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Club Double Trouble (a double battling community)

Discussion in 'Clubs' started by joej m, Dec 2, 2012.

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  1. jstinftw!

    jstinftw! hey trainer

    Also, you could consider running Ninetales normally, so that you can have two modes; Trick Room AND Sun, instead of forcing you to get both set ups up. You could have like, two Trick Room abusers, Ninetales (Not Iron Ball) & Sun abuser, TR starter that doesn't always need TR (Like Jellicent or something), and something with middling speed so you can live to not set up TR, but in cases where it is slower than the opposing Pokemon, you could opt to set Trick Room up. That way, you essentially have four modes to play in; Clear Skies No Trick Room, Trick Room, Sun Room, and Sun.

    And let's not forget that you can opt to bring either or both modes in for simply late game where you just need to make sure you can secure your win, or stage a comback. You could run you Sun mode first, with your Trick Room mode waiting in the back, or vice versa, or you could have bring just one mode to bring in late game, allowing you to simply weaken the opposing team before sending in the clean up team.

    What Silvershark said haha.




    ----------------------

    Edit: I've been working on a few teams, and I've currently settled into a team I'm getting fairly comfortable with. I am, however, having a hard time with my last slot.

    |Liepard|Breloom|Tornadus|Mamoswine|Hydreigon|Empoleon|

    I feel like Empoleon brings the least to my team, but it's a nice addition in the event Trick Room goes up, it's somewhat bulky plus it hits decently hard. Steel/Water is a nice defensive typing. But I feel like there aren't really any situations in which those qualities are enough for me to bring it to play. So I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions? I'm also kind of thinking of switching it out for Rotom-W, but now I'm kind of worried about Trick Room.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  2. zozo

    zozo SLIMED!

    Oh, really? I knew stat boosts/debuffs were taken into account, so I thought Burn would too. Well, that's good to know!

    That's something to consider, but it's starting to sound a bit too complicated for my taste, especially in VGCs where only 4 mons can be up at a time. Unless a TR setter was also my Sun user, which I probably should consider. I certainly didn't think about having more than one TR setter, which may be a good thing for me to try. Now this is starting to sound like the sort of team I'll have to work on and modify all through a VGC season. Which, I may just do. Always good to have a project! ^^
    I'm still not completely sold on Ninetales, though. I don't know what it is...maybe I've just beaten up too many of them, or maybe it's my aversion to most Fire types in general (one of my least favourite types, along with Fighting. Weird part is, Blaziken is my favourite Hoenn starter.) but they've never stood out to me as a particularly good Pokemon even after they got Drought added. Honestly, the only reason I got a couple of DW Vulpix when they were first released was a) for trading purposes and b) so I could breed Zorua with Dark Pulse and Extrasensory. But, hey, this is coming from the same person who sees some good value in Torkoal and Dusknoir so... yeah. I'm a little skewed I guess. xD

    Anyway, thanks again for the input, guys. I appreciate it! ^_^



    To be honest, it looks like you can probably gamble with Trick Room a bit with the lineup you have already. You've got Liepard (I'm assuming yours has Prankster), you've got Breloom (I'm assuming yours has Spore), and you've got Mamoswine (I'm assuming it has Ice Shard). Tornadus may have Prankster too, but it seems most people prefer Thundurus if they want a prank-playing Genie. I'm guessing that's because Thundurus has Thunder wave?
    Anyway, if you find you aren't using Empoleon enough to make him worthwhile, you could probably swap Rotom-W in there with few ill effects, especially if you're finding that lack of a water type is hurting your team.

    If you feel that you absolutely need a Water type that functions well in Trick Room, you could possibly try the old Iron Ball + Fling trick to make yourself able to switch into a Trick Room and hijack it, then Fling off the Iron Ball just before TR ends. Or, alternatively, Fling before TR goes up and effectively double your speed. Simipour, Ludicolo, and Poliwrath stand out as potential users of this sort of strategy that still retain that Water typing. Simipour has devastating speed once that Iron Ball is off, and it has pretty sweet attacking stats meaning it can take good advantage of the Fling damage while still being able to fire off powerful special Water type moves. The downside is, they don't have the beefiest defenses. They're not terrible, but they're okay. They're the kind of Pokemon you think is going to do horribly but are surprisingly good.

    Poliwrath has buff defenses, fair speed, specializes in attack, and, as a bonus, Fling would give some coverage to the Psychic types that Poliwrath fears. The big drawback is typing. Four weaknesses is kind of terrible, especially when 2 of them are the always-common Psychic and Electric types.

    Finally, there's Ludicolo. Ludicolo doesn't have as good of an attack stat as Simipour, but it's still passable. The speed is still okay after Iron ball is gone, and the defenses are definitely beefy enough to take a hit or two if you find you have to get rid of Iron Ball. The added bonus is that the typing is excellent (provided you aren't going into Volcarona's Bug Gen Bug Buzz or Dragonite's Hurricane), and it would be able to hijack Rain as well as Trick Room. Access to Leech Seed and Giga Drain isn't too shabby either.

    I hope that at least gives you some different ideas. It really all comes down to what you think your team needs to do. If you absolutely have to have something to use under Trick Room, then either stick with Empoleon or perhaps consider a more versatile water-type. If you think you can do without that sort of Pokemon, then definitely give Rotom-W at least a test run. Like I said, it appears that you've got enough Pokemon there to prevent Trick Room or still function well under Trick Room to do without a more dedicated Trick Room hijacker.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  3. jstinftw!

    jstinftw! hey trainer

    Oh, it might sound a bit complicated, but it's mostly just like making a diverse team. It's basically like building a team and just being able to do more than one thing with it. The focus is on the team building part, putting Pokemon together that work well together.

    Ninetales is, imo, the best option if you want Drought. If you can live without a Drought used, I think something else that just carries Sunny Day would suffice, so you could have something to hit hard either early game or late game. :)

    Hahah fair enough. I actually have been testing out Rotom, and I haven't really gotten into a situation where I needed Rotom either, so maybe I need to be looking at something else completely. But I do like the Ludicolo idea. I might try that out, since Ludicolo could also help me against Rain teams in the currently rare possiblity I see one, while also being able to fight off Sand teams. I would like another Ice user on my team, so that's not too bad of a suggestion. Thank you. :)
     
  4. zozo

    zozo SLIMED!

    I guess so. It kind of reminds me of one of the first teams I built for VGC, but even that was a bit more simple. I just wanted to be able to function well in other peoples weather or without weather altogether. Gliscor and Lickilicky were the two MVPs that emerged from that mix.
    It looks like my best bet would be to only have Sun available for when I absolutely need it. Maybe. Possibly. I still need to think about it some more, I guess. xD

    Glad I was able to help a bit! n_n
     
  5. Rhonder

    Rhonder Well-Known Member

    Heyyyy this club is exactly what I'm looking for right now :D So here goes my app:

    -Start with: Hi, I am (your serebii name) and I am/wish to become a competitive double battler!
    -Favorite VGC Pokémon and why
    -Favorite Pokémon
    -Why you like double battles
    -Any job you want to do (if you are trustworthy at your job your “power” in the clan will increase)

    Hi, I am Rhonder and I wish to become a competitive double battler. I've played about 2 years of competitive singles, participating in various Clans/Guilds here on Serebii but after watching this year's Worlds I've become interested in the Doubles format and wish to learn it~ The last VGC I attended was 2011 (that was also my first ever competitive team) and I lost out in the first round of the regionals using a sub par Trick Room team. Before that when I was really little I attended a different VGC in '06 in 6th grade. My team back then was even worse xD

    I don't really have a favorite VGC Pokemon yet since I have yet to do much VGC battling, though I guess for now it would be Abomasnow since the first team I'm going to try making is going to have hail. My favorite pokemon overall... that's harder. I'm rather fond of Breloom, Ampharos, Froslass and Crobat mostly, with a few others, but that's already 4. I decided I want to try double battling because it just seems... more versatile than single battling. I definitely like the aspect that through the power of team work a lot more pokemon are usable and effective. Can't wait to start trying out different stuff! As for jobs... for now I'm not going to take any. I know how to RNG and EV train but I'm relatively busy so I don't have time to do more than my own pokemon.

    So yeah, that's my story. Hope I'm accepted ;D
     
  6. The Master Chief

    The Master Chief A.K.A Tythaeus

    You will. Eventually.

    So i made a team for the shizz and giggles and found out liepard + thunderus-therian is a killer lead o_O I'm currently 7-0 with it. I'm gonna post a rmt of it soon once i straigten out evs on it.. Maybe. Idk
     
  7. jstinftw!

    jstinftw! hey trainer

    Yeah, dude. You're in! :) Make sure to follow the rules, and feel free to ask for any help should you feel the need for some idea or advice. That's what we're here for!

    Hahaha I've been playing around with Liepard as well. Liepard's actually a really good Pokemon for disruption. The things it can do are amazing!

    Speaking of my team, I've actually settled on a bulky Rotom-W set over Empoleon. Ludicolo's ok, but Rotom-W really nets me a nice pivot Pokemon, and its bulk is really appreciated. I've currently got two teams all set and in the testing phase, with a third team almost set as well. Then I can start breeding and EV training. I mean Super Training. xD. I'm really sad there isn't a Wi-Fi tournament in the works. It would be great to have something to use these teams in, since they're some of the best I've ever built. :D
     
  8. Rhonder

    Rhonder Well-Known Member

    Awesome!

    So for some initial questions for anyone, I've been working on making my 1st somewhat thought out doubles team, and after reading around Nugget Bridge some I decided to try out a Hail Room team. Before I get too involved in it, does that seem like a decent team type to start out learning competitive doubles or should I maybe go for something a little simpler? Also for simulator testing is there a decent server on PO where you can find a lot of matches or is PS more active? I never really use PS so I'm not sure. Been a while since I battled a lot on PO too though (but I still have it updated and installed and all that good stuff from my serebii clan days~ xD)
     
  9. jstinftw!

    jstinftw! hey trainer

    HailRoom is fine. Trick Room is a decent archetype to start with, since it's really simple to make EV Spreads for, and play around with, not to mention it kind of teaches you how other teams work without you needing to do something extremely complicated or of high caliber. I personally started out Competitive Pokemon in general with a Doubles Trick Room team, so I can definitely relate.

    I also ran HailRoom at the start of the 2012 season, and I honestly think it's the most anti-meta a team can really get while still playing conventional mons. I know you said that you checked out Nugget Bridge already, but just to be sure, I'll give you a link that I, ex-Trick Room player & ex-HailRoom player, have found very useful.

    For the Hail aspect, understanding Abomasnow is pretty important. Also understanding HailRoom and Hail in general as archetypes will also be very important. There's also this Hail team that had a Nidoqueen, a Pokemon I personally loved using in Hail, so I'm linking it too.

    Those are mostly so that you get an understanding of how the teams are built AND run at the same time.

    Now for the Trick Room aspect, I've found that straight, minus-Speed-Nature 252-HP/252-Attacking-Stat teams are very difficult teams to run well, and can be very frustrating to start off with. Although the team building is simple, it leads to some real short-comings. So I've compiled a list of some of my favorite Trick Room teams made by players much better than me so that you can get a good look at their teams, their strategies, their ideas, and even their experiences handling their respective Trick Room teams, so that you can get ideas and do's-and-dont's from them.

    HeraBoss (VGC '12|Trick Room)
    Glacial Palace (VGC '13|HailRoom)
    Top 18 Finish (VGC '13|HailRoom)
    Fullmetal Steelix (VGC '13|Trick Room)
    Punches (VGC '13|Trick Room)
    *Chronologically listed from oldest to newest going down. Parenthesis show what season the teams are from, and what type of Trick Room team they were, so that you can see whether their metagame calls are recent or outdated. Obviously, the more recent, the more up-to-date the information is.

    Trick Room is great in that it's pretty straightforward and still incredibly threatening. The metagame is very heavily impacted by Speed Tiers, and most Pokemon try to be as fast as they possibly can. Trick Room reverses this, taking away a chunk of their offensive pressure. You have to play smart though, as many of your opponents will simply try to wait your Trick Room out and make you waste your turns. Feint users will probably be really cool, as well as Spore uses in Amoonguss and Breloom, or even Imprison+Protect or even Taunt.
    Hail is great in that it disrupts your opponent's weather; Sand is nuked and Tyranitar takes normal damage from Special Attacks, Rain is nuked because the power boost and the more than likely Swift Swim abuser is curbstomped.
    It's a great archetype to try and get a feel for the metagame with, as it also teaches you, as a player, how to play conservatively, when to make big plays, and how to manage the field.

    As for Pokemon Online vs. Pokemon Showdown, definitely play on Showdown. There's an official Nugget Bridge Server, ensuring your battles are of quality. Pokemon Online is ok, and I actually suggest maybe playing around on both, but Showdown is probably the best.

    It's good to play with both because there will be differences on the simulators. I actually suggest building the team ASAP on your game cartridge as well, so you can get on Nintendo Wi-Fi to do Random Matchup battles. With so many players playing on so many different platforms, playing in different environments will really help with your testing, and assuring that your team is actually playable against everything, not just whatever is popular on one simulator. :)
     
  10. Rhonder

    Rhonder Well-Known Member

    Whoa, tons of useful links and advice, thanks! Yeah I definitely know what you mean about getting the team on the game asap for random match up battles. I actually had started building it prior to even testing at all (I knew I wanted Abomasnow and Reuniclus so I figured making them ahead of time wouldn't be a big deal) But I hopped on PS last night, which ended up being a good thing because I've already sorted through a few pokemon that don't really work well with my team. Welp, time to get down to some article reading/testing.
     
  11. jstinftw!

    jstinftw! hey trainer

    Last edited: Aug 27, 2013
  12. philzone

    philzone Ready for trumpets

  13. old man

    old man On Guard!!!

    Hey thanks for the links in the hail teams. I've been using one on the battle subway that I've needed some ideas about before going to the gbu with it. Also can someone please link me to an easy RNG vid. Gotta learn it
     
  14. Shreyas

    Shreyas Well-Known Member

    Hey guys! So, I am working on this team, and it seems to be doing really well so far. I'd really like some help and advice on it (including getting the Pokemon LOL). So far, I've had pretty strong results. Losses are rare, and most of my losses are 2-0 or 1-0, which shows that my team is capable of pretty awesome stuff! But, I feel like I'm really weak to volcarona. I've added in a Heatran to check it, but to be honest, I really hate using Heatran to check Volcarona. True, it can resist it's attacks and in SINGLES it can roar it out. But, this is VGCs, so Heatran does NOTHING to Volcarona after some quiver dances. Worst of all, people like to run bulky ones, so what can I add in that can kill Volcarona after it has set up a few quiver dances. Also, I'd want the Pokemon to be able to throw out strong fire attacks that can check Scizor and other steel types. I've considered Gyarados, but I've already got Rotom-W and Ludicolo for some water type, so I'm hesitant to add in another water type in there. Advice? .-.
     
  15. philzone

    philzone Ready for trumpets

    Well, there is scarf salamence. Use stone edge, draco meteor, fire blast, hydro pump/hp flying. It can get the job done, and gives intimidate support, and is resistant to volc's STABs
     
  16. jstinftw!

    jstinftw! hey trainer

    To be honest, we'd probably need to see the rest of the team, even if it's just listing the team members and not the actual sets, to really know what can fit on your team to help against Volcarona. Cos, in theory, you've listed one of the best Volcarona counters in Gyarados.

    To expound a bit on Gyarados, even if you have an abundance of Water on your team, that's not a particular problem.
    A.) They do not share a weakness.
    B.) They do not exactly have similar coverage. Well, Ludicolo and Rotom do, but they play differently, so that's different.

    So even if you add Gyarados, you're not really harming your team, per se. It can even let you opt out of running Hydro Pump or Surf/Scald/Hydro Pump on either/both Rotom-W and Ludicolo. :)
     
  17. zozo

    zozo SLIMED!


    Hmm.... not so much advice, as kind of a half-baked suggestion, but why not use something like Snatch and just prevent the thing from boosting at all? If it's specifically Quiver Dance Volcarona you fear, Snatch would be a way of shutting it down pretty effectively. Yes, it's gimmicky, but if you've narrowed down your weaknesses to such a fine degree, it might be useful. Not only are you making Volcarona waste a turn, but you're boosting your own stats. And not only are you boosting your own stats, but you're boosting them in a way that dancing Volcarona particularly fears: suddenly, your 'mon is faster and less vulnerable to special attacks.
    Just some food for thought, I guess.
     
  18. Shreyas

    Shreyas Well-Known Member

    Ok, I guess I'll just go ahead and post my team~
    Descriptions aren't rmt level, so bare with me.
    [spoil]Latias @ Haban Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 HP / 196 Spd / 60 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Recover
    - Reflect Type
    - Icy Wind
    196 spd = outspeeds chomp
    Tany ness + Haban Berry lets me take a Dragon Gem Draco Meteor from timid Latios giving me time to reflect type a steel Pokemon.
    Icy Wind to throw in some speed control~

    Metagross @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Clear Body
    Level: 50
    EVs: 4 Spd / 252 Atk / 252 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Meteor Mash
    - Bullet Punch
    - Protect
    Lum berry > all other items since it allows me to take on status problem much better (seriously, why do people run WoWs and Spores everywhere? -_-)
    Main check against Breloom/Amoonguss. Trick Room setter uppers can't do much to Gross, and he's relatively tanky

    Heatran @ Chople Berry
    Trait: Flash Fire
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
    Calm Nature
    - Earth Power
    - Heat Wave
    - Protect
    - Substitute
    tbh, there is no thought here AT ALL. MAx'd out spD and HP cause I couldn't think of a better EV spread.
    Chople berry to take on Hitmontops and get off a sub
    Sub/Protect = wasted turns for my opponent

    Gliscor @ Flying Gem
    Trait: Hyper Cutter
    EVs: 252 Atk / 104 HP / 152 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Acrobatics
    - Tailwind
    - Protect
    Replaced Landorus-T from earlier. I really love this guy, btw. Thanks to whoever suggested it earlier!
    EVs: after icy wind allows me to outspeed Base 130s
    Max'd out attack for damage dealing potential.

    Rotom-Wash @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hydro Pump
    - Protect
    WoW to stop physical attackers
    nothing special about EVs or the other moves, really.
    Mainly here to shut down Scizor, widdle down Cress, and bulky Thundurus
    Used to run Light Screen, and now it's protect

    Ludicolo @ Leftovers
    Trait: Rain Dish
    Level: 50
    EVs: 252 HP / 100 SDef / 20 Spd / 132 Def / 4 SAtk
    Calm Nature
    - Leech Seed
    - Giga Drain
    - Scald
    - Fake Out
    Main check to rain
    provides fake out support
    Leech seed to widdle down opposing tanks
    Scalds burn = win
    Leftovers cancels our weather
    EVs let me outspeed 12 ev tops, take Dragon Gem Draco from Hydreigon, Fight Gem CC from top
    [/spoil]

    Alright, so I still need some options for Volcarona. I'll definitely see if Gyarados can function well in my team in place of Heatran. Yeah, I thought nothing can beat Gyarados for my team. It's the perfect fit I guess~
     
  19. jstinftw!

    jstinftw! hey trainer

    With 3 Water resists, you could possibly consider running your own QD Volcarona with HP Rock to match any QD Volcarona you may encounter.

    Also, a Choice Scarf Tyranitar could do the trick. Or, if you want, you could allow yourself a Trick Room mode/counter by running a standard Tyranitar set, Rhyperior with Solid Rock, or even a Stone Edge Scrafty.

    On the other hand, if you run Stone Edge Scrafty, that opens up Ludicolo, since you can opt Fake Out as well, removing the need for Ludicolo, and letting you run something else. :)
     
  20. drizzleboy12

    drizzleboy12 2nd VGC MA regional

    I think cresselia could work over latias if you wanna good dragon counter do to the fact that 0 SpA dragon pulse 2KOs any dragon while cresselia does the same thing exept without having the additional weakness to dragons.

    the EVs I would run is 252 HP 84 SpA 60 Def 112 SpD Modest nature/quiet

    what the EVs let u live:
    252 SpA Dragon Gem Latios Helping Hand Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Cresselia: 196-232 (86.34 - 102.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Dark Gem Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Cresselia: 186-222 (81.93 - 97.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
    252+ SpA Hydreigon Helping Hand Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Cresselia: 162-192 (71.36 - 84.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Helping Hand Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Cresselia in rain: 195-230 (85.9 - 101.32%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

    the Attack EVs do:

    84+ SpA Expert Belt Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 94-110 (55.95 - 65.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    84+ SpA Expert Belt Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 79-94 (50.64 - 60.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    84+ SpA Expert Belt Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 202-240 (118.12 - 140.35%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    84+ SpA Expert Belt Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 192-230 (104.34 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    84+ SpA Expert Belt Cresselia Psyshock vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 110-132 (53.14 - 63.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    84+ SpA Expert Belt Cresselia Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 180 Def Amoonguss: 115-137 (52.03 - 61.99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    84+ SpA Expert Belt Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 101-120 (65.16 - 77.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    84+ SpA Expert Belt Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 196 HP / 204+ SpD Thundurus: 74-89 (41.34 - 49.72%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    The moves: Psyshock, ice beam, skill swap/sunny day, trick room/sunny day

    Heatran I suggest running 252 HP 252 SpA 4 SpD with a modest nature but the EVs you have work as well

    Rotom-W I suggest running the EVs 236 HP 180 SpD 12 Def 76 SpA 4 Spd calm nature

    The EVs let you live 252 SpA Dragon Gem Latios Draco Meteor vs. 236 HP / 180+ SpD Rotom-W: 130-154 (83.87 - 99.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    the rest of the EVs are dumped into SpA Def and spd

    gyrados could work but adding a third water stab won't be useful for cover weaknesses imo.

    Metagross I would run 252 HP 252 Atk 4 SpD but your spread works I just prefer bulky metagross(but still fast metagross is great)
     
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