>>>> Closed Thread Container <<<<

[Hejiru]

What this stems from is what the official canon said to being with. Mewtwo was called the most powerful Pokemon over and over again. It was designed to be a "final boss." An ultimate Pokemon to complete the original Pokedex.

But the problem is that they haven't called him that since Arceus was introduced. BUT that doesn't mean Arceus is now most powerful; they haven't called Arceus the most powerful either. But that doesn't mean they were hailing Mewtwo as the ultimate Pokemon and suddenly stopped when Arceus came out. They pretty much ignored Mewtwo since Gen 3. Even when FRLG came out Mewtwo was ignored. So we don't know if Mewtwo is still the canon "most powerful Pokemon."

Further confusing the issue is the fact that western religion is our frame of reference when we hear about a 'god' Pokemon. People tend to equate Arceus with the Judeo-Christian God. It's not. Arceus draws heavily from Shinto and Taoism; the "egg" origin myth is an exact copy of their origin myth. Arceus is not an almighty, infallible God. It's extremely powerful, but not omnipotent. Heck in the movie we even see Arceus on the verge of death being rescuing by a lowly human. That's not a western image of God.
My point in all this is that it's entirely conceivable that humans could create a Pokemon more powerful than the creator Pokemon. Arceus (allegedly) creating the world does not automatically mean it's the most powerful Pokemon ever.

Also, BST is no the end-all indicator of power. Otherwise Dugtrio wouldn't be four tiers above Regigigas.

 

[Spacial]

Mewtwo isn't the perfect Pokemon; if you were a clone, you wouldn't be perfect, would you? There'd be odd genes and stuff.

Arceus, as MewForever is saying, created the world, creating people, who ultimately created Mewtwo, so Arceus should have superiority over Mewtwo

 

[MewForever]

What this stems from is what the official canon said to being with. Mewtwo was called the most powerful Pokemon over and over again. It was designed to be a "final boss." An ultimate Pokemon to complete the original Pokedex.

But the problem is that they haven't called him that since Arceus was introduced. BUT that doesn't mean Arceus is now most powerful; they haven't called Arceus the most powerful either. But that doesn't mean they were hailing Mewtwo as the ultimate Pokemon and suddenly stopped when Arceus came out. They pretty much ignored Mewtwo since Gen 3. Even when FRLG came out Mewtwo was ignored. So we don't know if Mewtwo is still the canon "most powerful Pokemon."

Further confusing the issue is the fact that western religion is our frame of reference when we hear about a 'god' Pokemon. People tend to equate Arceus with the Judeo-Christian God. It's not. Arceus draws heavily from Shinto and Taoism; the "egg" origin myth is an exact copy of their origin myth. Arceus is not an almighty, infallible God. It's extremely powerful, but not omnipotent. Heck in the movie we even see Arceus on the verge of death being rescuing by a lowly human. That's not a western image of God.
My point in all this is that it's entirely conceivable that humans could create a Pokemon more powerful than the creator Pokemon. Arceus (allegedly) creating the world does not automatically mean it's the most powerful Pokemon ever.

Also, BST is no the end-all indicator of power. Otherwise Dugtrio wouldn't be four tiers above Regigigas.

Thank you. Everything you said is completely valid, and I agree.

 

[FusionKT]

Mewtwo isn't the perfect Pokemon; if you were a clone, you wouldn't be perfect, would you? There'd be odd genes and stuff.

Arceus, as MewForever is saying, created the world, creating people, who ultimately created Mewtwo, so Arceus should have superiority over Mewtwo

my opinion exactly. last time i checked mewtwo couldn't create worlds.

 

[MewForever]

Mewtwo isn't the perfect Pokemon; if you were a clone, you wouldn't be perfect, would you? There'd be odd genes and stuff.

Arceus, as MewForever is saying, created the world, creating people, who ultimately created Mewtwo, so Arceus should have superiority over Mewtwo

I disagree; if you read my post you would see that I said that science can create something better than the original.

Hejiru stated everything I have been thinking/saying/trying to say. Arceus is not omnipotent. It is not a Judeo-Christian-like, God Pokemon. It is beatable. It is very possible, and I say probable, that a Pokemon as powerful as Mewtwo, a genetically enhanced clone designed as the perfect weapon, would defeat Arceus.

 

[Hejiru]

Mewtwo isn't the perfect Pokemon; if you were a clone, you wouldn't be perfect, would you? There'd be odd genes and stuff.

Arceus, as MewForever is saying, created the world, creating people, who ultimately created Mewtwo, so Arceus should have superiority over Mewtwo

You're still thinking of Arceus is terms of western religion. Arceus is not an infallible god, he (allegedly) created the world. There's a difference. In fact, nowhere in canon is Arceus called a god. And as far I can recall, it never once said that Arceus created humans, or Pokemon for that matter (besides the lake trio and the creation trio.)

 

[FusionKT]

You're still thinking of Arceus is terms of western religion. Arceus is not an infallible god, he (allegedly) created the world. There's a difference. In fact, nowhere in canon is Arceus called a god. And as far I can recall, it never once said that Arceus created humans, or Pokemon for that matter (besides the lake trio and the creation trio.)

it says that arceus created all there is in the world in the HGSS pokedex, but I'm not sure if we are going by the anime or game or both.

 

[MewForever]

What this stems from is what the official canon said to being with. Mewtwo was called the most powerful Pokemon over and over again. It was designed to be a "final boss." An ultimate Pokemon to complete the original Pokedex.

But the problem is that they haven't called him that since Arceus was introduced. BUT that doesn't mean Arceus is now most powerful; they haven't called Arceus the most powerful either. But that doesn't mean they were hailing Mewtwo as the ultimate Pokemon and suddenly stopped when Arceus came out. They pretty much ignored Mewtwo since Gen 3. Even when FRLG came out Mewtwo was ignored. So we don't know if Mewtwo is still the canon "most powerful Pokemon."

Further confusing the issue is the fact that western religion is our frame of reference when we hear about a 'god' Pokemon. People tend to equate Arceus with the Judeo-Christian God. It's not. Arceus draws heavily from Shinto and Taoism; the "egg" origin myth is an exact copy of their origin myth. Arceus is not an almighty, infallible God. It's extremely powerful, but not omnipotent. Heck in the movie we even see Arceus on the verge of death being rescuing by a lowly human. That's not a western image of God.
My point in all this is that it's entirely conceivable that humans could create a Pokemon more powerful than the creator Pokemon. Arceus (allegedly) creating the world does not automatically mean it's the most powerful Pokemon ever.

Also, BST is no the end-all indicator of power. Otherwise Dugtrio wouldn't be four tiers above Regigigas.

You brought up a good point about them largely ignoring Mewtwo since Gen III. I feel that they have done so because they wanted to move in a new direction. They used Mewtwo as the launching pad for unbelievable success, and after they had a good footing, they moved on. First it was to Hoenn, then Sinnoh, now Unova. You could say that just the fact that they would even entertain the idea of a Pokemon like Arceus means that they are done with Mewtwo. Or, maybe they are planning some great return for the strongest Pokemon ever. I don't know. But I do find it odd that they have done so little with him considering how much he means to the franchise.

 

[Scaldaver]

Well I was using game details to fill in everything in between, since I have not sat down to watch M12 yet. But from all the backstories I have read, Arceus is only rumored to have created the Pokemon world. However, in the movie it is apparently different. For argument's sake, let's talk about the anime and let's call him the creator of the world.

It matters HEAVILY how the franchise developed, because they were HEAVILY dependent on Mewtwo and he kick started the entire franchise in the first movie, so of course his power is unquestioned. It had to be. That was the whole point. He is the most powerful Pokemon ever! And this was 14 years ago. Arceus has been around for billions of years supposedly. They knew about him. He existed. The legends didn't just suddenly appear in the past few years, at least not in the Pokemon world. They would have had to be around for thousands of years, like all Creation legends. Anyway, it is extremely important that Mewtwo was the focus of the first movie, seeing how that is why his power has never faded, unlike following legendaries.

Yes, I do believe I said God-like Pokemon are not unbeatable. As was mentioned, Arceus got messed up by a freaking meteor. Mewtwo could easily inflict damage exceeding that. He could hurl multiple meteors at Arceus if he would like. Like I said, you're caught up in the mystic of it being a God-like Pokemon. When I think of God-like Pokemon, I think of the Greek Gods. I liken Arceus to Zeus as the ruler, but they are in no way unbeatable, as Zeus was not.

Having done all those things, a Pokemon is still a Pokemon. Arceus would face Mewtwo just like any other, and it would have no advantages over any other Pokemon besides being strong.

Also, Mewtwo needed magic lake water because he sacrificed himself, like boss.


Aka,
Arceus is a Pokemon, albeit the creator of Pokemon.
Mewtwo is the perfect Pokemon.
Wouldn't the perfect Pokemon be stronger than any other Pokemon, even the creator? Does it say anywhere in the anime that Arceus is an omnipotent creature? Is it possible for it to allow something stronger than itself to exist? Because that's what seems to have happened. Using your logic, Arceus created the Pokemon world, and I guess people. People then created the perfect Pokemon, Mewtwo, using science. So it all comes full circle. Do you believe that science can create something stronger than the original?
And to find that answer...one must only look at Mew and Mewtwo, to which the answer, is yes.


(I say they just have Mewtwo face Arceus in the next movie)

Wait, who said Mewtwo was perfect? Just because something was made to be perfect, that doesn't make it so. For example, every invention made pales in comparison to the next design. Mewtwo is just a flawed human design - or else humans would never hurt it. Yeah, arceus gets captured, but hundreds of pkemon attacked it simultaneously

Mewtwo basically dies after electrocution - enough energy to power a city - nothing compared to the big bang.

Arceus basically dies after getting hit with a meteor - enough energy to melt a planet - Mewtwo has never shown that power.

Ok, so here's the deal - both of them go near to death because of human intervention - Mewtwo's electrocuted by humans (albeit of his free will - but he is still unable to clear all the humans off himself) while Arceus is ambushed, has hundreds of Pokemon electrocute him - he survives until they pour molten silver on him (or whatever). So, both have weaknesses, but, in the anime, in terms of strength and resistance, Arceus wins hands down.

 

[Crystal]

I see that MewForever is a newbie, and his first thread is to start an endless debate (or more probably, troll).

Your argument is contradicting all the points you had proposed, and logically doesn't make much sense.

I can provide you a list of all the facts, viewpoints, discussion, and some opinions that logically says Mewtwo is NOT more powerful than Arceus (but oppositely, I'm not hereby to say Arceus is omnipotent either).
But, I don't want to feed this troll, and I'm not going to continue this meaningless discussion.

Just one last word from me before I'm leaving: Please make your argument with reasonable logic.

 

[MewForever]

Wait, who said Mewtwo was perfect? Just because something was made to be perfect, that doesn't make it so. For example, every invention made pales in comparison to the next design. Mewtwo is just a flawed human design - or else humans would never hurt it. Yeah, arceus gets captured, but hundreds of pkemon attacked it simultaneously

Mewtwo basically dies after electrocution - enough energy to power a city - nothing compared to the big bang.

Arceus basically dies after getting hit with a meteor - enough energy to melt a planet - Mewtwo has never shown that power.

Ok, so here's the deal - both of them go near to death because of human intervention - Mewtwo's electrocuted by humans (albeit of his free will - but he is still unable to clear all the humans off himself) while Arceus is ambushed, has hundreds of Pokemon electrocute him - he survives until they pour molten silver on him (or whatever). So, both have weaknesses, but, in the anime, in terms of strength and resistance, Arceus wins hands down.

I disagree. You've never seen Mewtwo's true potential, when he was fully enraged. We likely never will. I would imagine you would be much weaker sacrificing yourself, however, then you would be in a rage of fury, as he was before the end of the first movie. Arceus, on the other hand, was fighting for its life. Desperation can lead to amazing feats. So I'd say those two near death experiences are not comparable.

 

[Hejiru]

it says that arceus created all there is in the world in the HGSS pokedex, but I'm not sure if we are going by the anime or game or both.

I didn't realize the HGSS Pokedex worded it that way. A slight change in wording can change the meaning of that, so we should really see how the Japanese version words it. Not to mention it contradicts what DPPt said:

In the beginning, there was only
a churning turmoil of chaos.
At the heart of chaos, where all
things became one, appeared an Egg.
Having tumbled from the vortex, the
Egg gave rise to the Original One.
From itself, two beings the Original
One did make.
Time started to spin.
Space began to expand.
From itself again, three living things
the Original One did make.
The two beings wished, and from them,
matter came to be.
The three living things wished, and
from them, spirit came to be.
The world created, the Original One
took to unyielding sleep...

That implies that Arceus created the world and the other Sinnoh legendaries associated with it, then went to sleep. (Oddly, it leaves out Giratina...) Considering how unreliable the Pokedex is to being with, I'd trust the actual myth over a Pokedex entry written by a ten-year-old.

But even if Arceus did create humans and Pokemon, it's irrelevant to my original point; creating the world does not automatically equal strongest Pokemon ever. There's nothing stopping humans from creating a Pokemon more powerful than the creator. So until future canon tells us, we don't know if Mewtwo or Arceus is stronger.

I see that MewForever is a newbie, and his first thread is to start an endless debate (or more probably, troll).

Your argument is contradicting all the points you had proposed, and logically doesn't make much sense.

I can provide you a list of all the facts, viewpoints, discussion, and some opinions that logically says Mewtwo is NOT more powerful than Arceus (but oppositely, I'm not hereby to say Arceus is omnipotent either).
But, I don't want to feed this troll, and I'm not going to continue this meaningless discussion.

Just one last word from me before I'm leaving: Please make your argument with reasonable logic.

We've been having a logical debate. Calling OP a troll is baseless and insulting and shows you don't understand what "trolling" means. If you're so much more logical than we are, then what are these amazing facts that prove Arceus > Mewtwo that we haven't already covered?

 

[MewForever]

I see that MewForever is a newbie, and his first thread is to start an endless debate (or more probably, troll).

Your argument is contradicting all the points you had proposed, and logically doesn't make much sense.

I can provide you a list of all the facts, viewpoints, discussion, and some opinions that logically says Mewtwo is NOT more powerful than Arceus (but oppositely, I'm not hereby to say Arceus is omnipotent either).
But, I don't want to feed this troll, and I'm not going to continue this meaningless discussion.

Just one last word from me before I'm leaving: Please make your argument with reasonable logic.

If you didn't take the time to read even a single line of my first post, then I'm not going to take the time for you, except to tell you I can and have provided more information and logical reasoning than you could provide in a week. Do not charge into a thread like an all knowing deity. You will be surprised by how often you turn out wrong.

 

[Scaldaver]

I disagree. You've never seen Mewtwo's true potential, when he was fully enraged. We likely never will. I would imagine you would be much weaker sacrificing yourself, however, then you would be in a rage of fury, as he was before the end of the first movie. Arceus, on the other hand, was fighting for its life. Desperation can lead to amazing feats. So I'd say those two near death experiences are not comparable.

So, if enraged, Mewtwo will create a universe? I think using what hasn't happened as part of an argument is a little illogical. For all we know, a really enraged arceus could destroy a million universes. So lets just go on what we've seen - the top thing I've seens Arceus do is start the universe, the best I've seen Mewtwo do is weaken 100+ Pokemon.

 

[MewForever]

So, if enraged, Mewtwo will create a universe? I think using what hasn't happened as part of an argument is a little illogical. For all we know, a really enraged arceus could destroy a million universes. So lets just go on what we've seen - the top thing I've seens Arceus do is start the universe, the best I've seen Mewtwo do is weaken 100+ Pokemon.

I don't think I need to justify what Mewtwo has done...He effortlessly swatted away every Pokemon that has ever come at him, minus his brief stalemate with Mew. Even more, he wasn't even damaged by their attacks. Since when has there been a Pokemon that doesn't even take damage? Pretty sure even Arceus takes damage. The only thing that I can ever remember harming Mewtwo was the custom built electric traps, and those weren't even Pokemon. Forgive me if I have forgotten, but has any Pokemon ever harmed Mewtwo?

 

[Born Better]

:facepalm:

Mewtwo gets a universe created in his face.The end.

Oh and Arceus is nowhere near omnipotent.He's low multiversal at best.

 

[MewForever]

I'll be back later. It's 9:48 AM on the East Coast and I still haven't slept.

 

[rohit_1997]

Yet Mewtwo was at one point enslaved by humans, and last ime I checked Mewtwo never created a universe (you use your intelligence here).

If a man creates a robot,does it mean that he can't be killed by it?
(you use your intelligence here)

 

[FusionKT]

If a man creates a robot,does it mean that he can't be killed by it?
(you use your intelligence here)

depends how the man programs it.

 

[345tom]

The problem with this is your judging everything you know of some research on the internet (quite flawed research, in my opinion, considering you have watched the film dedicated to Mewtwo, and showing how strong it is, yet not the film dedicated to Arceus) and your not taking in most points put towards you.

Personally, I don't think we can judge which Pokemon is stronger, at least at the moment. You claim that the only time Mewtwo was put under a challenge was against Mew, but then you have to factor in that Arceus beats three Legends hands down. You also claim that because it is manufactured it is the 'strongest' one. But you fail to notice that Mew, which it is cloned from, matches it strength for strength, clearly showing that it isn't stronger than everything else because it is manufactured.

You also have to factor in that in those many years, approximately 500 more pokemon have been discovered, and that rumours, legends and myths don't really traverse regions, so your claim of them knowing about this legend of Arceus and still calling Mewtwo the ultimate power is fairly mute. I mean, I know very few people who could tell you anything about Japanese mythology or the like.

You mention that Arceus is harmed by a meteor, and suggest the hypothetical scenario that Mewtwo would use his telekinetic abilities to stop it. You don't know the extent of Mewtwos powers, so don't know whether it could stop a meteor without tiring itself out.

You say limit its ability to have plates, but the plates, by my knowledge, are part of its life in the film, and thereby can't really be taken from it. Plus, as is previously mentioned, it has the ability to freely change between them in the film.

You also say its the only pokemon able to communicate with humans. I give you Meowth, Lucario, and I think Arceus can in the film, but like you havent seen it. There is likely more, and one of the given examples is in the film you have decided to use for your basis of your argument, and is by no means smart, and from Meowths origin it suggests that any pokemon with the mind to do it, could realistically learn to speak to humans.

But still, I know from reading your posts, that no matter what I say, because you were around originally for Mewtwo, to you it is the strongest pokemon, and no matter of sense, valid points, and logic will show you that it may not be the case. The only real way to know would be to let them duke it out.