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Come Forth, Lycanroc with the Crimson Look!! (970)

Pokegirl Fan~

Golden Queen
Good grief, did XY and XYZ steal your wallet, burn down your house and take your lollipop?

It had the worst writing, overhyped things, overglorified the main character, and treated the female lead like crap
 

Rohanator

Well-Known Member
Please don't tell me you want another 'Ash gets upset over a loss' arc in SM, I thought XY established perfectly that Ash focused too much on winning against Alain, and that winning battles is not the reason he became a Trainer in the first place.
Yeah no, lol. Just some nice and classic drive for revenge (can be friendly revenge mind you).

Ash didn't need to lose this battle. It was clear who the dominant trainer was, Ash might as well have lost the battle, we didn't need to see Rockruff faint to know Lycanroc would have crushed it.
That's not the point, I don't care whether Ash literally lost the battle or if simply seeing Lycanroc's power was enough to set him off, what I want is a clear narrative indication that Ash is upset over being weaker than another trainer, doesn't matter how it works in universe, I'm talking about AUTHORIAL INTENT.

Look there's no point in arguing about this because we clearly want different things, you're fine with Ash being the way he is right now so you'll say anything to defend this battle, nothing wrong feeling that way. I however want some real drama off of him so I'm going to call this bad and a wasted opportunity, that's just me.
 

PokemonKnight

#1 Sylveon Fan
It had the worst writing, overhyped things, overglorified the main character, and treated the female lead like crap

Well, I was referring to how angry that poster was, not the flaws of XY and XYZ.

I do agree that the hype got out of hand especially when they rarely delivered to the clickbait titles.
 
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Pokegirl Fan~

Golden Queen
Well, I was referring how angry that poster was, not the flaws of XY and XYZ.

I do agree that the hype got out of hand especially when they rarely delivered to the clickbait titles.

Yeah it got pretty old fast, and not to mention annoying whenever they did that lol
 

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
Rockruff seemed pretty pumped up by Lycanroc, with it play fighting with Litten and Rowlet, before they even battled or knew it was really gonna battle. With them already showing how excited Rockruff was after watching Lycanroc, he didn't need a huge loss for that to happen. Also Lycanroc and Pikachu being capture mid battle allowed Rockruff to help save them, whereas if it had been at the end of the battle, Rockruff obviously couldn't have helped save them. The respect dynamic between Rockruff and Lycanroc would not have been achieved then. I like seeing thedynamics between the pokemon themselves as rivals, not just the trainers, and this helped.

I agree. As I said in one of my earlier posts, this was as much a Rockruff focus episode as it was Gladion's introduction episode. Rockruff was pumped up just by the sight of Midnight Lycanroc battling; it didn't need to lose against its evolution in order to be inspired. Additionally, as you pointed out, Lycanroc and Pikachu being captured mid-battle allowed Rockruff to save them (it started running after Team Rocket on its own volition, without instruction from Ash), which may be one reason why Gladion complimented Rockruff and why Lycanroc patted Rockruff on the head. It's nice to see an evolved Pokémon respect its pre-evolved form. (It's like the opposite of all the Pikachu vs. Raichu rivalries we see.)
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I think a key reason many wanted just a loss because a loss is a very humanising experience for a character, especially the protagonist. It shows they can be sent to the bottom beaten down and robbed of their beloved plot armour. It also gives further substance to them developing and improving.

Having Team Rocket or someone interrupt things before they suffer proper defeat feels like protecting them, negating this moment of humiliation and distracting everything onto another weaker opponent they can look like the winner against again. It's a sort of 'cut the damn umbilical cord' complaint.

Remember how Serena NEVER lost officially, or even got in many battles long or intense enough for her team to take much damage. Team Rocket or some other plot device always interrupted so her opponent could never defeat her or even get in much retaliation after she got a start on them. It had to end with her on top, even when she clearly was outmatched. It's off because though blatantly novice, she didn't feel fallible or accomplished. The plot bent things so she could always be in control and come out clean, which makes a protagonist much harder to sympathise with.

Remember, say the odd times Bugs Bunny or Jerry 'lost' a cartoon? Would they really have the same effect if something interrupted last minute to give them a mini victory and soften the blow dramatically?

So yeah, a proper loss can to some degree be meaningful (though in fairness Ash did get creamed by Team Rocket themselves earlier).
 
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Janovy

Banned
That's not the point, I don't care whether Ash literally lost the battle or if simply seeing Lycanroc's power was enough to set him off, what I want is a clear narrative indication that Ash is upset over being weaker than another trainer, doesn't matter how it works in universe, I'm talking about AUTHORIAL INTENT.
As I already said, XY already dealt with this.

We had an entire arc dedicated to Ash realizing he doesn't need to get upset about losing when he didn't become a Trainer because he cared about winning, but because he cared about Pokemon.

Your words clearly state you want Ash to feel bad about losing, which would be the complete opposite of Ash's development in XY about his attitude towards losing. It would be essentially destroying whatever small character development he had in XY.

Ash does not need to feel upset following his development in XY. This is a natural way for him to respond to things, if we are treating SM as a continuation of XY.
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
This is getting ridiculous, Janovy and Pokegirl Fan~.

Idk why exactly you feel the need to bring up XY in EVERY SINGLE THREAD even when the thread has nothing to do about the damn saga and then complain about people who don't like this by saying they are just XY fanboys who don't accept criticism and that all XY fanboys are stupid, even though they were mostly complaining about the off topic, pointless discussion and not about your arguments regarding how much XY sucks.
 

Rohanator

Well-Known Member
As I already said, XY already dealt with this.

We had an entire arc dedicated to Ash realizing he doesn't need to get upset about losing when he didn't become a Trainer because he cared about winning, but because he cared about Pokemon.

Your words clearly state you want Ash to feel bad about losing, which would be the complete opposite of Ash's development in XY about his attitude towards losing. It would be essentially destroying whatever small character development he had in XY.

Ash does not need to feel upset following his development in XY. This is a natural way for him to respond to things, if we are treating SM as a continuation of XY.
You're greatly misinterpreted and oversimplified the actual message of that arc. The issue Ash had in the Ash Greninja arc was that he was putting too much blame on himself for his losses, he felt like he, as the trainer, was 100% responsible for everything, and in the end remembered that battles are fought together with Pokemon, that he didn't need to carry all the burdens for his friends when his friends can support him as well. If you need proof we can discuss that elsewhere but if you just rewatch XY&Z episodes 27 and 28 it should be clear from the dialogue (and it was triggered by his inability to make Greninja transform in the Shota battle).

He can absolutely still feel upset over losing if him and his Pokemon fail to deliver their full potential, which would be a natural reaction in a fight where they get demolished. What you're suggesting is that he'd LITERALLY not feel anything negative over losses ever again, do you realize how boring that would be? Even if the message of XY WAS simply "don't feel upset" then yeah I'd definitely want that to get overwritten. I don't need "depression arcs", I just want some humanity.
 

Janovy

Banned
You're greatly misinterpreted and oversimplified the actual message of that arc. The issue Ash had in the Ash Greninja arc was that he was putting too much blame on himself for his losses, he felt like he, as the trainer, was 100% responsible for everything, and in the end remembered that battles are fought together with Pokemon, that he didn't need to carry all the burdens for his friends when his friends can support him as well. If you need proof we can discuss that elsewhere but if you just rewatch XY&Z episodes 27 and 28 it should be clear from the dialogue (and it was triggered by his inability to make Greninja transform in the Shota battle).
Then I must remember it incorrectly, I will have to check again. I'm pretty sure the message was different.

He can absolutely still feel upset over losing if him and his Pokemon fail to deliver their full potential, which would be a natural reaction in a fight where they get demolished. What you're suggesting is that he'd LITERALLY not feel anything negative over losses ever again, do you realize how boring that would be? Even if the message of XY WAS simply "don't feel upset" then yeah I'd definitely want that to get overwritten. I don't need "depression arcs", I just want some humanity.
Rockruff gave it his all, the battle had no proper conclusion, and thus, Ash had no reason to feel upset about anything.

Humanity is good, but forced emotions are just bad. Making Ash feel upset would have felt out of character, there were no stakes in this battle, it was just light-hearted fun.
 

lemoncatpower

Cynical optimist
I think the biggest part is that a lot of us were really excited for Gladion and his pokemon. We got what we wanted and a lot of us really liked what we saw. To say that it should have been changed to be more meaningful, when it wouldn't have been more meaningful to Ash whatsoever, is I guess, annoying.

Not to mention all criticism of this episode has centered around TRio interrupting the battle and I haven't been able to note another reason why anyone disliked this episode but they keep shitting on it anyways. So expect people to **** back lol.
 

Rohanator

Well-Known Member
Rockruff gave it his all, the battle had no proper conclusion, and thus, Ash had no reason to feel upset about anything.

Humanity is good, but forced emotions are just bad. Making Ash feel upset would have felt out of character, there were no stakes in this battle, it was just light-hearted fun.
Why should Ash's reaction to the battle be the only thing that's up for a change? MAKE the battle the kind that would get that reaction out of him. Change the whole episode from the start of the battle onwards.

But again that's just me, that's what I would've wanted. And I clearly won't get it from Sun and Moon, so yeah, alas (didn't get it from XY either mind you, from a rival stand point anyway. The more time passes the more thirsty I get and the more disappointed I am at missed opportunities).
 
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PokemonKnight

#1 Sylveon Fan
Yeah it got pretty old fast, and not to mention annoying whenever they did that lol

No doubt about that.

Especially when there would be a backlash (understandable) and the writers would, then, issue excuses. Like how the dance episode was really about Sylveon, despite the blatant clickbait, Amourshipping title. It hurt my enjoyment of XY and XYZ.
 

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
I think a key reason many wanted just a loss because a loss is a very humanising experience for a character, especially the protagonist. It shows they can be sent to the bottom beaten down and robbed of their beloved plot armour. It also gives further substance to them developing and improving.

Having Team Rocket or someone interrupt things before they suffer proper defeat feels like protecting them, negating this moment of humiliation and distracting everything onto another weaker opponent they can look like the winner against again. It's a sort of 'cut the damn umbilical cord' complaint.

While a loss is a very humanizing experience, I'm not sure a loss was necessary here. I've said this before, but I don't think this episode was just about Gladion's introduction or the battle between him and Ash. I think this episode was also about Rockruff and how it was inspired by Gladion's Midnight Lycanroc. Not only that, but this set up a seemingly friendly rivalry between Rockruff and Lycanroc--a rivalry that may not become heated until Rockruff evolves and/or Ash gets the Rockium-Z (since, at the moment, Rockruff doesn't really stand a chance against Lycanroc and Continental Crush).

I still think Team Rocket's interruption was pointless and stupid and totally not necessary (I would have much preferred Team Skull interrupting the battle, as they had a personal vendetta against Gladion), but their interruption gave Rockruff--who, keep in mind, was pretty beaten up from the battle already--another chance to shine.

Also, Gladion and Ash both said they would battle the next time they met. This is not the last we will see of Gladion, and I think their next battle will be a little more personal.

Not to mention all criticism of this episode has centered around TRio interrupting the battle and I haven't been able to note another reason why anyone disliked this episode but they keep shitting on it anyways. So expect people to **** back lol.

Team Rocket's interruption is my only problem with this episode. Otherwise, I think this episode was really good. I expected an introduction to Gladion, his reunion with Lillie, and a show of his and his Lycanroc's power, and we got all those. I hoped for, but didn't expect, a brief look into Gladion's backstory, so I was pleased that we got that, too.
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
Team Rocket's interruption is my only problem with this episode. Otherwise, I think this episode was really good. I expected an introduction to Gladion, his reunion with Lillie, and a show of his and his Lycanroc's power, and we got all those. I hoped for, but didn't expect, a brief look into Gladion's backstory, so I was pleased that we got that, too.

I wouldn't even mind the interruption if the battle weren't so short and if the episode didn't waste so much time on rockruff playing around.

One thing i've to praise them for though: Gladion already has more interactions with Lillie than he had in the game. It seems like they'll actually take the time to develop their sibling relationship.
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Golden Queen
I wouldn't even mind the interruption if the battle weren't so short and if the episode didn't waste so much time on rockruff playing around.

One thing i've to praise them for though: Gladion already has more interactions with Lillie than he had in the game. It seems like they'll actually take the time to develop their sibling relationship.

They seem to be interested in the relationship of families in this series in general, which is nice. I guess sometime later on we'll see Gladion and Lillie interact more.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
The problem isn't the interrupted battle itself; any other series, where we're getting battles every few episodes, it would be completely okay in a sense (though not without its problems). The issue is that we haven't had a proper battle for 17 episodes now, and it'll take longer before we do. That's ~12% of the series, assuming everything is the same as the last few series. For a series based on a video game whose core mechanic is battling, and whose past series all focused on battle (just count the number we usually have by this point compared to what we've had this series) that's not a good thing.

Then, when we finally have the promise of a battle...it's interrupted. Heck, I wouldn't even call it a battle! It was two moves, more or less! On top of it, it hardly establishes Gladion's strength relative to Ash when his Z-Move was used on TRio, of all people. There really isn't anything to excuse the lack of the backbone of the series. It would have been better had they just not begun the battle at all or at least completed a decent round before the interruption. But as it stands, it's showing, yet again, a symptom of the larger problem the anime is now facing and needs to correct before it's too late.
 

Pokemon Fan

Knuckle Trainer
The problem isn't the interrupted battle itself; any other series, where we're getting battles every few episodes, it would be completely okay in a sense (though not without its problems). The issue is that we haven't had a proper battle for 17 episodes now,
I guess you're not counting things like the battle against Totem Raticate or the rematch with Tapu Koko? I will agree there has been a lack of true, full length, trainer battles, but those have always been fairly few and far between.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
I guess you're not counting things like the battle against Totem Raticate or the rematch with Tapu Koko? I will agree there has been a lack of true, full length, trainer battles, but those have always been fairly few and far between.

The reason I count neither is that Tapu Koko didn't really feel like a complete battle since it just sort of...ended. I mean, yeah, Pikachu got knocked off the cliff and all, but they COULD have continued from there. It was, like the Hariyama battle, a "show me your Z-Move" thing. As for Totem Raticate, I can't count it because...Jessie gave no commands. It was mostly just Mimikyu beating the tar out of it. They don't have the same feel as trainer to trainer battles.
 
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