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Community POTW #003

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Leonn

Well-Known Member
Wind The Frog!

Nature-Timid
Ability- Protean
Item-Assault Vest(or whatever it is)
Surf/hydro pump
ice beam
grass knot
shadow sneak
IVs-252 speed. 252 SpAttk. 6 defense/SpaD

Surf/hydro pump takes out a nice variety of pokemon, rock,ground,fire, and it also provides neutral damage to a lot of pokemon. Ice beam is great for taking out dragon, grass, flying, and ground pokemon. Grass Knot is really good for taking out pokemon such as, other water pokemon, especially the likes of swampert, quagsire, and palpitoad, to name a few, or if the pokemon is just really heavy it works pretty well too. Shadow Sneak is a nifty move, not only does it provide you with a quick attack of sorts, but with protean you get stab, and you can counter people who will open with a fighting move to try and crit a normal greninja *cough*blaziken*cough* and others ofcourse.

Protean is essential, with it you get stab on everything, and if you can figure out your opponent, you can truly run circles around them, because you should truly be able to move before them every single time, potentially changing your type to something different each time and with assault vest, you are able to make up for the lowish Special Defense, which is also essential, because most moves that you'll be attacked with, will more then likely be special attacks.

Greninja is awesome, I'm using 1 on my team, and it rocks, with the combination of it's amazing speed that is barely ever out ran, and it's awesome special attack, AND the assault vest (which gives it awesome special defense), and perhaps most importantly it's ability to change typing before anyone can really attack it, truly makes Greninja a venerable foe, a stealthy ninja.
 

halodeoxys

wanna see me run to that mountain and back
AND the assault vest (which gives it awesome special defense)
Greninja still just doesn't have the defense for the vest and rather appreciates the offense boost. Even in random matchup in game where all pokemon need different items just use Expert belt if you already have something with life orb/specs.
 

Leonn

Well-Known Member
Greninja still just doesn't have the defense for the vest and rather appreciates the offense boost. Even in random matchup in game where all pokemon need different items just use Expert belt if you already have something with life orb/specs.

I disagree, the beefed up SpDefense is much more important than a expert belt or a pfft life orb. Greninja is really strong as it is, but his defenses are weak, so using the assault vest is essential, because most moves people will use on you are going to be special, most electric, leaf, fire, ice, dark, pshycic, fairy, ghost, and water moves are. Back when I didn't use it, he was getting 1 shotted like crazy and it's not because his IVs are lacking, I have a 5 IV 1, he's just weak as it is, and needs the defense.
 

PrincessAbsol

Active Member
I disagree, the beefed up SpDefense is much more important than a expert belt or a pfft life orb. Greninja is really strong as it is, but his defenses are weak, so using the assault vest is essential, because most moves people will use on you are going to be special, most electric, leaf, fire, ice, dark, pshycic, fairy, ghost, and water moves are. Back when I didn't use it, he was getting 1 shotted like crazy and it's not because his IVs are lacking, I have a 5 IV 1, he's just weak as it is, and needs the defense.

Most moves people use will probably be priority, like Bullet Punch and Shadow Sneak. Greninja has base 103 Special Attack, which isn't bad but it's not going to be doing much damage to anything with Special Defense investment, despite its perma-STAB.
 

2406Blackbird

CasualMediocre Gamer
I disagree, the beefed up SpDefense is much more important than a expert belt or a pfft life orb. Greninja is really strong as it is, but his defenses are weak, so using the assault vest is essential, because most moves people will use on you are going to be special, most electric, leaf, fire, ice, dark, pshycic, fairy, ghost, and water moves are. Back when I didn't use it, he was getting 1 shotted like crazy and it's not because his IVs are lacking, I have a 5 IV 1, he's just weak as it is, and needs the defense.

You really should not use Assault Vest. With base 71 spec defense, the vest only boosts it up to a mediocre 106, rivaling that of a Mismagius or Roserade, except Greninja is worse since it has no EVs in Spec. Defense, as they need to be invested in Spec. Attack and Speed. Greninja is in no position to be taking hits at all, that is why you are supposed to switch out instead of risking staying in an getting OHKO'ed. If you really need to stay in most of the time with Greninja, use the Focus sash, otherwise switch into another Pokemon with good defenses. But hey if you can make Assault Vest work, then by all means use it.

Also I'm gonna agree with everyone saying that Life Orb or Expert Belt is better. It makes the difference between 95% damage on a Pokemon or an OHKO, because the knockout really matters. Even if you are doing 50% on some Pokemon, that damage can pay off in the long run.
 

jr0904

Beginning Trainer
Protean IS available not only from Friend Safari but from the use of the new item the Ability Capsule. And there is no point to giving it a One hit kill suicide move with it having so much more potential.

Of course i know that. I meant by the hydro cannon set would only be there if it had ONLY the torrent ability.

Also the ability capsule DONT WORK when it comes to switching to their hidden abilities. it said that on the itemdex.


There are far better Blissy checks than Hyper Beam Porgyon-Z. For instance, any and all fighting types can beat it without sacrificing themselves.

It's true that Hyper Beam attacks can be used to revenge kill, but generally, pokemon who need to be revenge killed are fragile, offensive pokemon. All you need is a hard hitter with a choice scarf to take out a booster, like Garchomp. Hyper Beam attacks are just too risky, since they pretty much guarantee either a KO or for another set up pokemon to take it's place.
It's in the friend safari, so actually, Protean is released. I just caught a magician Braixen the other day.

but lets not forget , its very frail. sure not rampardos frail , but its not gonna survive much hits even with protean . Mostly it would be in the BL ( Borderline ) tier since its ability clearly makes it too powerful for UU , and only its torrent version is UU ( Underused ) which in a way makes its hydro cannon set sort of useful. especially if your opponent is the last one.

Also, Chandelure was OP with Shadow Tag, so now that it's gone, it can finally fight in OU again. It's actually grateful for that change.


OP? what the hell does that mean? for one thing Shadow Tag was the reason why it was popular in gen 5 (excluding Haxorus and others ) and was one of the most look forward to being released even though chandelure is still borderline at best. its too powerful for UU with or without shadow tag, but way too frail and slow for OU.
 
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Leonn

Well-Known Member
@2406black bird, princess absol

Idk about everyone else, but that set up works wicked wicked well for me, and if you don't like it, don't use it.
 

YagamiNoir4896

Well-Known Member
Of course i know that. I meant by the hydro cannon set would only be there if it had ONLY the torrent ability.

Also the ability capsule DONT WORK when it comes to switching to their hidden abilities. it said that on the itemdex.




but lets not forget , its very frail. sure not rampardos frail , but its not gonna survive much hits even with protean . Mostly it would be in the BL ( Borderline ) tier since its ability clearly makes it too powerful for UU , and only its torrent version is UU ( Underused ) which in a way makes its hydro cannon set sort of useful. especially if your opponent is the last one.




OP? what the hell does that mean? for one thing Shadow Tag was the reason why it was popular in gen 5 (excluding Haxorus and others ) and was one of the most look forward to being released even though chandelure is still borderline at best. its too powerful for UU with or without shadow tag, but way too frail and slow for OU.

First of all, I'm surprised that you said that Porygon-Z can KO a specially defensive Blissey with Hyper Beam prior to this. Choice Specs Modest Adaptability Hyper Beam barely 2HKOes after Leftovers, giving it plenty of time to Softboiled.

Moving on, I doubt any of us (other than the one that mentioned Assault Vest) have denied that Greninja is frail. What Greninja can do, however, is to abuse it's moves to gain and remove weaknesses and resistances, and even immunities. For examples, you're using a Choice Band Breloom VS a Greninja. If Greninja uses Shadow Sneak, Greninja will get an immunity to Mach Punch, gaining a significant advantage. As of your fascination with Hydro Cannon, I find it to be very, very, very situational. I agree, the best moment to use it is when your opponent is down to his last. But then again, why waste such a valuable moveslot for just one move that risks possibly your entire team that can only be effectively used at one moment? The recharge turn is very exploitable. You foe can set up a Sub, Swords Dance, or whatever the hell it wants, depending on what is appropriate, before significantly damaging, if not sweeping, your team.

Also, OP means overpowered. Shadow Tag is an extremely overpowered ability. It turned something so mediocre in Gothitelle to BL. Bring something monstrously powerful such as Chandelure with it, and as long as it switches in carefully, it's a confirmed KO on many things. It's also one of the reasons why sand teams and Dugtrio become much more common.
 
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Xernoblade

Live long & prosper
Greninja is the ultimate super-destructive Ninja Frog!

Greninja @ Flying Gem/No Item (since we can't get F-Gem)
Nature: Hasty/Adamant (Hasty is better)
EVs: 252Atk/252Spd/4HP
Ability: Protean
Power-Up Punch
Waterfall
Night Slash
Acrobatics

This set is designed to kill. If you can take one hit, use Power-Up Punch and your Attack increases. Then sweep everything with the other moves. Protean adds unpredictability and allows STAB with every hit.
 

Dragonquester

Fear the dragon
Am I the only one who thinks greninja can use torrent effectively? I mean, protean is freakin kickass, but think about it. Greninja takes a hard shot, low health, you know you're faster. Opponent thinks oh s*** what did I do. KO with over powered surf/hydro pump. But that's just my opinion.
 

ajgrocks100

The Loomer
Greninja takes a hard shot, low health, you know you're faster. Opponent thinks oh s*** what did I do.
Remember, greninja is frail. Like, wood takes better hits. Protean is used for greninjas survivability, a trait that if it lacked, it would be a mere mixed delphox water clone-ish.... you get the point.
 

T-Bolt

Electrifying.
Remember, greninja is frail. Like, wood takes better hits. Protean is used for greninjas survivability, a trait that if it lacked, it would be a mere mixed delphox water clone-ish.... you get the point.

While Protean does help in Greninja's survivability, letting it survive more than on hit, protean's main use is to enhance its offensive capabilities. Think about it, you get STAB on any move you use! Moves like ice beam hit 1.5 times as hard as they do on non-protean sets.

It beats me why people are using weird hidden powers just to get a defensive type when Greninja has horrible defensive stats. Seriously, why waste a moveslot on a base 60 move with poor offensive use? Shadow sneak is also a risky move to use, since it has low base power and it's only real use is to turn into a ghost type, and there's a good chance the fighting type user would think you would switch and use a move other than Mach punch/fighting moves.

Leftovers isn't going to come of much use either, and the same for choice items, since they prevent Greninja from using Protean to it's full potential. Some people even suggested weakness policy lol.
 
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jr0904

Beginning Trainer
First of all, I'm surprised that you said that Porygon-Z can KO a specially defensive Blissey with Hyper Beam prior to this. Choice Specs Modest Adaptability Hyper Beam barely 2HKOes after Leftovers, giving it plenty of time to Softboiled.

Well that is the reason why it was mainly used on 4th gen and 5th gen. as a last mean to OHKO Blissey, but not the case for Chanssey if it have Evolite .

Moving on, I doubt any of us (other than the one that mentioned Assault Vest) have denied that Greninja is frail. What Greninja can do, however, is to abuse it's moves to gain and remove weaknesses and resistances, and even immunities. For examples, you're using a Choice Band Breloom VS a Greninja. If Greninja uses Shadow Sneak, Greninja will get an immunity to Mach Punch, gaining a significant advantage. As of your fascination with Hydro Cannon, I find it to be very, very, very situational. I agree, the best moment to use it is when your opponent is down to his last. But then again, why waste such a valuable moveslot for just one move that risks possibly your entire team that can only be effectively used at one moment? The recharge turn is very exploitable. You foe can set up a Sub, Swords Dance, or whatever the hell it wants, depending on what is appropriate, before significantly damaging, if not sweeping, your team.

For one thing of course its situational , and should only be used if it only have Torrent cause unfortunately the Ability Capsule doesnt change the ability permanently and furthermore it doesnt change it to the hidden ability , if it was the case then of course hydro cannon would get the shaft.

Also, OP means overpowered. Shadow Tag is an extremely overpowered ability. It turned something so mediocre in Gothitelle to BL. Bring something monstrously powerful such as Chandelure with it, and as long as it switches in carefully, it's a confirmed KO on many things. It's also one of the reasons why sand teams and Dugtrio become much more common.

Unfortunately Chandelure is also BL too since its very frail and shadow tag wouldnt change it. just put in something that abuses pursuit and it'll do down after spikes/stealth rocks damage. it may be powerful , but its in the same boat as Rampardos when it comes to what tiers it belongs. However giving it shadow tag in 5th gen is the main reason people used it. now that the big N have given it the god awful infiltrator , dont be surprised that its uses fall drastically.
 
Well that is the reason why it was mainly used on 4th gen and 5th gen. as a last mean to OHKO Blissey, but not the case for Chanssey if it have Evolite .

Hyper Beam on Porygon-Z was a gimmick from the beginning that saw a very short stint in 4th Gen and was never used in 5th Gen because it's so bad. I also think you're missing the point about Blissey.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 426-502 (59.66 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

Modest Choice Specs Porygon-Z cannot even OHKO physically defensive Blissey with a layer of Spikes and Stealth Rock. It was never able to OHKO specially defensive Blissey.

For one thing of course its situational , and should only be used if it only have Torrent cause unfortunately the Ability Capsule doesnt change the ability permanently and furthermore it doesnt change it to the hidden ability , if it was the case then of course hydro cannon would get the shaft.

Even with Torrent, Hydro Cannon should still be dropped. In a game where every turn matters, deliberately giving your opponent a free turn is a terrible idea. The only way you don't is if you are positive that Greninja will die right after using Hydro Cannon, and that's a big gamble. You'd be far better off running another coverage move or U-turn or something than a super situational move that can give your opponent a free turn to do whatever they want if you don't lose Greninja or win the game immediately after.


Unfortunately Chandelure is also BL too since its very frail and shadow tag wouldnt change it. just put in something that abuses pursuit and it'll do down after spikes/stealth rocks damage. it may be powerful , but its in the same boat as Rampardos when it comes to what tiers it belongs. However giving it shadow tag in 5th gen is the main reason people used it. now that the big N have given it the god awful infiltrator , dont be surprised that its uses fall drastically.

What? Chandelure with Shadow Tag would have been an easy Uber, possibly even a quickban. Seriously, even Gothitelle with is pretty low base 95 SpA stat, slow base 65 Spe stat, and bad typing became broken in UU and pretty good in OU just because of Shadow Tag. Chandelure, on the other hand, has an insane base 145 SpA stat (tied with Thundurus-T for the highest of anything allowed in the standard metagame), as well as a pretty solid movepool. It also has a much better base 80 Spe stat, which lets it run a Modest nature and still outspeed every unboosted Pokemon in OU bar Jolteon. Its defensive typing is also significantly better than Gothitelle's. Chandelure's frailty and ability to be Pursuit trapped is honestly irrelevant since it still comes in on whatever it wants and removes it from the game, and there's nothing you can do about it. If your Ferrothorn is the only thing on your team that can handle my DD Dragonite, then I can just bring Chandelure in and remove it with Fire Blast. Who cares if you bring Tyranitar in and kill Chandelure with Pursuit? My Chandelure already did its job and you were helpless to stop it, and now my Dragonite sweeps you cleanly because Chandelure mindlessly removed your counter.

Also, Shadow Tag was never the reason people used Chandelure because Shadow Tag Chandelure was never released.
 

PrincessAbsol

Active Member
Also, Shadow Tag was never the reason people used Chandelure because Shadow Tag Chandelure was never released.

People used it in Dreamworld OU on Pokemon Online, to test out strategies before it was released. Because it got usage on a simulator, we know exactly how useful Chandelure was, which is, only situational.
 
People used it in Dreamworld OU on Pokemon Online, to test out strategies before it was released. Because it got usage on a simulator, we know exactly how useful Chandelure was, which is, only situational.

Yes, it existed in PO's Dream World OU, which it was eventually banned from. Smogon had a DW metagame where it was not banned, and I played it a lot. That's where I found out just how messed up Chandelure really was, but the discussion was never about the Dream World metagame.

Also, Shadow Tag Chandelure was never situational. It was #1/#2 in usage for a very long time in DW OU for a reason. Being able to trap and guarantee a kill on anything you can KO (which is a lot when you have a base 145 SpA stat and a pretty solid movepool) is a phenomenal form of support for sweepers, and some sets such as SubCM could completely 6-0 teams if it found something it could set up on, and it did all that completely effortlessly. Heck, one of the biggest reasons that Tyranitar was used so much as a Sand starter instead of Hippowdon is simply because it could limit Chandelure to just one kill, but even then it might be too late. Tyranitar's Pursuit trapping ability was one of the big reasons behind Landorus-I's ban and Keldeo's second suspect test, so you can imagine that being able to trap literally anything you want is far more powerful.

Unless you mean that using experience from the Dream World OU ladders is situational, in which case I agree.
 
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avsimone

Magma Trainer
Physical Greninja set:
just frog-et about special attacks for now
Jolly/Hasty nature
Protean
holding focus sash OR LO
252Spd, 252 Atk, 4 HP
- Water Shuriken
- U-turn
- Spikes
- night slash/ smack down /aerial ace

: spikes allows you to set up hazards and surprise anything that comes at you with an electric type move (doesn't work so well for grass). u-turn for obvious reasons, water shuriken counters a talonflame who's adamant and not fully invested in speed pretty well, and it can break through substitutes. but it's not all that powerful so don't expect to sweep with it.

I toad you that special attacks hit harder
Timid/Modest nature
Protean
holding LO or Choice spec
252 sp.Ark 252 Spd 4 HP
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Grass knot
- Spikes/ hidden power steel/flying/ground/fairy / U-Turn

With this one you have a choice, so each mve allows you to have different resistances
 

ajgrocks100

The Loomer
Also, Shadow Tag Chandelure was never situational. It was #1/#2 in usage for a very long time in DW OU for a reason. Being able to trap and guarantee a kill on anything you can KO (which is a lot when you have a base 145 SpA stat and a pretty solid movepool) is a phenomenal form of support for sweepers, and some sets such as SubCM could completely 6-0 teams if it found something it could set up on, and it did all that completely effortlessly.

When did this become a chandelure disscussion? lol.

anyway, another set I have thought up.

Kecleon v2.0
Naive@Lefties/Lum
Protean (duh)
-Scald
-Shadow Sneak(Trust me, its great with protean)
-Spikes/Protect/Toxic Spikes/U-Turn/Toxic
-Taunt(TRUST ME IT HELPS) or anything above

In This set Taunt REALLY helps. Like, as long as you can manipulate protean to your advantage. This set will show you protean to a great advantage. Scald, burns, the drill. Taunt, sub/protect/status prevention (lum still trollish), Shadow sneak your main protean staller, especially with mega gengar and kangaskan.
The third slot is up to you. Spikes are pretty, cus hazards are kewl, but U-turn is for the sticky spots, while Toxic/Protect are for stalling.
 

halodeoxys

wanna see me run to that mountain and back
Physical Greninja set:
just frog-et about special attacks for now
Jolly/Hasty nature
Protean
holding focus sash OR LO
252Spd, 252 Atk, 4 HP
- Water Shuriken
- U-turn
- Spikes
- night slash/ smack down /aerial ace
Just some suggestions, For a physical Greninja you would probably prefer Adamant, Greninja is fast as balls already so there's no real need to be running jolly.
Water Shuriken and Focus Sash are situational on greninja so generally Waterfall and LO are better.
Remember, greninja is frail. Like, wood takes better hits.
Literally Trevenant has higher base defenses than Greninja rofl.
The only time you would want to run a move to abuse Protean defensively btw would be setting up Spikes on a predicted tbolt or volt switch or something to get a free layer up.
 

jr0904

Beginning Trainer
Yes, it existed in PO's Dream World OU, which it was eventually banned from. Smogon had a DW metagame where it was not banned, and I played it a lot. That's where I found out just how messed up Chandelure really was, but the discussion was never about the Dream World metagame.

Also, Shadow Tag Chandelure was never situational. It was #1/#2 in usage for a very long time in DW OU for a reason. Being able to trap and guarantee a kill on anything you can KO (which is a lot when you have a base 145 SpA stat and a pretty solid movepool) is a phenomenal form of support for sweepers, and some sets such as SubCM could completely 6-0 teams if it found something it could set up on, and it did all that completely effortlessly. Heck, one of the biggest reasons that Tyranitar was used so much as a Sand starter instead of Hippowdon is simply because it could limit Chandelure to just one kill, but even then it might be too late. Tyranitar's Pursuit trapping ability was one of the big reasons behind Landorus-I's ban and Keldeo's second suspect test, so you can imagine that being able to trap literally anything you want is far more powerful.

Unless you mean that using experience from the Dream World OU ladders is situational, in which case I agree.

And it ( Shadow Tag Chandelure ) was one of the most looked forward too hidden abilities to be released. unfortunately changing it to infiltrator will seriously hamper it.

Its similar to Greninja's hidden ability , the only difference is that Protean doesn't suck unlike infiltrator. unfortunately its better off on a defensive Pokemon or those that have 4x weaknesses. Don't get me wrong , the ability on greninja is wonderful on an offensive set, but its way too frail to be used for very long. Especially if the opponent can predict the ability which is all the time since torrent is mediocre and is only good for Neverused and Rarelyused suicide sets cause just like Serperior , without its hidden ability that is where it would belong.
 
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