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Community POTW #005

Discussion in 'POTW Collaboration' started by Serebii, Dec 25, 2016.

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  1. Serebii

    Serebii And, as if by magic, the webmaster appeared... Staff Member Admin

  2. deoxysdude94

    deoxysdude94 lost the game again

    I'll go with an Ash-Greninja set.

    Greninja@life orb
    EV's: 252 speed, 252 sp atk 6 atk
    Ability: Battle bond

    hydro pump
    dark pulse
    ice beam/extrasensory/grass knot
    u-turn

    You have your 2 STAB moves, then a third move of choice for coverage. U-turn can for obvious reasons, and if predicted right, it can revenge kill something weakened, then transform.

    Although to be honest I think Protean Greninja does more damage anyway...
     
  3. Djura

    Djura 99% chance to hit

    Standard Greninja, I guess.

    Greninja@Life Orb
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
    Nature: Naive
    Ability: Protean

    Moveset:

    - Gunk Shot
    - Ice Beam
    - Dark Pulse
    - Low Kick / Extrasensory / Hydro Pump / Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Electric

    Remember when Greninja got banned from ORAS OU? This was the set that got it banned. Gunk Shot was one of the moves that pushed it over the edge thanks to its ability to KO its former check Azumarill, and now it is able to catch the Tapus on the switch, particularly Tapu Bulu. Ice Beam and Dark Pulse are its primary STABs, allowing it to cover many Grass, Dragon, and Psychic threats. The last move is based on your team; depending on who you want to hit (Mantine, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Genesect, Heatran, Keldeo, you name it).

    I'll post more later because I am on my phone
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2016
  4. Aduro

    Aduro Mt.BtlMaster

    AshGreninja does quite a lot more than the regular kind with special water and dark moves and doesn't lose much damage with protean moves. Its almost like a mega evolution with an item allowed so it does insane amounts of damage. Not to mention its attack stat is massively higher.


    252 SpA Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Aggron-Mega: 187-222 (54.3 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Aggron-Mega: 142-168 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


    252 SpA Greninja-Ash Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Aggron-Mega: 51-60 (14.8 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO
    252 SpA Protean Greninja Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Aggron-Mega: 58-69 (16.8 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO


    Plus its base speed moves it up above some of the more dangerous ubers like mewtwo X, gengar, shaymin and darkrai. And max speed jolly Mega Tyranitar after it dragon dances.
     
  5. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    Greninja is amazing this gen, especially as a rain sweeper it can deal tremendous damage, even though Battle Bond is illegal with Egg moves, pre-evolution moves, and transfer moves, that Base 132 speed stat and base 153 Sp.Atk stat are hard to pass by, that's just shy of Mewtwo's Sp.Atk stat. This thing helped me through the Elite Four pretty much on its own.

    Greninja @ Life Orb / Lum Berry / Waterium Z
    Hasty nature
    252 Sp.Atk, 252 Speed, 4 HP
    Battle Bond ability
    -Water Shuriken
    -Hydro Pump
    -Dark Pulse / Ice Beam / U-Turn / Grass Knot
    -Dark Pulse / Ice Beam / U-Turn / Grass Knot

    This Greninja functions best in rain. Use for example a slow U-Turn Pelipper to get it in safely. Water Shuriken is amazing after transforming, especially in the rain. With the power boost its base power is equivalent to Scizor's Technician Bullet Punch, and that's prior to the rain boost. It also messes with Sturdy, Substitute, and Mimikyu's Disguise, and even though you're fast priority is still very useful to outrun other priority users, scarf users, or hit first when you're paralysed. Needless to say, Water Shuriken in the rain is very scary, it hits harder than Dark Pulse. Hydro Pump is your power move and hits like a ridiculous nuke in the rain, especially after transforming. It's also necessary to get sufficient power to get that first kill for transformation, as Greninja lacks power before transforming. The last two moves are coverage depending on your team. Dark Pulse is a reliable STAB move but it doesn't really cover all that much extra that Greninja has trouble with. Ice Beam is staple on water types to hit Dragons and Grass types, and U-Turn is great utility, as you keep your transformation when switching. Greninja can also run Grass Knot to cover Water types, specifically Primarina and Azumarill who resist pretty much everything else it has. Life Orb gives it even more power and is generally the best option, but Lum Berry is an option to get rid of status like paralysis. Finally, Waterium Z is an interesting option, but one-off. It gives you much more power for one turn to get that first kill, or to just hit even harder after transforming. Hydro Vortex hits really really hard in the rain.

    Personally I don't expect Battle Bond Greninja to get banned. It's very dangerous, but it requires that first kill before it can transform (unlike Mega-Evolutions) and it's very fragile. I expect it to become reasonably popular in OU rain teams though. It packs a lot more power than Kingdra for example. I also think Greninja would suffer a lot in Ubers, where it gets revenge killed too easily by ExtremeSpeed users like Rayquaza and where nothing is really weak to water, especially with Primal Groudon running around.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2016
  6. Karxrida

    Karxrida Lost in the Waves

    The only BB set worth running is Specs. LO is outclassed by Protean since you lose important coverage and initial power on what coverage you do have, so getting the first kill is much harder. Better to just nuke stuff with STABs.

    Don't bother with Hasty either. U-turn's damage is irrelevant when it's largely for pivoting, plus if you wanted to go mixed then Naive would be better.

    Whoever's writing this, make it explicit that any HP other than Ghost is illegal on BB Greninja due to fixed IVs.
     
  7. Djura

    Djura 99% chance to hit

    Uh, Ash-Greninja misses out on important OHKOs such as:

    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 289-341 (89.4 - 105.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 328-385 (101.5 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 315-374 (97.5 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 278-330 (86 - 102.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Ash-Greninja does not have the luxury of having access to multiple Hidden Power types or Gunk Shot and Low Kick, either.

    And for the record, Greninja cannot learn Energy Ball.
     
  8. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    I don't really agree with this. LO in rain still hits ridiculously hard, and I think Greninja is too fragile to really do Specs well, it has too much trouble switching in with common weaknesses like fighting, fairy, and electric. Protean has better coverage power but Battle Bond just hits so much harder on the water moves it can get by with mostly neutral hits. It hits harder than Kyogre's Hydro Pump in the rain. Protean also has a lot less speed than Battle Bond, and Greninja relies on its speed. Stuff like Mega Gengar, Dragon Dance Mega Tyranitar, Weavile, Jolteon, Tapu Koko, and Darkrai are all in between those two speed stats. I'm not so sure if Darkrai will stay banned with the Dark Void nerf, so outrunning it is also beneficial.

    Oops, forgot about that. I'll change that to Grass Knot.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2016
  9. Aduro

    Aduro Mt.BtlMaster

    Greninja doesn't have much of a place taking on Keldeo. It needs a fairly niche move to deak with it.


    Protean Greninja loses out on some important OHKOs that Ash-Greninja gets though. Bisharp, Zard X and Thundurus are guaranteed OHKOs if life orb Ash Greninja lands a hydro pump, but are 2HKOs from protean Greninja's hydro pump. And Ash Greninja will usually OHKO Genesect. I think you might be underestimating just how hard 153 Special Attack hits with an item.

    252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 153-180 (40 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 165-195 (43.1 - 51%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO

    ^life orb Ash-Greninja basically does more damage than Mega Mewtwo Y when using a move of equal power. Outside of heavy rain it has a more powerful hydro pump than Primal Kyogre. And unlike most pokemon with that kind of power, it has a really strong priority move in water shuriken which makes it difficult to revenge kill.
     
  10. BlazingRagnarok

    BlazingRagnarok Well-Known Member

    We need to look at more than just the kind of damage Greninja can do after it changes form because its transformation is NOT mega evolution. It has to be able in a role that gets KOs any way it can, which in Greninja's case means revenge killing. As fast as its base form is, there are enough threats that outrun it in the current meta that a scarf set could be viable.

    Greninja@Choice Scarf
    EVs: 4HP/252spatk/252spd
    Timid/Modest nature
    Ability: Battle Bond
    -Hydro Pump
    -Ice Beam
    -Grass Knot
    -Dark Pulse

    Choice scarf maximizes Greninja's revenge killing potential, allowing it to come in and take out the likes of Garchomp, Pheromosa, and possibly Tapu Koko. Grass Knot is for opposing Greninja, though a lack of Hidden Power really hurts BB Greninja's chances against Gyarados and Pelipper. Greninja appreciates rain, as stated earlier in the thread, but it might also want a teammate with a slow Volt Switch or U-Turn that can soften up opposing pokemon so it can come in and finish them off. Battle bond isn't a very difficult ability to deny for any team with Blissey/Chansey, so the element of surprise that accompanies many scarf builds is of equal, if not greater, value to increasing firepower with specs/LO.
     
  11. Djura

    Djura 99% chance to hit

    what

    I think you're underestimating how much STAB factors into hitting power. Bisharp and Thundurus are already guaranteed OHKOs with Low Kick and Ice Beam, respectively. Hidden Power Fire not only catches Genesect, but Scizor as well. Water Shuriken is a pretty weak priority move, only 20 BP when BB is active and three hits at a time. That Greninja-Keldeo calc was showing that the latter surviving is easier for it, and KOing back with Secret Sword.
     
  12. Karxrida

    Karxrida Lost in the Waves

    Extrasensory is not niche because it also hits Toxapex and Mega Venu. To give you an idea of how useful it is, the WIP analysis Smogon has for Greninja actually slashes it with Hydro Pump.
     
  13. Italianbaptist

    Italianbaptist Informed Casual

    Wow, I was expecting more Alola Pokemon before this guy but Ash-Greninja's quickly become one of my favorites so here goes...have mercy because I'm still starting out in competitive ;)

    For starters, this is the first Pokemon to come directly from the anime into the games (Yellow version was based off the anime but you weren't necessarily Ash if you didn't want to be) so that's a thing. Initially it seemed that Greninja was going to be written off because of its glass cannon status that other mons could pull off better. This particular author often still calls Ash-Greninja a "poor man's Pheromosa". But he's starting to gain ground in the competitive scene and it will be exciting to see what people can do with him, as long as it's not 2017 VGC :(

    Pro:
    In this early stage of the game, with just the Alola Dex as competition, Ash-Greninja is one of the fastest Pokemon around. It usually goes first for me even in the Battle Royal.
    It just OOZES coolness

    Con:
    Because Ash-Greninja's not in the Alola Dex, it won't be able to be used in 2017 VGC and there's a good chance more people will want to use Protean on him instead of Battle Bond in 2018.

    A couple comments/questions about sets:

    I need to check stats because this is in-game and I'd want to optimize them for competitive...
    but these are the moves I have on my Greninja:
    Water Shuriken
    Scald
    Ice Beam
    U-Turn

    I use Scald for STAB to get the first KO and hold off on Water Shuriken until later. You wouldn't believe how many times Water Shuriken would have the power to KO but only hit twice. Battle Bond, however ups the minimum amount of hits to 3 so it's better later in the game. Ice Beam is for Grass types as well as being a solid move that has a chance to freeze. And U-Turn is good for retreat and has been good against Dark types.

    But I'm seeing a lot of people using Hydro Pump instead of Scald. It's a little surprising to me because I distinctly remember the more accurate moves being used over the stronger moves (Thunderbolt vs Thunder, Ice Beam vs Blizzard). So how does Greninja compensate?

    Also, because Greninja's such a glass cannon I thought about using a Focus item. All I have is Focus Band and I don't know if the others are better - I haven't been able to make Focus Band work but maybe once. Any particular thing I'm missing?
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2016
  14. ampfire101

    ampfire101 Well-Known Member

    Only nature you can run on it is hardy, that's the only nature it comes with and you can change its HP type with bottle caps if need be
     
  15. BlazingRagnarok

    BlazingRagnarok Well-Known Member

    None of this is true. While the one in the demo has a fixed nature, the one received in the game proper is distinctly different. It can have any nature. Also, Hyper Training doesn't actually change IVs, it just increases stats to what they would be if the IVs were perfect. It has no effect on Hidden Power or breeding.
     
  16. Karxrida

    Karxrida Lost in the Waves

    The Nature is not set and Bottle Caps cannot be used to alter Hidden Power; they only simulate higher IVs, not change them.
     
  17. Lucario At Service

    Lucario At Service Calm Trainer

    The only thing set for 'Battle Bond' Greninja is its IV's and its 'Hidden Power' type (which is "Ghost" by the way), because it has fixed IV's at 20/31/20/31/20/31.

    'Bottle Caps' does not change base IV's, it just changes the final stats of the Pokemon as if it had perfect IV's.
     
  18. flashtone

    flashtone Active Member

    All the above combinations are great and all, but that's assuming that people receive that nature when they transfer their Ash-Greninja to either Sun or Moon from the demo (mine had a Lonely nature when I transferred it)
    This combination would be for those +Atk natures (or Jolly)

    Greninja@Choice Band/ Water or Dark Z-Crystal
    Ability : Battle Bond
    Nature : any +Atk nature or Jolly
    EV's : 252 Atk, 252 Speed, 4 Special Defence
    -Waterfall
    -Night Slash
    -Aerial Ace
    -U-Turn

    Because of Greninja's initial base 95 Attack, the best chance for it to activate Battle Bond would be to faint one of the opponent's pokemon with a super effective attack or U-Turn against an opponent's death fodder. After Battle Bond activates, base 145 Attack with base 132 Speed is nothing to sneeze at.

    Waterfall and Night Slash I believe are Greninja's best physical STAB's, each also has an additional effect with Waterfall's flinch chance and Night Slash's higher critical hit ratio, which could possibly help if hax is on your side. Since this is a Choice Band set, U-Turn would be used for getting extra damage and pivoting into another team member to take an attack that Greninja wouldn't be able to. Aerial Ace might only have 60 base power, but covers some of Greninja's weaknesses (Grass, Bug, Fighting), you could run Acrobatics instead if you decide to have Greninja hold a Z-Crystal, since after the Z-Crystal is used, Acrobatics has a base power of 110.

    Any +Atk nature (especially Brave) would be outclassed by Jolly since Greninja relies on it's speed to K.O opponents. However, if you knew exactly what you could outspeed with a +Atk nature, then you'd still be able to stay alive and be a problem for your opponent.
     
  19. generic villager #5

    generic villager #5 Your ad here!

    Honestly, one of the biggest problems with Ash-Greninja in singles might just be which tier it lands in eventually. I'm pretty sure it's different enough to warrant a (potential) separate tier placement, similar to therian formes for Landorus, Thundurus, and Tornadus, but it really comes down to whether it's consigned to Ubers or gets to enjoy OU. If Ubers, it's gotta hit hard, so almost without a doubt it'll need to run a Choice Scarf or Choice Specs. If it ends up in OU, it won't need to hit quite as hard and the versatility it might get out of a LO and/or a possible mixed set (highly questionable) could be more important.

    As for Z-crystals as the held item: I'm a little iffy about Z-moves since they only get one use and then leave you itemless, but Ash-Greninja might benefit from it, if for no better reason than that it will get the KO to activate Battle Bond in a tight spot.

    No analysis of classic Greninja from me, it's just too obvious.
     
  20. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    Mine was Hasty, but you can soft-reset it for different natures, similar to gift legendaries like Magearna.
     
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