimmicks?

And it DOES fit with what was said, even if you choose to ignore it.

Do you want me to quote directly what each episode said?

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

No, I didn't say that. There is such thing as romanticizing a language. That doesn't mean it's wrong per se but instead they used the best word they thought would fit. This isn't anything new for bilingual people. There are certain words in Spanish that has almost no English meaning and the same with Japanese. You have no idea what they meant by that and thus making an assumption.

Because the magazines and the next episode clearly implied that was her first time using it. It's relevant because you made it about her feeling an emotional attachment to saying via her bond with Garchomp and all of that contradicts that.

Do you want me to quote directly what each episode said?

So you just said they chose the best word they thought would fit. If the episode said Cynthia ignored her intuition rather than coz of emotional bond, the subtitles would literally just use the word intuition. Cmon now, that's such a weak argument.

Again, the emotional attachment is not to the gimmick but to the mon she uses it with. That's the whole point, it doesnt matter if it's the first time she uses it, for all we know she obtained it prior to Masters Tournament only. The mechanic is irrelevant, it's about the bond with the MON that the gimmick activates. Garchomp is more emotionally attached to her than Togekiss, so makes sense mega evolving Garchomp would be more emotional to her than Dynamaxing Togekiss. That's the whole point.

You can pull up the quotes you want, it's literally still the same thing. "When this tournament is over, I plan to retire" Cynthia says to Diantha. "Cynthia planned to retire after her battle with Ash" it says in the recap. None of it is contradictory considering she lost to Ash so her tournament run was over, clearly if she won against Ash she wouldn't have retired without facing Leon now lol, cmon now

 

[Sham]

So you just said they chose the best word they thought would fit. If the episode said Cynthia ignored her intuition rather than coz of emotional bond, the subtitles would literally just use the word intuition. Cmon now, that's such a weak argument.

I also said I'm making an assumption. You are making an assumption and what you are saying is not a provable fact.

Again, the emotional attachment is not to the gimmick but to the mon she uses it with. That's the whole point, it doesnt matter if it's the first time she uses it, for all we know she obtained it prior to Masters Tournament only.

It was never said. And considering the magazines said it was her "secret weapon" I highly doubt she didn't have it over the course of the series and didn't just obtain this right before the tournament. Why has there never been a conflict with Ash choosing between Gmaxing Gengar and using Z-Moves then?

The mechanic is irrelevant, it's about the bond with the MON that the gimmick activates. Garchomp is more emotionally attached to her than Togekiss, so makes sense mega evolving Garchomp would be more emotional to her than Dynamaxing Togekiss. That's the whole point.

Why has Ash felt no internal conflict about this?

You can pull up the quotes you want, it's literally still the same thing. "When this tournament is over, I plan to retire" Cynthia says to Diantha. "Cynthia planned to retire after her battle with Ash" it says in the recap. None of it is contradictory considering she lost to Ash so her tournament run was over, clearly if she won against Ash she wouldn't have retired without facing Leon now lol, cmon now

And the two episodes say otherwise. If you're caping that all of these translates are barely wrong implied in your prior post then they did in fact say two different things and used the sentences that was the most accurate.

So you just said they chose the best word they thought would fit. If the episode said Cynthia ignored her intuition rather than coz of emotional bond, the subtitles would literally just use the word intuition. Cmon now, that's such a weak argument.

I also said I'm making an assumption. You are making an assumption and what you are saying is not a provable fact.

Again, the emotional attachment is not to the gimmick but to the mon she uses it with. That's the whole point, it doesnt matter if it's the first time she uses it, for all we know she obtained it prior to Masters Tournament only.

It was never said. And considering the magazines said it was her "secret weapon" I highly doubt she didn't have it over the course of the series and didn't just obtain this right before the tournament. Why has there never been a conflict with Ash choosing between Gmaxing Gengar and using Z-Moves then?

The mechanic is irrelevant, it's about the bond with the MON that the gimmick activates. Garchomp is more emotionally attached to her than Togekiss, so makes sense mega evolving Garchomp would be more emotional to her than Dynamaxing Togekiss. That's the whole point.

Why has Ash felt no internal conflict about this?

You can pull up the quotes you want, it's literally still the same thing. "When this tournament is over, I plan to retire" Cynthia says to Diantha. "Cynthia planned to retire after her battle with Ash" it says in the recap. None of it is contradictory considering she lost to Ash so her tournament run was over, clearly if she won against Ash she wouldn't have retired without facing Leon now lol, cmon now

And the two episodes say otherwise. If you're caping that all of these translates are barely wrong implied in your prior post then they did in fact say two different things and used the sentences that was the most accurate.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

I also said I'm making an assumption. You are making an assumption and what you are saying is not a provable fact.

It was never said. And considering they magazines said it was her "secret weapon" I highly doubt she didn't have it over the course of the series and didn't just obtain this right before the tournament. Why has there never been a conflict with Ash choosing between Gmaxing Gengar and using Z-Moves then?

Why has Ash felt no internal conflict about this?

And the two episodes say otherwise. If you're caping that all of these translates are barely wrong implied in your prior post then they did in fact say two different things.

I think the fact that talented Japanese translators translated it the way I'm saying is enough proof, its on you to prove your assumption by getting some other Japanese proficient translator to refute it. Coz of all times now to assume the subs guys errored seems like a stretch to me

Also wdym it was never said lol, isn't it obvious? Why else would there be an emotional attachment? How does that secret weapon thing prove she had it for ages, when you just said the anime itself said it was the first time Cynthia brought out mega Evolution. You need to stop taking what the magazines hype up as face value. Even if Cynthia recently obtained it, it's still a "secret weapon". Also there's no conflict, just a commentator saying while he's sure Cynthia probably had more of an emotional connect to Garchomp, she went with dynamaxing togekiss to take out Lucario early and win the battle aka her choosing that strat. For Ash's case, isn't it obvious he has more of a connect with Pikachu than any other bond, which directly translates to him being more emotionally bound to using a gimmick on Pikachu than other mons, yet according to his match he chooses what to use that'll help him get victory, same with what Cynthia chose.

Those aren't different things if you consider the context man, the second quote is literally a simplification of the events described in the previous episodes.


You know at this point we are going in circles and the whole discussion feels redundant to me because it's wholly based on a presumption on your part, declaring the subs to be wrong with the context to declare Cynthia was nerfed. And for that contradictory part, you can believe it was contradicted if you wish, even though the latter is just an extension of the former

 

[Sham]

I think the fact that talented Japanese translators translated it the way I'm saying is enough proof, its on you to prove your assumption by getting some other Japanese proficient translator to refute it. Coz of all times now to assume the subs guys errored seems like a stretch to me

Also wdym it was never said lol, isn't it obvious? Why else would there be an emotional attachment? How does that secret weapon thing prove she had it for ages, when you just said the anime itself said it was the first time Cynthia brought out mega Evolution. You need to stop taking what the magazines hype up as face value. Even if Cynthia recently obtained it, it's still a "secret weapon". Also there's no conflict, just a commentator saying while he's sure Cynthia probably had more of an emotional connect to Garchomp, she went with dynamaxing togekiss to take out Lucario early and win the battle aka her choosing that strat. For Ash's case, isn't it obvious he has more of a connect with Pikachu than any other bond, which directly translates to him being more emotionally bound to using a gimmick on Pikachu than other mons, yet according to his match he chooses what to use that'll help him get victory, same with what Cynthia chose.

Those aren't different things if you consider the context man, the second quote is literally a simplification of the events described in the previous episodes.


You know at this point we are going in circles and the whole discussion feels redundant to me because it's wholly based on a presumption on your part, declaring the subs to be wrong with the context to declare Cynthia was nerfed. And for that contradictory part, you can believe it was contradicted if you wish, even though the latter is just an extension of the former

If you’re saying I need to stop taking media about the Pokémon anime at face value to support and believe your argument then no.

Also I don’t even know why this an argument. I never said this was a nerf, I already said she was losing regardless and the only thing I said was that she had an idea of exploring an alternative choice which was mega evolution. Even if she didn’t have a Key Stone and had a band I’d question this.

What this really sounds like is you’re insecure about how Ash won and trying to project that I’m saying that Cynthia was nerferd when I’ve said this serval times that wasn’t the case and I can’t do that much about that.

Like I said if you take this as discrediting Ash’s win, we’re way to deep to even get into that conversation since he’s already beaten two Champions before this. Why is Cynthia any different?

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

If you’re saying I need to stop taking media about the Pokémon anime at face value to support and believe your argument then no.

Also I don’t even know why this an argument. I never said this was a nerf, I already said she was losing regardless and the only thing I said was that she had an idea of exploring an alternative choice which was mega evolution. Even if she didn’t have a Key Stone and had a band I’d question this.

What this really sounds like is you’re insecure about how Ash won and trying to project that I’m saying that Cynthia was nerferd when I’ve said this serval times that wasn’t the case and I can’t do that much about that.

Magazines are secondary media of the anime meant to hype up the viewer about upcoming episodes. Not all they say are meant to be taken exactly at face value, case in point the infamous 'Noivern is big and reliable' thingie

Why would I be insecure about how Ash won bro I'm not him XD
It's just weird to me saying the anime admitted Cynthia made the wrong choice when that never happened and it was based on you assuming the subs were wrong about the context, which is what spewed posts about "Cynthia Nerf" by other people as well, which I wanted to dispel coz the recap didn't say any of that. You're absolutely right by saying it was an alternative she could have taken, one I'm sure many would have preferred. You're right to say you think that would have been better a choice for Cynthia to go with than Dynamaxing, but not right to say the anime said she made a mistake with dynamaxing over the mega Evolution when the recap does not imply that

 

[Sham]

Magazines are secondary media of the anime meant to hype up the viewer about upcoming episodes. Not all they say are meant to be taken exactly at face value, case in point the infamous 'Noivern is big and reliable' thingie

That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be taken at face value, especially when the next episode's recap basically supported this.

Why would I be insecure about how Ash won bro I'm not him XD

Because you're constantly been putting words in my mouth this entire conversation

It's just weird to me saying the anime admitted Cynthia made the wrong choice when that never happened and it was based on you assuming the subs were wrong about the context, which is what spewed posts about "Cynthia Nerf" by other people as well, which I wanted to dispel coz the recap didn't say any of that.

Well why are you dispelling that on me? Quite frankly I don't care if she was nerfered or not because he's winning regardless. I said she made an error in choice, that's not a nerf its a bad and dumb decision.

You're absolutely right by saying it was an alternative she could have taken, one I'm sure many would have preferred. You're right to say you think that would have been better a choice for Cynthia to go with than Dynamaxing, but not right to say the anime said she made a mistake with dynamaxing over the mega Evolution when the recap does not imply that

And I as a viewer interpreted that a different way and since none of our arguments are completely confirmed by the show directly, they are assumptions. I never said any of this was facts and discussing this with another person.

 

[Ignition]

Is this recap worth watching? Skipped the first two but wanted to know if there was anything beyond the Ash vs Leon poster.

Don't you hate how OLM is never into interacting with its audience.

With how some people react when the anime doesn't do exactly what they want, I can understand why.