Community POTW #003

[Dragonquester]

What does BL mean?

 

[Dragonquester]

On the concept of chandelure, when the new pokemon transfer thing comes out, couldn't you just transfer chandelure with shadow tag to X/Y? Or would the ability change?

 

[ajgrocks100]

Water Shuriken and Focus Sash are situational on greninja so generally Waterfall and LO are better.
Literally Trevenant has higher base defenses than Greninja rofl.

Water Shuirken has priority, hits multipule times, and has a beast animation.
Waterfall doesn't

and Lol, Rofl

 

[halodeoxys]

Water Shuirken has priority, hits multipule times, and has a beast animation.
Waterfall doesn't

and Lol, Rofl

Water Shuriken has really unreliable damage and Greninja is so fast anyway that it outspeeds most everything. If you really want a Talonflame counter pick up a Rotom-W. Also even at max damage Shuriken is only 75 BP.
Also waterfalls animation is top notch son

 

[Xernoblade]

On the concept of chandelure, when the new pokemon transfer thing comes out, couldn't you just transfer chandelure with shadow tag to X/Y? Or would the ability change?

I don't think they've released a Shadow Tag Litwick.

How about trying Greninja with Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Haze and an attacking move?

 

[Zachmac]

but lets not forget , its very frail. sure not rampardos frail , but its not gonna survive much hits even with protean . Mostly it would be in the BL ( Borderline ) tier since its ability clearly makes it too powerful for UU , and only its torrent version is UU ( Underused ) which in a way makes its hydro cannon set sort of useful. especially if your opponent is the last one.

Half the time, or probably more, Hydro Cannon will just be a wasteful. If proteon Greninja is OU or BL, then torrent Greninja will be as well-that's why Blaziken with blaze was banned form OU. And since they'll be same tier, Greninja will be far better off running four moves of different types+proteon.

In the case that Hydro Cannon would be needed to do just the right amount of damage to KO the last pokemon or else you'd lose...that is extremely situational. It could possibly happen, but it's not likely enough to justify the waste of a moveslot. And again, Hydro Cannon leaves a huge opening for your opponent to come in and do whatever they feel like.

And in case you missed that proteon Greninja was released...
http://www.serebii.net/xy/friendsafari.shtml

OP? what the hell does that mean?

OP stands for overpowered. With the nerfs to weather and offense, it seems to me that Gamefreak is starting to pay some attention to the competitive metagame, and with that, they realized how overpowered shadow tag can be. It's what made Wobbuffet OP in gen 4, and it seemed that Chandelure was going to be overpowered with it when it got released as well.

And it ( Shadow Tag Chandelure ) was one of the most looked forward too hidden abilities to be released. unfortunately changing it to infiltrator will seriously hamper it.

Actually, it's probably more like Blaziken's speed boost in gen 5. The ability is so good, it'd send it straight to Ubers.

Infilntrator is actually it's saving grace keeping it out of the ban list.

Water Shuriken has really unreliable damage and Greninja is so fast anyway that it outspeeds most everything. If you really want a Talonflame counter pick up a Rotom-W. Also even at max damage Shuriken is only 75 BP.
Also waterfalls animation is top notch son

At minimum, it's at 30. Though, I suppose you could, for the sake of revenge killing, consider it a base 45 power attack with 80% accuracy, just a bit weaker than other priority moves.

It may not be Greninja's best move, but I think it might be able to pull it off. Probably something for the other options section if your team has problems with Volcarona or something.

How about trying Greninja with Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Haze and an attacking move?

I'm thinking something along the lines of...
Greninja @ Leftovers/Focus Sash
252 HP/252 Speed
Jolly/Proteon
-Spikes
-Toxic Spikes/Haze/Waterfall
-Toxic Spikes/Haze/Waterfall
-U-turn

Set up hazards, U-turn to safety. It could serve as a pivot in a voltturn team or as a suicide lead.

 

[2406Blackbird]

I don't think there is a point continuing the argument about the usefulness of Hydro Cannon. We are entitled to our own opinions, but the only way we can confirm whether or not it is useful is by letting Serebii decide. They will post the Greninja sets in a few days and then we can consider opinions from there on forth.

Water Shuriken on the other hand, in my opinion is only useful when fighting Pokemon with priority moves. If you are brought down to low health or 1 HP through the Focus Sash, seeing as Greninja is probably faster, it would be beneficial to get at least some damage in before dying off (that damage might break the foe's Focus Sash or Sturdy).

 

[YagamiNoir4896]

Although Water Shuriken's power may seem underwhelming, it is one of the only priority moves that can receive various boosts as well; While most priority abusers, such as Scizor and Hitmontop, complement this with STAB and Technician, Greninja has a few boosts to add to it; obligatory STAB, Rain, and Torrent. As previously mentioned in my mixed Greninja set,Water Shuriken's power range becomes 67-160 with STAB and Torrent or Rain, or 100-240 with all three boosts factored. This is more poweful than Torrent Feraligatr's Aqua Jet in the Rain, which although has a fixed 135 base power with all boosts factored, is still quite small compared to Greninja's range.

 

[KillerDraco]

Although Water Shuriken's power may seem underwhelming, it is one of the only priority moves that can receive various boosts as well; While most priority abusers, such as Scizor and Hitmontop, complement this with STAB and Technician, Greninja has a few boosts to add to it; obligatory STAB, Rain, and Torrent. As previously mentioned in my mixed Greninja set,Water Shuriken's power range becomes 67-160 with STAB and Torrent or Rain, or 100-240 with all three boosts factored. This is more poweful than Torrent Feraligatr's Aqua Jet in the Rain, which although has a fixed 135 base power with all boosts factored, is still quite small compared to Greninja's range.

There's no reason to factor in Torrent because Torrent Greninja won't be used. Protean is the reason it's as good as it is, guaranteeing STAB on everything and switching its defensive typing to make it slightly more difficult to check. Not to mention that to be in Torrent's range means it'll probably die quickly after. In addition, with Weather's nerf it won't be quite as prevalent this generation as it was last, so it's not necessarily a given as it would have been in Gen 5.

In other words Water Shuriken is still unreliable at best. It could be situationally useful but those situations are a bit too specific and relatively scarce to the point where it's usually better to run more reliable options.

And for the record, most Feraligatr run Swords Dance with Aqua Jet, which would still outdamage Greninja. And if you're going to say "But that needs a turn to set up", well, so does rain.

 

[YagamiNoir4896]

There's no reason to factor in Torrent because Torrent Greninja won't be used. Protean is the reason it's as good as it is, guaranteeing STAB on everything and switching its defensive typing to make it slightly more difficult to check. Not to mention that to be in Torrent's range means it'll probably die quickly after. In addition, with Weather's nerf it won't be quite as prevalent this generation as it was last, so it's not necessarily a given as it would have been in Gen 5.

In other words Water Shuriken is still unreliable at best. It could be situationally useful but those situations are a bit too specific and relatively scarce to the point where it's usually better to run more reliable options.

And for the record, most Feraligatr run Swords Dance with Aqua Jet, which would still outdamage Greninja. And if you're going to say "But that needs a turn to set up", well, so does rain.

Again, it's simply an option, albeit a sightly inferior one, to Greninja's already versatile movepool. Greninja without priority struggles against one: Priority users, and two : Choice Scarfers. Seeing that Protean will always be used as you said, the only chance Greninja has against most of them are hoping that it's priority atttacks change it into a resisted attack, which even then would do significant damage due to it's high fraility. And what priority attacks does it have? Unless I'm missing something, there are only five; Shadow Sneak for Ghost, Water Shuriken, Mat Block, Quick Attack and Protect. "It resists Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, Sucker Punch, Shadow Sneak and Water Shuriken!" Protean makes this irrelevant by not mantaining a fixed type. Protean is very good, but it isn't extremely hard to exploit either. Even with incredibly high speed and eternal STAB, Greninja is hampered by it's ability to be vulnerable to new types of moves as it acts, despite the fact that it will lose former weaknesses as well.

As for Choice Scarf users, anything ranging from Choice Scarf Tyranitar to anything else faster will outspeed it. Greninja's Speed is good, don't get me wrong; but it isn't as self sufficient as things like base 130s, that can outspeed further things like Choice Scarf base 70s. This stops U-turn, arguably one of Greninja's best assets with STAB, a non- hazard weak typing (similar to Scizor) and momentum gain.

To bring out my point in a whole, Water Shuriken covers these two things, so it isn't precisely an unreliable option.

 

[sbktdreed]

Greninja the Shinobi
(Physical set)
Item: Liechi Berry/Scope Lens
Adamant w/ 252 Attack, 252 Speed, 6 HP
Waterfall/Water Shuriken
Night Slash
Acrobatics/Aerial Ace
Smack Down/Substitute/Power-Up Punch/Spikes

(Special set)
Modest w/ 252 Sp Attack, 252 Speed, 6 HP
Item: Life Orb
Scald
Dark Pulse
Ice Beam
Hidden Power [Flying/Fire/Ground]

Countering
Defensive Pokémon with Electric/Grass/Fighting/Bug/Fairy-type moves like Escavalier, Wash Rotom, Ferrothorn, and Magnezone.

 

[halodeoxys]

Torrent should just be out of question rofl. Protean is what makes Greninja so versatile torrent never stacks up to it ever.

I don't think they've released a Shadow Tag Litwick.

How about trying Greninja with Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Haze and an attacking move?

Not a bad idea but Tentacruel outclasses it with better defensive play minus Spikes. Also haze on Greninja is bad since its so frail and leaves it open for the opponent to attack, you're better off running another attacking move.
And no shadow tag litwick never happened, I guess GF noticed that it was pretty OP lol. Infiltrator is still decent though with the buff it got.