Climbing the Walls (828)

[Dragoniss]

Im positive Froakie got hit at one point and he just bounced back from it

Even if he did the fact still remained that none of his pokemon could take to much damage, they wouldn't have been able to survive anything to powerful. So he had to think quick and play around his shortcoming. Which just shows how strong Ash has gotten at using his pokemon correctly.

 

[Blue Saturday]

it doesn't matter, Grant made the rules so Ash simply followed them.

If a gym leader wanted to battle six vs 1 for example, you'd have to obey or leave.

Ash showed no reservations about following that rule and giving himself an advantage in a gym match, a benchmark test for his skills, this is OOC considering he was against taking badges without earning them and giving himself boost to move the match in his favor. And Grant said he could use all the Pokemon he had on hand and he's a nice, chill and relaxed guy. Roxie was forcing him to and he even showed apprehensions about doing so but zero here and he could have simply told Grant he would rather just use two Pokemon and not one. Nice job missing the point.

 

[Soniman]

Ash showed no reservations about following that rule and giving himself an advantage in a gym match, a benchmark test for his skills, this is OOC considering he was against taking badges without earning them and giving himself boost to move the match in his favor. And Grant said he could use all the Pokemon he had on hand and he's a nice, chill and relaxed guy. Roxie was forcing him to and he even showed apprehensions about doing so but zero here and he could have simply told Grant he would rather just use two Pokemon and not one. Nice job missing the point.

Im not gonna really argue this, at the end of the day though it might as well have been 2 vs 2 considering how little Fletchling added to it all.

 

[PokemonNation2000]

Ash showed no reservations about following that rule and giving himself an advantage in a gym match, a benchmark test for his skills, this is OOC considering he was against taking badges without earning them and giving himself boost to move the match in his favor. And Grant said he could use all the Pokemon he had on hand and he's a nice, chill and relaxed guy. Roxie was forcing him to and he even showed apprehensions about doing so but zero here and he could have simply told Grant he would rather just use two Pokemon and not one. Nice job missing the point.

Excellent point you raised here: can't believe I didn't notice this!

 

[Blue Saturday]

Im not gonna really argue this, at the end of the day though it might as well have been 2 vs 2 considering how little Fletchling added to it all.

Tyrunt still used energy to fight it, both Pokemon participated, Fletchling smacked Tyrunt with Steel Wing. Fletchling was apart of the battle. No matter how you slice it. I'm just wondering if people would feel the same if Clemont had used Bunnelby and Dedenne to fight Citroid or Iris had used Dragonite and Axew to fight Clair, it wouldn't matter if Axew and Dedenne "added little to nothing" wrong. They would still play a part in the match and ultimately doing something of worth, no matter how small to the opposition to lead to the victory. Despite the power gap between them and their teammate.

 

[Almighty Zard]

Ash showed no reservations about following that rule and giving himself an advantage in a gym match, a benchmark test for his skills, this is OOC considering he was against taking badges without earning them and giving himself boost to move the match in his favor.

There's a big difference between not battling at all and having a handicap in battle.

And Grant said he could use all the Pokemon he had on hand and he's a nice, chill and relaxed guy. Roxie was forcing him to and he even showed apprehensions about doing so but zero here and he could have simply told Grant he would rather just use two Pokemon and not one. Nice job missing the point.

You obviously don't remember Roxie's personality, compared to grant's calm demeanor she was extremely overconfident, and hyperactive due to being the leader of a band in addition to being a gym leader, Ash was never forced to use all of his pokemon, because that's saying he'd have to bring out all of his pokemon or he'd lose, he was given the option to use all six against Roxie and all against Grant, if a gym leader wants to give their opponents a handicap that's their problem and they can't have excuses if they lose because of that.

It is not Ash's fault for taking advantage of the rules put down before him.

 

[Soniman]

Tyrunt still used energy to fight it, both Pokemon participated, Fletchling smacked Tyrunt with Steel Wing. Fletchling was apart of the battle. No matter how you slice it. I'm just wondering if people would feel the same if Clemont had used Bunnelby and Dedenne to fight Citroid or Iris had used Dragonite and Axew to fight Clair, it wouldn't matter if Axew and Dedenne "added little to nothing" wrong. They would still play a part in the match and ultimately doing something of worth, no matter how small to the opposition to lead to the victory. Despite the power gap between them and their teammate.

I just figured, despite what power Fletching could have brought to the table, Ash would want to use him because he was right there training alongside Froakie and Pikachu, I dont suppose he would want it to go to waste.

Like I said, im not really arguing your point, I just thought it was rather nice of Ash to include everyone in this match when he was given the option to do so, because they all pitched in to do the training and I guess they kinda all deserve to get some piece of the pie so to speak.

 

[charizardfan]

Honestly I think Froakies performance outshines Pikachu's in this episode. I didn't really get the feeling of him being over-glorified. Pikachu IS Ash's strongest Pokemon at this point and Tyrunt had to go through two other pokemon before getting to Pikachu. It's reasonable that he was just starting to get worn out by the time Pikachu came out.

I don’t remember anything suggesting that Tyrunt was tired by the time it got to Pikachu. It shrugged off the only amount of damage Fletchling, who came after Froakie, was able to lay on it like it was nothing.

Which was good. Because that meant that rather than Ash and Pikachu beating Tyrunt because it was exhausted from going through two battles, Pikachu was simply the stronger Pokemon and Ash just took advantage of Pikachu’s better points. I don't remember any moment where Tyrunt ever had Pikachu in a dangerous position. I could still have done without the 3 vs. 2 thing and I hope other Gyms go back to the usual kind of battles, because Fletchling just didn’t need to be there (it didn't significantly affect the battle either way), but this battle is how you execute it so that your protagonist still looks like he won on his own skills and the strengths of his Pokemon.

I do agree that the Froakie vs. Onix was the best part of this battle, though.

 

[Cresselia92]

From what I've read, it seems that Fletchling was used to "scout" Tyrunt's moves. If that's truly the case, that's a quite clever tactic (Paul's strategy with Aggron and Gastrodon anyone?).

I would have preferred to see a 2vs2 or a 3vs3, but the battle was still nice and dynamic and Froakie was simply awesome. Much better than the Roxie's match, imo.

 

[Sprinter1988]

This episode looks very interesting. Nice to see Froakie getting some action in this one. I don't get the 3 vs 2 thing, but that's ok - Grant's playing by his own rules, and it makes a change from the usual 3 vs 3 thing we've had at most gyms since Clair was battled in Johto. If something like this happens again though, then they'll either have to put a cap on the number of pokemon that Ash uses, or give the future Gym Leaders more pokemon than the had in the games - God forbid we should get another Ash vs Roxie situation, as that was actually very damning of Ash's Unova team, and right before the league as well.

 

[Blue Saturday]

I don’t remember anything suggesting that Tyrunt was tired by the time it got to Pikachu. It shrugged off the only amount of damage Fletchling, who came after Froakie, was able to lay on it like it was nothing.

Tyrunt still took damage, no matter how small, and Ash still used a third Pokemon. Bubble and Razor Wind did pretty much nothing, but Tyrunt did show some pain at getting smacked by Steel Wing. So Fletchling contributed to the victory.

I do agree that the Froakie vs. Onix was the best part of this battle, though.

Yeah, which is surprising since I dreaded seeing another Onix in a gym battle match but now that I think about it well the same aerial perspective and sense of grandeur in the match couldn't have probably been portrayed without such a massive Pokemon and target, nor could the same strategy have been pulled off as effectively and the battle been as intense. So I actually am grateful for Onix's inclusion, especially with it being hyped up as being a power-player effectively in the last Chateau episode.

I just figured, despite what power Fletching could have brought to the table, Ash would want to use him because he was right there training alongside Froakie and Pikachu, I dont suppose he would want it to go to waste.

That idea of "teamwork" could have easily been portrayed by not axing Amaura from Grant's team and using it in-addition to Tyrunt and Onix.

Like I said, im not really arguing your point

It's no problem, I'm not expecting to change anyone's mind. It's just a decent way of showing the double standard's among the forum and Ash hasn't gone away.

There's a big difference between not battling at all and having a handicap in battle.

Who's saying he won't battle? I'm not.

You obviously don't remember Roxie's personality, compared to grant's calm demeanor she was extremely overconfident, and hyperactive due to being the leader of a band in addition to being a gym leader, Ash was never forced to use all of his pokemon, because that's saying he'd have to bring out all of his pokemon or he'd lose, he was given the option to use all six against Roxie and all against Grant, if a gym leader wants to give their opponents a handicap that's their problem and they can't have excuses if they lose because of that.

It is not Ash's fault for taking advantage of the rules put down before him.

No, Roxie was pretty adamant about using his full team to fight her. Grant was not and Ash had no problem taking advantage of an uneven amount of Pokemon to give himself a leg up over Grant, he was entirely against it against Roxie.

 

[Soniman]

Just to avoid another misunderstanding, ill probably just wait for subs to get full context to it all.

 

[charizardfan]

So Fletchling contributed to the victory.

I admit I forgot about Steel Wing but that doesn't really change the point because I never said Fletchling didn’t contribute at all. I said that it didn’t significantly affect the battle either way, as if its inclusion was vital to Ash's victory. With or without it Ash’s final win over Tyrunt was, as far as I could tell, brought about primarily by the way he used Pikachu and its own strength.

It's just a decent way of showing the double standard's among the forum and Ash hasn't gone away.

Just in case this is targeted at anything I've posted...

And as I’ve said more than once here and in the preview thread, allowing the challenger to use more Pokemon than the Gym Leader is still a bad idea and I hope to never see that again. This particular battle was just executed well enough that Ash comes across like he won on his skill and not only because the Gym Leader seemingly did everything they reasonably could to hand him the victory - which was my main issue with Roxie, who actually went as far as to stop the battle so she could heal one of Ash's Pokemon.

That’s not a double standard at all.

 

[Dragoniss]

I don't really find the fact that Ash took advantage of the rules that were laid out from in in the beginning out of character. It was Ash being smart. I would have rather seen him be smart and use all of his pokemon than potentially risk it all and only use two. As of right now in the pokemon series it's kinda cliche for Ash to either give himself a handicap or bend the rules to make it a fair fight. It was actually relieving to see Ash actually take advantage of everything given to him and use it to the best of his abilities to pull out a victory. This is how it should be done. That's how it's done in the real world. Sports teams take advantage of re-watching old tapes of games and observing the opponent. They take full advantage of all the rules given to them to try and claim victory. Really a sporting event is no different than a gym battle. Why should Ash have limited himself? He has every single right to use all of his pokemon.

And in fact i'm gad for this. It gave us the chance to see Ash's pokemon working as a team. Which is good, every pokemon was showcased in this battle and all played their part, not matter how small that part, they were still an important part to the team. Froakie took out Onix and worn down Tyrunt a bit even if it didn't really look like it. Fletchling worn Tyrunt down a bit more considering Tyrunt was hit with his attacks and scouted out his moves. It caused Tyrunt to use Draco Meteor, and if the attack works anything like the games It could be reasonable to assume the next Draco Meteor wouldn't be as strong. Hence why Pikachu was able to work around it so well and finish the job. They all worked as a team to win and this is what I like to see. It shows Ash has grown as a trainer and understands "the super power of teamwork".

 

[Blue Saturday]

I admit I forgot about Steel Wing but that doesn't really change the point - I never said Fletchling didn’t contribute at all. I said that it didn’t significantly affect the battle either way as if its inclusion was vital. With or without it Ash’s final victory over Tyrunt was, as far as I could tell, brought about primarily by the way he used Pikachu and its own strength.

Ash still used a third regardless, still was used. Contribution or worth aside it was used. Ash is going to win because he's the MC obviously. So your argument that the battle would have been a forgone conclusion surely without the bird doesn't have a leg to stand on, assuming the plot wasn't working for him having a numbers advantage against a gym leader can't be overlooked. It is double-standards, because trust me if another character battled a gym leader and won with a numbers advantage then they would get so much hate.

Next thing you know Ash is gonna be given pity badges and fans will defend it as being okay because he helped out against Team Flare or something. Every excuse in the book for Ash, not throwing criticism and super-excuses at Ash directly but at the writing around him. A.K.A Grant or Fletchling.

 

[Rare_Candy]

Was it Team Flare's Battle Music? I thought it was Lysandre's Battle Theme that played. If I'm not mistaken, that would be the first time a battle theme from an Evil Team Leader is used in the anime.

It was Lysandre's.

And this episode was really awesome !
Can't wait to see Korrina and how Ash is going to handle the battle against her.

 

[RVD_fan]

From what I've read, it seems that Fletchling was used to "scout" Tyrunt's moves. If that's truly the case, that's a quite clever tactic (Paul's strategy with Aggron and Gastrodon anyone?).

Didn't Cilan specifically mention in the battle against Cameron when Ash sent out his Oshawott against Hydreigon that Ash doesn't use his Pokemon just for scouts or set-ups?

I didn't really see the point of making it 3-on-2, you could've just focused on Froakie for wearing down Tyrunt. I feel like it's a bit of a disservice to all the Gym Leaders Ash has defeated to be giving him big advantages at this stage.

Pretty good Gym battle, I like how they incorporated the rock-climbing theme into the battle with Froakie jumping on Rock Tomb and Pikachu on Draco Meteor. I don't think any of Ash's Pokemon got a huge boost from this but it was a decent team effort.

Also, that Elite Four remix is pretty tasty.

 

[Blue Saturday]

Pretty good Gym battle, I like how they incorporated the rock-climbing theme into the battle with Froakie jumping on Rock Tomb and Pikachu on Draco Meteor.

I actually didn't catch that allusion, that's actually pretty great imo.

 

[Cresselia92]

Didn't Cilan specifically mention in the battle against Cameron when Ash sent out his Oshawott against Hydreigon that Ash doesn't use his Pokemon just for scouts or set-ups?

We can look in this way: Ash has seen already various Hydreigon before his match with Cameron, so he already knew more or less the techniques of the species, and as such was more focused in damaging it as much as he could. Tyrunt however was a completely new species, so he had to test the ground and find more about it. That could be an interpretation. And besides, different opponents require different tactics. There is nothing wrong in developing new strategies according to the situation.

I didn't really see the point of making it 3-on-2, you could've just focused on Froakie for wearing down Tyrunt. I feel like it's a bit of a disservice to all the Gym Leaders Ash has defeated to be giving him big advantages at this stage.

I don't see the point either, a part of making it closer to the games. But from what I've seen, if the rules were a strict 2vs2 and Ash had more or less the same performance, I think he could have won even with using only Froakie and Pikachu.

 

[charizardfan]

Ash still used a third regardless, still was used. Contribution or worth aside it was used. Ash is going to win because he's the MC obviously. So your argument that the battle would have been a forgone conclusion surely without the bird doesn't have a leg to stand on, assuming the plot wasn't working for him having a numbers advantage against a gym leader can't be overlooked. It is double-standards, because trust me if another character battled a gym leader and won with a numbers advantage then they would get so much hate.

You're basing a part of your statement - "because trust me if another character battled a gym leader and won with a numbers advantage then they would get so much hate" - off things that haven't even happened, and my argument is the one that doesn't have a leg to stand on?

Just as I criticize the Roxie battle because Ash had a ridiculously high numbers advantage (6-3), I've continued to criticize the Grant battle on the same thing - because Ash had a numbers advantage that should never have been given to him. If you actually read everything I wrote on the subject in both threads, you'd know that. So your claim for double standards, at least as far as I'm concerned, is absolutely untrue.

But I also criticize Ash vs. Roxie because the way the entire battle (where the numbers advantage was only a part of it, albeit not a small one) was executed made it come off less like Ash achieved anything on his own and more like Roxie did everything she reasonably could to help him (e.g. giving him a berry to heal one of his his Pokemon during the battle) short of just giving him the Badge. I do praise Ash vs. Grant for executing Ash's ultimate triumph well - by having Ash make good use of his Pikachu's strengths to beat Tyrunt, and not doing things like having Grant take any major step to save Ash from defeat, like healing his Pokemon mid-battle - despite of the numbers advantage, which I didn't feel the Roxie battle did. You can in favor of Roxie's battle (or against Grant's) if you want, but if you're saying that the claim itself is a double standard - when I've already explained what I think separates the two in their execution - then I'd have to question if you even know how double standards work.

I never said Ash didn't use Fletchling, or that it didn't make any contribution towards the battle. And using the excuse of the plot is a terrible argument to make because that same plot has worked for and against Ash, as well as everybody else. Before you criticize my argument, how about actually reading all of it instead of arguing claims I've never made?

Next thing you know Ash is gonna be given pity badges and fans will defend it as being okay because he helped out against Team Flare or something.

First off, that's not even true. While I'm sure there are those who would defend - just as there are fans who do their hardest to excuse the worst traits of any character - there are also people who have criticized Ash's actual pity badges, where he never actually defeated the Gym Leader, in Kanto (or against Pryce, Wattson, and Maylene.). I'm one of them.

Second, if your argument hinges on speculation (which this statement does, considering none of this has happened in XY) then it's a sign that your argument isn't a good one.