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MewForever
Well-Known Member
Once And For All...
Below is my argument that I have written off the whim at 5am out of sheer desire to stop this madness. I hope that for those who remained loyal, this will strengthen your belief.
Once and for all, Mewtwo vs Arceus...
I've come back to the world of Pokemon after ~5 years to dispel a disturbing notion that I see spreading like wildfire. There are many who choose to believe this new legendary Pokemon called Arceus is now the most powerful Pokemon in the universe, surpassing Mewtwo who has held the title since the beginning of the Pokemon franchise. I contest this as complete blasphemy. Mewtwo is the ultimate Pokemon and will always be the ultimate Pokemon. This is not about a comparison of the game's base stats. I am in high levels of Calculus, I can do the math. 720 > 680. I have enlightened myself to the backstories of all the main Pokemon that I have missed since I've been gone. I know that Arceus is supposed to be a God-like Pokemon who is rumored (key word is rumored, as in, for the sake of lore) to have created the entire universe. I do not believe that gives any inclination as to who is the more powerful Pokemon; otherwise, Arceus should have a base stat of over 9000. It doesn't. I am also aware that Arceus can hold 16 different plates to change its type. This gives a huge advantage in that in could be able to select the one that is super effective against the Pokemon it would be against, in this case, Mewtwo. But Mewtwo is the perfect weapon. Cloned from the very purest of all Pokemon, Mew, and enhanced to be the STRONGEST ever. It is outright stated in the movies, anime, and books. He is a Psychic-type, noted to be one of the very strongest types. He is (I believe) the only Pokemon to this day that can speak to humans at an unbelievably sophisticated and intelligent level. He displays unparalleled strategic ability and is the only Pokemon that has also been a "Pokemon Master". His creation made him bitter and longing, producing limitless power that has never been completely revealed. Again, I will reiterate; Palkia and Dialga, who are also part of the Creation Trio, are listed at 680 base stat, tied with Mewtwo. If their abilities to bend time and dimensions actually meant anything, they wouldn't be near Mewtwo. That's why comparing base stats is meaningless, though it was at least fitting that Mewtwo held the highest base state for the entire span of the franchise until recently. The only way to compare would be the anime. I am positive that if Mewtwo and Arceus met, Mewtwo would outwit and outmaneuver Arceus while possibly controlling the battle outright with his unmatched Psychic abilities. And that is why Mewtwo is still the strongest Pokemon in the universe, and likely always will be. Being a God-like Pokemon means nothing. It's simply a title. Mewtwo's sheer power and wits.... have never been matched. The direction of Pokemon today worries me. But one thing will never be in question, and that is the power of Mewtwo.
Below is my argument that I have written off the whim at 5am out of sheer desire to stop this madness. I hope that for those who remained loyal, this will strengthen your belief.
Once and for all, Mewtwo vs Arceus...
I've come back to the world of Pokemon after ~5 years to dispel a disturbing notion that I see spreading like wildfire. There are many who choose to believe this new legendary Pokemon called Arceus is now the most powerful Pokemon in the universe, surpassing Mewtwo who has held the title since the beginning of the Pokemon franchise. I contest this as complete blasphemy. Mewtwo is the ultimate Pokemon and will always be the ultimate Pokemon. This is not about a comparison of the game's base stats. I am in high levels of Calculus, I can do the math. 720 > 680. I have enlightened myself to the backstories of all the main Pokemon that I have missed since I've been gone. I know that Arceus is supposed to be a God-like Pokemon who is rumored (key word is rumored, as in, for the sake of lore) to have created the entire universe. I do not believe that gives any inclination as to who is the more powerful Pokemon; otherwise, Arceus should have a base stat of over 9000. It doesn't. I am also aware that Arceus can hold 16 different plates to change its type. This gives a huge advantage in that in could be able to select the one that is super effective against the Pokemon it would be against, in this case, Mewtwo. But Mewtwo is the perfect weapon. Cloned from the very purest of all Pokemon, Mew, and enhanced to be the STRONGEST ever. It is outright stated in the movies, anime, and books. He is a Psychic-type, noted to be one of the very strongest types. He is (I believe) the only Pokemon to this day that can speak to humans at an unbelievably sophisticated and intelligent level. He displays unparalleled strategic ability and is the only Pokemon that has also been a "Pokemon Master". His creation made him bitter and longing, producing limitless power that has never been completely revealed. Again, I will reiterate; Palkia and Dialga, who are also part of the Creation Trio, are listed at 680 base stat, tied with Mewtwo. If their abilities to bend time and dimensions actually meant anything, they wouldn't be near Mewtwo. That's why comparing base stats is meaningless, though it was at least fitting that Mewtwo held the highest base state for the entire span of the franchise until recently. The only way to compare would be the anime. I am positive that if Mewtwo and Arceus met, Mewtwo would outwit and outmaneuver Arceus while possibly controlling the battle outright with his unmatched Psychic abilities. And that is why Mewtwo is still the strongest Pokemon in the universe, and likely always will be. Being a God-like Pokemon means nothing. It's simply a title. Mewtwo's sheer power and wits.... have never been matched. The direction of Pokemon today worries me. But one thing will never be in question, and that is the power of Mewtwo.
Well, yes, the night part, as they are owls and all, as well as the fact I find they look slightly evil. But that's just my opinion.
I like the idea, but the one error in this idea is, well... human error, I suppose. The strongest this me can make right now cannot compare to the energy a star produces, and what me made last year pales in comparison to what we make now.
Also, think of it like this: Arceus made the universe, the universe made humans, humans made Mewtwo - so, in essence, a minute part of Arceus' energy made Mewtwo, to Arceus is stronger.
Beside, no matter how powerful it is, Mewtwo's psychic will never hit a dark-type Arceus, and Arceus will just hit back with power which created the universe.
But that's just my opinion.
EDIT: And, oh yeah, Mewtwo never beat Mew, so it isn't the strongest.
rohit_1997
Wait,what!?
And where exactly do you think would it acquire a dark plate from?
Arceus was damaged by a meteor,and Mewtwo can actually manipulate a meteor using it's psychic powers (use your intelligence here).
Yet Mewtwo was at one point enslaved by humans, and last ime I checked Mewtwo never created a universe (you use your intelligence here).
MewForever
Well-Known Member
Everything I wrote in the original post dismisses what you just said though.......
It is only a legend that Arceus created Sinnoh, and possibly the entire Pokemon world. It is complete legend. Thereby, it in no way created the entire universe. It did not create humans. It does not have the power of a star, as you have said. It is no more than an ancient Pokemon, similar to Rayquaza, Groudon, and Kyogre. It is extremely powerful, but you, and so many others, have placed this mystic around it because it is rumored to have created the Pokemon world. Again, I repeat, having God-like status does not make you unbeatable. When it comes down to tic for tac, Mewtwo has the advantage in sheer power and intellect, as has been demonstrated in the movies, anime, and books. The thing I have noticed with so many of these ancient Pokemon storylines is that they do not seem to be very cunning. They have their primal instincts, ex. defend land, ocean, sky, and will battle brutally for their cause, but they are in no way what I would call intellectual. Mewtwo on the other hand is intellectual and possesses unimaginable power. I don't think you can comprehend how powerful and unlimited Mewtwo's Psychic abilities are. If you're going to talk about giving Arceus a Dark Plate, aka an outside advantage, then you would have to compensate an advantage for Mewtwo as well. Arceus untouched is merely a Normal type. But we shouldn't even have to get into Type matchups, seeing how in Mewtwo Strikes Back, Pikachu 1 hit KO'd a Golem with Thunder Shock. Think about that. Now don't even try and tell me Mewtwo would have a problem in an anime setting with getting around a Dark Plate. You're last sentence baffles me. I just watched Mewtwo Stikes Back for the first time in years a few hours ago, so I am completely fresh on everything that happened. You do remember that Mewtwo stopped the fighting (that he induced by his own telepathic powers) by his own will, once he saw the sacrifice Ash had made? You do realize he was preventing around 100 Pokemon from having the ability to use Special Attacks, telepathically, to prove that his clones were, in fact, superior, all the while fighting Mew (who in the anime is also considered extremely strong)? It is of no question in my mind that had Mewtwo not had a change of heart he would be ruling the Pokemon world right now. But that was the point. Everything this franchise has ever done, began with Mew and Mewtwo. It was about him finding his place in the world he was thrust into. The ending was about his redemption. He stopped the fight, no one ever stopped him.
It is only a legend that Arceus created Sinnoh, and possibly the entire Pokemon world. It is complete legend. Thereby, it in no way created the entire universe. It did not create humans. It does not have the power of a star, as you have said. It is no more than an ancient Pokemon, similar to Rayquaza, Groudon, and Kyogre. It is extremely powerful, but you, and so many others, have placed this mystic around it because it is rumored to have created the Pokemon world. Again, I repeat, having God-like status does not make you unbeatable. When it comes down to tic for tac, Mewtwo has the advantage in sheer power and intellect, as has been demonstrated in the movies, anime, and books. The thing I have noticed with so many of these ancient Pokemon storylines is that they do not seem to be very cunning. They have their primal instincts, ex. defend land, ocean, sky, and will battle brutally for their cause, but they are in no way what I would call intellectual. Mewtwo on the other hand is intellectual and possesses unimaginable power. I don't think you can comprehend how powerful and unlimited Mewtwo's Psychic abilities are. If you're going to talk about giving Arceus a Dark Plate, aka an outside advantage, then you would have to compensate an advantage for Mewtwo as well. Arceus untouched is merely a Normal type. But we shouldn't even have to get into Type matchups, seeing how in Mewtwo Strikes Back, Pikachu 1 hit KO'd a Golem with Thunder Shock. Think about that. Now don't even try and tell me Mewtwo would have a problem in an anime setting with getting around a Dark Plate. You're last sentence baffles me. I just watched Mewtwo Stikes Back for the first time in years a few hours ago, so I am completely fresh on everything that happened. You do remember that Mewtwo stopped the fighting (that he induced by his own telepathic powers) by his own will, once he saw the sacrifice Ash had made? You do realize he was preventing around 100 Pokemon from having the ability to use Special Attacks, telepathically, to prove that his clones were, in fact, superior, all the while fighting Mew (who in the anime is also considered extremely strong)? It is of no question in my mind that had Mewtwo not had a change of heart he would be ruling the Pokemon world right now. But that was the point. Everything this franchise has ever done, began with Mew and Mewtwo. It was about him finding his place in the world he was thrust into. The ending was about his redemption. He stopped the fight, no one ever stopped him.
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Have you seen the movie Arceus and the Jewel of Life? Arceus created the universe. Wait, are we going by game or movie, because Arceus is just a legend in game but god in the movie. Also, if they were to fight, the one on Ash's side would win, so that's a bad argument.
It doesn't matter about how the franchise developed - it doesn't make Mewtwo any more powerful.
Wait, did you say god-like status doesn't mean unbeatable? I'm afraid it does, considering what a god is and all.
The mere fact that Arceus made Time, Space and Antimatter, as well as knowledge, will, and emotion without cloning gives you a hint at who has more power.
I also believe that personal fans of either Mewtwo or Arceus will argue immensly and this debate will go on for ages, but I believe that the being that created all things (according to the anime, like how Mewtwo stopped some petty fighting) in the Big Bang is also undefeated (well, he was trapped, but Mewtwo would have dies if it wasn't for magic water in the lake).
It doesn't matter about how the franchise developed - it doesn't make Mewtwo any more powerful.
Wait, did you say god-like status doesn't mean unbeatable? I'm afraid it does, considering what a god is and all.
The mere fact that Arceus made Time, Space and Antimatter, as well as knowledge, will, and emotion without cloning gives you a hint at who has more power.
I also believe that personal fans of either Mewtwo or Arceus will argue immensly and this debate will go on for ages, but I believe that the being that created all things (according to the anime, like how Mewtwo stopped some petty fighting) in the Big Bang is also undefeated (well, he was trapped, but Mewtwo would have dies if it wasn't for magic water in the lake).
Well, Arceus without it's plates is extremely weak, and Mewtwo would have no trouble abolishing it, yet in it's powerful forme, even without a valid type advantage Arceus would defeat Mewtwo, as in Arceus and the Jewel of Life, it pwns Palkia, Dialga and Giritina at the same time
MewForever
Well-Known Member
"are you trying to determine whether mewtwo's stronger in the game or the anime?"
We could do both, but originally I was aiming for just the anime/everything not in the games.
We could do both, but originally I was aiming for just the anime/everything not in the games.
Most of the time MewForever just mixed the game and anime up to make Mewtwo somehow sound more superior
100% agree with this
well, in the anime it would be stronger, as it created everything so it would of created mew which was used to create mewtwo.
in the game, its also stronger, just look at it's total stats.
EDIT: also, if i remember correctly, doesn't arceus have the ability to switch through all the plates in battle. if so the it could simply switch around it;s types when mew two tries to hit him and would be invincible.
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MewForever
Well-Known Member
Well I was using game details to fill in everything in between, since I have not sat down to watch M12 yet. But from all the backstories I have read, Arceus is only rumored to have created the Pokemon world. However, in the movie it is apparently different. For argument's sake, let's talk about the anime and let's call him the creator of the world.
It matters HEAVILY how the franchise developed, because they were HEAVILY dependent on Mewtwo and he kick started the entire franchise in the first movie, so of course his power is unquestioned. It had to be. That was the whole point. He is the most powerful Pokemon ever! And this was 14 years ago. Arceus has been around for billions of years supposedly. They knew about him. He existed. The legends didn't just suddenly appear in the past few years, at least not in the Pokemon world. They would have had to be around for thousands of years, like all Creation legends. Anyway, it is extremely important that Mewtwo was the focus of the first movie, seeing how that is why his power has never faded, unlike following legendaries.
Yes, I do believe I said God-like Pokemon are not unbeatable. As was mentioned, Arceus got messed up by a freaking meteor. Mewtwo could easily inflict damage exceeding that. He could hurl multiple meteors at Arceus if he would like. Like I said, you're caught up in the mystic of it being a God-like Pokemon. When I think of God-like Pokemon, I think of the Greek Gods. I liken Arceus to Zeus as the ruler, but they are in no way unbeatable, as Zeus was not.
Having done all those things, a Pokemon is still a Pokemon. Arceus would face Mewtwo just like any other, and it would have no advantages over any other Pokemon besides being strong.
Also, Mewtwo needed magic lake water because he sacrificed himself, like boss.
It matters HEAVILY how the franchise developed, because they were HEAVILY dependent on Mewtwo and he kick started the entire franchise in the first movie, so of course his power is unquestioned. It had to be. That was the whole point. He is the most powerful Pokemon ever! And this was 14 years ago. Arceus has been around for billions of years supposedly. They knew about him. He existed. The legends didn't just suddenly appear in the past few years, at least not in the Pokemon world. They would have had to be around for thousands of years, like all Creation legends. Anyway, it is extremely important that Mewtwo was the focus of the first movie, seeing how that is why his power has never faded, unlike following legendaries.
Yes, I do believe I said God-like Pokemon are not unbeatable. As was mentioned, Arceus got messed up by a freaking meteor. Mewtwo could easily inflict damage exceeding that. He could hurl multiple meteors at Arceus if he would like. Like I said, you're caught up in the mystic of it being a God-like Pokemon. When I think of God-like Pokemon, I think of the Greek Gods. I liken Arceus to Zeus as the ruler, but they are in no way unbeatable, as Zeus was not.
Having done all those things, a Pokemon is still a Pokemon. Arceus would face Mewtwo just like any other, and it would have no advantages over any other Pokemon besides being strong.
Also, Mewtwo needed magic lake water because he sacrificed himself, like boss.
MewForever
Well-Known Member
Aka,
Arceus is a Pokemon, albeit the creator of Pokemon.
Mewtwo is the perfect Pokemon.
Wouldn't the perfect Pokemon be stronger than any other Pokemon, even the creator? Does it say anywhere in the anime that Arceus is an omnipotent creature? Is it possible for it to allow something stronger than itself to exist? Because that's what seems to have happened. Using your logic, Arceus created the Pokemon world, and I guess people. People then created the perfect Pokemon, Mewtwo, using science. So it all comes full circle. Do you believe that science can create something stronger than the original?
And to find that answer...one must only look at Mew and Mewtwo, to which the answer, is yes.
(I say they just have Mewtwo face Arceus in the next movie)
Arceus is a Pokemon, albeit the creator of Pokemon.
Mewtwo is the perfect Pokemon.
Wouldn't the perfect Pokemon be stronger than any other Pokemon, even the creator? Does it say anywhere in the anime that Arceus is an omnipotent creature? Is it possible for it to allow something stronger than itself to exist? Because that's what seems to have happened. Using your logic, Arceus created the Pokemon world, and I guess people. People then created the perfect Pokemon, Mewtwo, using science. So it all comes full circle. Do you believe that science can create something stronger than the original?
And to find that answer...one must only look at Mew and Mewtwo, to which the answer, is yes.
(I say they just have Mewtwo face Arceus in the next movie)
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