Community POTW #002

[Serebii]

This week we're starting with the Fire-type starter of the games

Incineroar is the Fire-type starter and with its Dark-type, is capable of more than we thought it would

http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-sm/727.shtml

Go nuts

 

[StreetFlare]

Ah, Inciniroar. Of the three starters, the Fire/Dark wrestler has passable health and defenses with a 95/90/90 spread; but it's standout stat is clearly that base 115 Attack. With it's unreleased hidden ability of Intimidate, Inciniroar might just make a workable Assault Vest Pokemon, among other sets.

FROM OUTTA NOWHERE
Adamant nature
EVs: 252 HP; 252 Att, 4 Def
Item: Assault Vest
Nature: Blaze/Intimidate
-Flare Blitz
-Darkest Lariet
-Leech Life/Cross Chop
-Cross Chop/Earthquake/Fake Out/Outrage/U-Turn

OK, so the set is fairly basic. Coverage is nothing fancy in comparison to Emboar, though Inciniroar does get access to the newly-buffed Leech Life for regen. If Intimidate was released; you would obviously run that in place of Blaze. Flare Blitz and Darkest Lariet are both fairly self-explanatory; Flare Blitz being your most powerful Fire-type STAB, while Darkest Lariet giving Inciniroar a way around Defense-boosting sets. After that, filler comes down to personal taste. The newly-buffed Leech Life is Inciniroar's closest answer to Drain Punch, and provides a fair hit against Psychics and other Dark types, though the coverage outside of those two is nothing to write home about. Cross Chop is, for a set like this, superior to Close Combat due to the lack of defense drops. Not that Inciniroar gets Close Combat. EQ is EQ, no explanation needed; though I would not suggest running it and Cross Chop together. Fake Out is standard opening priority fare; while Outrage is a one-shot gimmick; something to be saved as an Other Option for players who like to live dangerously. U-Turn gives it some level of pivot, though that function is limited by Inciniroar's rather low speed. Again, not a move to run with Leech Life.

Now, the downsides of this are simple - Inciniroar can't really do too much to set-up Fairies, and even with Darkest Lariet it loses to defense-boosted Water types. Due to that really unfortunate speed tier of 60; it's not going to really be outspeeding the major threats to it. Basically, just use it smartly. It's not a tank. Inciniroar is more of a bruiser, a Pokemon that can take a hit and dish one out in return.

 

[HeatEdgeSword]

I will admit it, I don't like its design all that much. But that isn't something that bothers me all that much.

Though I do worry about something else related to Inciniroar.

Anyways, This is the set for doubles.

LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING
EV: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
Nature: Adamant
Item: Sitrus Berry
Ability: Blaze
- Protect
- Fake Out
- Flare Blitz
- Darkest Lariat

Protect is very crucial in Doubles. Fake Out is a priority move that will make the opponent flinch. Flare Blitz is its strongest move. While the effect of Darkest Lariat isn't all that great here as most opponents barely bother to boost their Pokemon's Defense stat, it is its strongest Dark-type move so far.

Blaze is used on it instead of Intimidate as its hidden ability isn't released yet.

 

[Mestorn]

It has been awhile since we have had Fire type that could pull off a defensive roll. That last one was Heatran, and that was more due to it's Steel type + Flash Fire. While Incineroar is not in the same league as Heatran (and until Intimidate is released, not even in the same league as Arcanine), it still pulls of the Defensive Fire type fairly well. The main difference between Incineroar and Arcanine (aside from access to Flash Fire) is Incineroar's ability to use Assault Vest. Arcanine needs Morning Sun to pull a defensive set off, while Incineroar goes the route of Conkeldurr and has built in recovery with Leech Life (never thought I would be saying that). Additionally, it Dark sub-typing suits Incineroar well, allowing it to eat Sucker Punches, Pursuits and Knock Offs (ok, the loss of item hurts, a lot) like a champ. Being a physically offensive Fire type has its perks as well, as being unable to be burned is a great boon for any Physical Attacker.

Other Options
Will o Wisp While you have to forgo Assault Vest, this is a great way of shutting down opposing Physical Sweepers.
Toxic Bulky Water pokémon suck. Make it painful for them to stay in. Again, not the best option with due to losing Assault Vest.
U-Turn A little unorthodox on Incineroar, but its slow speed often means whatever your switch in will be unscathed.
Taunt Stop Opponents using Incineroar as setup bait.
Roar Bye Incineroar Counter. Hello Entry Hazard Damage.

Favored Partners
Incineroar (un)surprisingly pivots well with Grass-Ghost types, with the likes of Decidueye, Trevenaunt and Dhelmise resisting or are outright Immune to Incineroar's weaknesses and usually able to take care of any opposing Ground, Rock and Water types (Fighting is a little more shaky). Incineroar also appreciates anti-Entry hazard support like most pokémon, as losing a 1/4 of your health on the switch in or being badly poisoned ruins Incineroar's durability. Water Flying types also works well with Incineroar, eating Water, Ground and Fighting attacks like nobody's business. Incineroar also works as a great Steel type checker -though the weakness to Earthquake is unfortunate - it has the tools to wreck any Steel Pokémon that shows its face, so pokémon that are walled out by Steel types greatly benefit from Incineroar. Incineroar counters most Dark types fairly well, though the nature of Pursuit means that Incineroar may not be able to help every time. Water Fairy types are the bane to Incineroar, always able to wall it out barring Will o Wisp (Azumarill) or Toxic/Earthquake (Primarina) (Tapu Fini can always come in safely). Grass, Electric and Poison types are the best answers to these threats. Roserade, Victreebell are the only available Grass-Poison types, while Toxicpex, and Tentacruel have a good chance of walling offending pokémon out.

Incineroar is a pokémon that does its job well and can act as a great pivot for most teams. However, its common weaknesses, and slow speed limits what it can do. It will be interesting to see how far Incineroar goes in the future.

 

[zecapau]

Please, someone name a set as "AND HIS NAME IS JOHN CENEROAR!!!".

 

[generic villager #5]

I have some mixed feelings about Incineroar. It has a lot of positive points but a few negative ones that unfortunately are big enough to counterbalance the positives.

Pros:
- Amazing movepool, with spectacular coverage options
- A few decent support moves, such as Roar, Will-o-Wisp, Taunt, and Substitute
- Gets both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, a rare combination
- The Fire/Dark typing sports a passable bank of resistances and smooths out Dark's weaknesses to Bug and Fairy
- Respectable bulk, paired with a strong Attack stat
- Access to recovery via Leech Life

Cons:
- Even with its remarkable movepool it struggles to hit bulky Fairy- and Water-types hard enough
- Access to Swords Dance and Nasty Plot is pointless on a poke with low Speed and no priority options, plus a poor overall ability with special attacks
- Incineroar's weaknesses are all to fairly common attacking types
- 95/90/90 bulk is less impressive when you need Flare Blitz for STAB and your only recovery outside of Leftovers is non-STAB Leech Life.
- Being weak to Stealth Rocks can ruin its bulk
- Until Intimidate is available, your set options are severely limited.

For now, I'd suggest a bulky attacker set for Incineroar utilizing its wide movepool to hit as many things as hard as possible. Between Fire, Dark, Dragon, and Ground very few enemies can handle its coverage easily, and Darkest Lariat will ignore Defense boosts, such as from Bulk Up users. Speaking of which, a Bulk Up set with Leftovers might also work for the time being, although without Intimidate I question whether it would be effective enough to be more than an OO.

 

[Neosonic97]

Guess I'll be posting a stat analysis then.

HP- Base 95: Average. One of the two main selling points of Incineroar over the other two Alolan Starters is that, in terms of bulk, it is by far the best of the three overall, having higher base HP than the other two, making it actually pretty bulky, and making its poor speed not as big an issue.
Attack- Base 115: Good. Surpisingly not one of Incineroar's selling points over the other two Alolan starters, but a welcome notion nonetheless. Incineroar's physical attack is quite high, and it has no shortage of physical moves to make use of this. Darkest Lariat, Cross Chop, Outrage, Flare Blitz, Leech Life, Earthquake and the list goes on. It can also boost with Bulk Up, which, as you can guess, makes Incineroar hit rather hard.
Defence- Base 90: Average. The OTHER main selling point over the other two Alolan starters. Combined with Intimidate (When it gets released) and access to Bulk Up, Incineroar can pretty effectively foil physical attackers, which are the banes of the other two Starters' existences.
Special Attack- Base 80: Poor. This WOULD be a problem for Incineroar, but two reasons it's not. A: Incineroar's Physical movepool is stellar anyway and its base attack compliments this, completely removing any reason to USE a special set, and B: Incineroar's Special Movepool SUCKS. Like Decidueye, it's only Dual STABs and Hidden Power, and UNLIKE Decidueye, Incineroar does not get Nasty Plot.
Special Defence- Base 90: Average. This is the main area where Incineroar falls behind the other two Alolan Starters: Both Primarina and Decidueye, who both have higher base Special Defense. In Decidueye's case though, the difference isn't MASSIVE, and the added HP and physical defence more than makes up for it.
Speed- Base 60: Dead 'Mon's Land. Like its Alolan Starter Bretheren, Incineroar completely falls flat on its face when it comes to base Speed. Unlike the other two, however, it doesn't hit Incineroar quite as badly, as Incineroar has decent bulk on all sides of the spectrum, so it's a lot tougher to take Incineroar down before it can attack, unlike Decidueye and Primarina, who fall to a single well placed physical hit.

 

[generic villager #5]

UNLIKE Decidueye, Incineroar does not get Nasty Plot.

It does, through egg moves, but I agree that there's still not much point to it at the end of the day.

 

[Sceptile Leaf Blade]

Would Flame Charge be an interesting option as a setup move? With a Jolly Nature and max investment it reaches 360 Speed after a single Flame Charge, which outruns most stuff without scarf.

 

[Karxrida]

Fast Scarfers are likely to be a thing again thanks to Tapu Lele, the Talonflame nerf, and the T-Wave nerf. I wouldn't use it.

It's a shame that Intimidate isn't available and Inciniroar has an SR weakness, because it's bulkier than Lando-T and would would make for an interesting pivot. The only viable set I see for it is a generic LO Attacker or Band or something else offensive.

 

[Aduro]

Would Flame Charge be an interesting option as a setup move? With a Jolly Nature and max investment it reaches 360 Speed after a single Flame Charge, which outruns most stuff without scarf.

I wouldn't recommend it TBH. Its barely going to do any damage with a jolly flame charge. and even at +1 speed incineroar is outsped by unboosted base 115 and higher pokemon. 10% Zygarde, Floatzel, starmie, salazzle, etc. and its not that powerful offensively unless it gets off a swords dance or nasty plot. So its unlikely to get the speed it needs to sweep and have time to set up offensive pressure.

Besides, even an incineroar could get to +1 speed and deal damage, a floatzel, dugtrio, hawlucha or a 10%zygarde could easily show up to ruin its day. (BTW its gotta suck for whoever has to come up with checks and counters before we get proper Smogon tiers). Incineroar's main use will probably be as a revenge killer rather than a setup sweeper though. Or maybe a trick room supported attack in doubles. It does have a decent strength fake out after all.

 

[gars129]

I also see this guy as a bulky choice band pivot, or as a niche defensive mon, in ocassional OU use once intimidate is released. I wonder if Leech Life will catch on, its a good recovery move but meh coverage, so its mainly just to unreliably recover (at least he's strong without investment). U-Turn and Cross Chop/EQ are so much better, on offensive sets. Life Orb, while far from bad, seems like a bit of a waste on something with sweet bulk.

I wonder how will he fair compared to Entei and Arcanine in UU once he gets intimidate? He has a nice shot. Or will he be RU?

I really like this entire line, he left a great impression on me when battling it in the games (one battle in particular). Hes also a defensive fire type starter, which i wasnt sure Gamefreak could do at least kinda succesfull (Emboar isnt defensive BTW).

Without intimidate he's underwhelming tho.

 

[gars129]

I wouldn't recommend it TBH. Its barely going to do any damage with a jolly flame charge. and even at +1 speed incineroar is outsped by unboosted base 115 and higher pokemon. 10% Zygarde, Floatzel, starmie, salazzle, etc. and its not that powerful offensively unless it gets off a swords dance or nasty plot. So its unlikely to get the speed it needs to sweep and have time to set up offensive pressure.

Besides, even an incineroar could get to +1 speed and deal damage, a floatzel, dugtrio, hawlucha or a 10%zygarde could easily show up to ruin its day. (BTW its gotta suck for whoever has to come up with checks and counters before we get proper Smogon tiers). Incineroar's main use will probably be as a revenge killer rather than a setup sweeper though. Or maybe a trick room supported attack in doubles. It does have a decent strength fake out after all.

Also, not even the great Heatran, with great bulk, huge offense, and ability to take priority, uses Flame Charge. I can't recall a single good flame charge fire type in higher tiers, if it had +2 it would be better, on Heatran, but maybe Incineroar would have a shot. Maybe in UU or RU the stars will collide, but its unlikely with that meh speed tier.

 

[Aduro]

Also, not even the great Heatran, with great bulk, huge offense, and ability to take priority, uses Flame Charge. I can't recall a single good flame charge fire type in higher tiers, if it had +2 it would be better, on Heatran, but maybe Incineroar would have a shot. Maybe in UU or RU the stars will collide, but its unlikely with that meh speed tier.

I've seen flareons use flame charge pretty well in PU, but they have that insane wallbreaking guts boosted flare blitz and facade so they don't need to set up. I think Incenroar is better in doubles, its main edges will be intimidate and a strong fake out. Even leech life isn't much use to it since its almost completely redundant coverage for a fire-dark type.

 

[StreetFlare]

Literally; Leech Life is ONLY an option on an Assault Vest set for sustain; it's just totally redundant otherwise. Fire and Dark hit pretty much everything Bug does for SE damage; so anything that Leech Life is gonna hurt, Darkest Lariet or Flare Blitz is gonna hurt a lot more. If I was gonna suggest an offensive set; you've got far better coverage options than Leech Life - Cross Chop; EQ... even Outrage.

I'm not quite so convinced about Inciniroar in Doubles pre-Intimidate release; personally. Granted, in Doubles it could be running with Tailwind support or another form of speed control from it's partner. But; let's be real. I would love to run Inciniroar in doubles. But; while having Intimidate is good... being an intimidate target is not. Darkest Lariet only ignores Defense modifiers, not negative Attack modifiers on Inciniroar itself. Similarly; Inciniroar might be able to threaten out some Pokemon, and have a nice strong Fake Out, but after that it is almost entirely reliant on speed control. From what I've seen of the VGC meta; it's tending towards a mixture of Tapus and Rain teams; with a recent team composition survey for VGC on Showdown showing that Pelliper (!) was the tenth most played Pokemon in the top fifty teams. PELLIPER. Trick Room is also popular again.

In short, the current meta isn't exactly favorable to Inciniroar, and considering in Doubles you either want to be fast or ultra slow for Trick Room. Inciniroar is in no-man's land for that. Still, with the lack of Heatran for defensive Fire; or Houndoom for Fire/Dark offense, Inciniroar might be able to carve out a niche.

 

[acekage]

Evoilite Set: Duck and Weave
Torracat
Nature: Any that doesn't negatively impact defense if Overheat, Adamant/Careful nature if Protect is used
4 HP, 252 Def, 252 Sp. Def
Blaze/ Intimidate
Fake out
Will 0 wisp
Overheat/ Protect
U-turn

Torracat may not have the power of its evolution but this Attack slasher set it can overcome. Fake out is for free damage on anyone outside of Shield Dust/ Inner Focus users. Next turn is all up to happenstance; U-turn to get out or go right into Will-o-wisp. Will-o-wisp is for offensive powerhouses or for that nice burn damage. Protect for a little more free damage, then switch out and repeat Fake out --> Protect --> U-turn. The same If you go the Overheat route; Fake out --> Overheat --> U-turn to get out of dodge.

Alternate is to use Leech life instead of Protect if you prefer to keep healing, but whether or not you want two bug attacks is all up to you. If you do have Intimidate, then you should consider sacrificing Def evs for HP evs. Recommendation: HP 84 Def 172 with max Sp. Def.

 

[Neosonic97]

Little Cup: Litten.

Litten actually has potential as a bulky 'mon in Little Cup thanks to Intimidate and Leech Life, as well as access to key support moves like Will-O-Wisp. It can also pose a fair offensive presence thanks to moves like Flare Blitz, Shadow Claw and Leech Life which makes Litten rather versatile for a pure Fire-Type. On top of this, Water-types aren't quite as common in Little Cup as in other Metagames, so Litten should see a fair amount of use, being one of the bulkier 'mons. Also, Litten is actually faster than Incineroar and has access to Bulk Up, which, alongside its passable base 60 attack and Intimidate (When it comes out) can make Litten rather threatening in LC. About the only thing it can't run in LC are Special Sets as the only tools it has regarding that are Flamethrower and Hidden Power (And Nasty Plot, as Generic Villager #5 pointed out), and... Round, I guess? It just ain't worth using a special set- if you wanted a Special Fire Type, you'd be best off using Cyndaquil (from Island Scan) for Scarfed Eruption. You either want a Physical Attacker Litten or a Physical Wall Litten in LC. Either way, it deals with the Physical Side very well, which makes sense, given what it evolves into.

Literally; Leech Life is ONLY an option on an Assault Vest set for sustain; it's just totally redundant otherwise. Fire and Dark hit pretty much everything Bug does for SE damage; so anything that Leech Life is gonna hurt, Darkest Lariet or Flare Blitz is gonna hurt a lot more. If I was gonna suggest an offensive set; you've got far better coverage options than Leech Life - Cross Chop; EQ... even Outrage.

Leech Life does hit one thing harder than both Flare Blitz and Darkest Lariat, but that one thing is hit harder by Outrage. Namely, Guzzlord (Who Incineroar doesn't really want to stay in on in the first place).
Well, and Hydreigon, if we're using Island Scan.

Also of note: Incineroar is one of the few physical attackers that can recklessly attack Toucannon and NOT get punished by Beak Blast.

 

[bobguy117]

TIGER MILLIONAIRE
EV: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 Sp.Def
Nature: Adamant
Item: Sitrus Berry/Air Balloon
Ability: Intimidate
- Protect
- Fake Out
- Snarl/Will-o-Wisp/Toxic/U-Turn/Flare Blitz
- Snarl/Will-o-Wisp/Toxic/U-Turn/Flare Blitz

Incineroar essentially has all the options that Arcanine does in its bulky support role, plus better defensive stats, higher attack, and Fake Out and U-Turn. Leech Life is another option, though it's difficult to find room for it on a set when U-Turn is an option.

This set is for doubles, specifically VGC. Sadly until Intimidate is released, Incineroar will be better off as a mediocre slow bulky attacker.

 

[JZG]

Incineroar is at best decent in VGC 2017 currently. However, if it gains access to its hidden ability, Intimidate, it could become a major force in VGC. The way I see it, an Intimidate Incineroar could run two sets: bulky offensive and support.
Offensive Incineroar
Item: Assault Vest/Life Orb/Incinium Z/Firium Z
Ability: Intimidate
252 HP/252 Atk/4 Def
Adamant nature
- Fake Out
- Flare Blitz
- Darkest Lariat/Throat Chop/Crunch
- Leech Life/Cross Chop/Low Sweep/Shadow Claw/Snarl/Protect
If you're not running Assault Vest you'll want Protect in that last slot. Otherwise, just pick a coverage move. You'll be using your STABs most of the time anyway. Snarl is also an option to offer a bit of support to Incineroar's partner.

Supportive Incineroar
Item: Sitrus Berry/Lum Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
252 HP/12 Atk/108 Def/132 SpD/4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Will-O-Wisp
- Snarl
- Protect/Flare Blitz/Scary Face/Taunt
First 3 moves are pretty standard for the support set, last one is up to you. Scary Face is actually a potentially interesting speed control option. The EV spread is designed to survive 2 -1 Garchomp Earthquakes or 2 Modest Tapu Lele Moonblasts without needing a recovery item

 

[Incineroar]

No thoughts on comparing to Houndoom / Mega Houndoom?

-

I love it when the POTW compare by elements.

For Venusaur, it said Roserade was the preferred Grass/Poison due to higher speed and special A but that Venusaur certainly comes close.

For Zygarde, it compared it to Garchomp, and favored Garchomp.

However, for Genesect, it did not compare to Scizor. Or the other 2.

And for Swampert article it did not say who the preferred Water/Ground is, as Seismitoad is faster.

So back on track. Houndoom is faster than Incineroar so I wonder what it will say who's better if it compares lol.