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Community POTW #005

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Karxrida

Lost in the Waves
All the above combinations are great and all, but that's assuming that people receive that nature when they transfer their Ash-Greninja to either Sun or Moon from the demo (mine had a Lonely nature when I transferred it)
This combination would be for those +Atk natures (or Jolly)

Greninja@Choice Band/ Water or Dark Z-Crystal
Ability : Battle Bond
Nature : any +Atk nature or Jolly
EV's : 252 Atk, 252 Speed, 4 Special Defence
-Waterfall
-Night Slash
-Aerial Ace
-U-Turn

Because of Greninja's initial base 95 Attack, the best chance for it to activate Battle Bond would be to faint one of the opponent's pokemon with a super effective attack or U-Turn against an opponent's death fodder. After Battle Bond activates, base 145 Attack with base 132 Speed is nothing to sneeze at.

Waterfall and Night Slash I believe are Greninja's best physical STAB's, each also has an additional effect with Waterfall's flinch chance and Night Slash's higher critical hit ratio, which could possibly help if hax is on your side. Since this is a Choice Band set, U-Turn would be used for getting extra damage and pivoting into another team member to take an attack that Greninja wouldn't be able to. Aerial Ace might only have 60 base power, but covers some of Greninja's weaknesses (Grass, Bug, Fighting), you could run Acrobatics instead if you decide to have Greninja hold a Z-Crystal, since after the Z-Crystal is used, Acrobatics has a base power of 110.

Any +Atk nature (especially Brave) would be outclassed by Jolly since Greninja relies on it's speed to K.O opponents. However, if you knew exactly what you could outspeed with a +Atk nature, then you'd still be able to stay alive and be a problem for your opponent.
Physical is lame. There is a decently noticeable power drop-off (lower Attack stat, physical STABs have less BP, and Aerial Ace is a very weak coverage move) so Greninja is much easier to deal with.

Also, Z-Crystals are not consumed after use, so no boosted Acrobatcis.


Honestly, one of the biggest problems with Ash-Greninja in singles might just be which tier it lands in eventually. I'm pretty sure it's different enough to warrant a (potential) separate tier placement, similar to therian formes for Landorus, Thundurus, and Tornadus, but it really comes down to whether it's consigned to Ubers or gets to enjoy OU. If Ubers, it's gotta hit hard, so almost without a doubt it'll need to run a Choice Scarf or Choice Specs. If it ends up in OU, it won't need to hit quite as hard and the versatility it might get out of a LO and/or a possible mixed set (highly questionable) could be more important.

As for Z-crystals as the held item: I'm a little iffy about Z-moves since they only get one use and then leave you itemless, but Ash-Greninja might benefit from it, if for no better reason than that it will get the KO to activate Battle Bond in a tight spot.

No analysis of classic Greninja from me, it's just too obvious.
To my knowledge they are being tier separately. If BB does end up in Ubers, it will not be able to function because getting that first kill will be exceptionally difficult with all the fatmons (plus Primal Groudon laughs at Greninja). Deo-A exists if you want a fast, frail nuke, and it doesn't need to nab a kill to be a threat and got a new best friend in Tapu Lele.
 
Greninja (Standard)

Pros:
+ Protean is arguerably one of the best ability, both offensively and defensively. Aside from it will give you STAB in all of your damaging moves, predicting your weakness is not easy as long as your opponent doesn't know your move set and/or move pattern.
+ Good speed and passable offense, both ATk ans SpATK. Bulk is also passable.
+ Access to support moves like Mat Block, Haze, Spike, Toxic Spike and Taunt.
+ Diverse movepool. Have access to moves like Water Shuriken, Hydro Pump, Blizzard, Icy Wind, Dark Pulse, etc., and as well as Rock Slide, Gunk Shot, Waterfall, Night Slash, U-Turn, etc., if you want to run a physical set.

Cons:
- Absence of reliable recovery move aside from Rest and Leftover.
- While the move pool might be diverse, it lacks powerful moves like Stone Edge, Earthquake, Psyshock, Sucker Punch, etc.
- None of its stat, aside from Speed, is really impressive.

GRENINJA - Ash-forme

Pros:
+ Impressive offense
+ Six resistences, one immunity
+ Just like Mega-Rayquaza, you can still use items. So, look out for choice user or life orb Ash-Greninja

Cons:
+ Have five weakneses that are common.
+ No gain in bulk
+ Absence of Protean fixes your weakness and hinders you from receiving STAB on other non-water/non-dark type moves.
+ Not breedable; the moves from other generation cannot be learned.
 

BlazingRagnarok

Well-Known Member
To my knowledge they are being tier separately. If BB does end up in Ubers, it will not be able to function because getting that first kill will be exceptionally difficult with all the fatmons (plus Primal Groudon laughs at Greninja). Deo-A exists if you want a fast, frail nuke, and it doesn't need to nab a kill to be a threat and got a new best friend in Tapu Lele.

Honestly, I can't fathom how BB could end up in Ubers. Unless I'm terribly misinformed, there are megas with similar BSTs that are in OU, except that BB requires arguably more difficult hoops to jump through than simply item choice. I don't think the high risk/high reward nature of BB puts it higher on the tier list than megas.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
Honestly, I can't fathom how BB could end up in Ubers. Unless I'm terribly misinformed, there are megas with similar BSTs that are in OU, except that BB requires arguably more difficult hoops to jump through than simply item choice. I don't think the high risk/high reward nature of BB puts it higher on the tier list than megas.

I don't see it happening either, especially seeing that Ash-Greninja is still walled by several pokémon in OU, like Chansey and Tapu Fini, and Lucario and Arcanine can revenge kill it with ExtremeSpeed. Once PokéBank opens up ExtremeSpeed Dragonite and Entei also appear again as threats that can revenge kill it, getting higher priority than Water Shuriken.
 

generic villager #5

Your ad here!
I fully agree with what everyone's saying, I doubt BB Greninja will see Ubers even with several unavailable threats from Gen VI's OU. I'll wager BB Greninja will be prominent in OU, though, due to the stat boost, good coverage, and of course, a boosted Water Shuriken. It's my understanding that BB grants a 2x increase to Water Shuriken, so after STAB you're looking at a priority move between 90 and 225 effective base power. For scale, that's at minimum as strong as a Technician-boosted Mach Punch or Bullet Punch, and stronger than an unboosted Aerilate Quick Attack in this gen or the last. I figure BB Greninja might even fill part of the void left behind by Gale Wings Talonflame, albeit trading consistent damage and prioritized healing for no recoil and neutrality to Stealth Rocks.
 

flashtone

Active Member
Sceptile Leaf Blade : I didn't know that Ash-Greninja could be soft resetted for a good nature, guess I'm stuck with Lonely. I'll just have to be on the lookout for faster mon's and priority users (I'd rather use Protean Greninja anyway)

Karxrida : Greninja having 8 less base points in Attack is "lame"? People will always expect a special Ash-Greninja, so a physical set would be unexpected, which wouldn't be walled as much by Chansey/Blissey and could pivot out with U-Turn against physical walls for at least some chip damage. Thanks for telling me about Z-Crystals not being used up, my mistake.
With the special set, Hydro Pump would be it's best water STAB, but with that 80 accuracy, it'll tend to miss sometimes when you need it to hit. Sure, Aerial Ace has 60 BP, but bypasses the accuracy check, which would be helpful against opponents who want to use evasion for whatever reason and if it's used after Battle Bond activates, powered up by Choice Band and hits super effectively, it's still going to hurt.
I know that the special set is better than the physical one, but base 145 Attack coupled with base 132 Speed is nothing to take lightly, you might not like, but I've done the best with what I've got, if it's "lame" in your eyes, then so be it.

I agree that Ash-Greninja will likely be placed in OU, I don't see it having any reasonable impact on Ubers.
 

Neosonic97

Fastest thing Alive
[QUOTE="generic villager #5]It's my understanding that BB grants a 2x increase to Water Shuriken, so after STAB you're looking at a priority move between 90 and 225 effective base power.[/QUOTE]

Not quite. It only boosts Water Shuriken's Base Power to 20 (So 30 after STAB) but it always hits 3 times. So it's about as strong as an equivalent Scizor Bullet Punch.


Having used Ash-Greninja a fair bit myself, I'll list IKUZEfrog's pros and cons.

Pros:
+Absolute powerhouse. Its attack and special attack are through the roof! Base 145 Attack and Base 153 Special Attack are absolutely phenomenal.
+Fast as hell. Base 132 Speed is nothing to laugh at.
+Water Shuriken's buff from Battle Bond makes it as powerful as Technician Scizor's Bullet Punch. Yowzah. It also means that IKUZEfrog is tough to revenge kill.
+Hits much harder than Proteaninja with Water- and Dark- type moves and, thanks to the attack stat boosts, only hits marginally weaker with its non-STAB Moves.
+Can still use an item.
+Is Ash's strongest Pokemon, ever. No questions asked. It also has an awesome theme song!

[video=youtube;McEOjIEdHjA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McEOjIEdHjA[/video]


Cons:
-It doesn't get any bulkier from normal Greninja. It's still super frail.
-You've got to transform from regular Greninja first.
-No Egg Moves whatsoever. Battle Bond Greninja CANNOT Breed.
-Highly flammable (Yes, I am still salty about Ash losing the Kalos League, sue me. He deserved to win, damn it. ESPECIALLY against Alain and his god-mode Char X).


And a stat analysis to boot...
HP- Base 72: Below Average. Greninja's frail, even in its Ash Form.
Attack- Base 145: Amazing. Even though it's Ash-Greninja's weaker attack stat, Base 145 is still nothing to laugh at, and it's definitely amongst the highest single stats amongst all Alolan Pokemon. It's no Kartana, but it will DEFINITELY be smashing things if it catches them off guard. Its attack stat is the same as that of Mega Lucario, Lando-T, Mega 'Mence and Mega Metagross. Amongst all 'mons, it ranks about 36th, tied with the aforementioned 'mons.
Defense- 67: Mediocre. Greninja sucks at taking hits. Ash-Greninja does not change this.
Special Attack- 153: Amazing. Ash-Greninja's stronger offensive stat, and amongst the highest Special Attack Stats of 'mons obtainable in the Alola Region. It's at bare minimum in the top 5, alongside the likes of Mega Alakazam and Mega Gengar. It's just shy of Mewtwo's, and seventeenth highest in the history of Pokemon.
Special Defense- 71: Below Average. See defense and HP. Ash-Greninja's not meant to be taking hits.
Speed- Base 132: GOTTAGOFAST. Ash-Greninja is, beyond all doubt, amongst the fastest Pokemon obtainable in Pokemon Sun and Moon. Base 132 is an insane amount of speed, reaching 399 at maximum, forcing even the dreaded Scarfchomp to run Speed EVs just to outspeed it (Albeit only 12 speed EVs to avoid a Speed tie). Ash-Greninja is the fifteenth fastest Pokemon, and amongst 'mons found in Sun and Moon, only Pheromosa, Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Alakazam can outspeed it without any outside assistance, making it the fourth fastest Pokemon that can be obtained in Alola. Naturally, this is an amazing speed tier to be in, outspeeding uninvested Scarfchomps, Mega Gengars, Jolteons, Talonflames and all sorts of other threats.
 
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BlazingRagnarok

Well-Known Member
Karxrida : Greninja having 8 less base points in Attack is "lame"? People will always expect a special Ash-Greninja, so a physical set would be unexpected, which wouldn't be walled as much by Chansey/Blissey and could pivot out with U-Turn against physical walls for at least some chip damage. Thanks for telling me about Z-Crystals not being used up, my mistake.
With the special set, Hydro Pump would be it's best water STAB, but with that 80 accuracy, it'll tend to miss sometimes when you need it to hit. Sure, Aerial Ace has 60 BP, but bypasses the accuracy check, which would be helpful against opponents who want to use evasion for whatever reason and if it's used after Battle Bond activates, powered up by Choice Band and hits super effectively, it's still going to hurt.
I know that the special set is better than the physical one, but base 145 Attack coupled with base 132 Speed is nothing to take lightly, you might not like, but I've done the best with what I've got, if it's "lame" in your eyes, then so be it.

You can give all of the excuses you want, but Scyther is the only pokemon in the entire game that would be caught dead using aerial ace in a competitive setting. Any move with a BP lower than 80 bases its competitive viability in its other effects, and, to make a long story short, perfect accuracy simply isn't good enough. Between evasion clauses, the general unpopularity of evasion sets, and the fact that a teammate's defog has better utility make for very few situations in which you'd be happy to run aerial ace over any 100 accuracy move. Relying on BB for aerial ace to be effective puts the card before the horse, since it needs to actually score a KO with its weak moves first.

Its attack stat, for all your uses of rhetorical questions, is indeed lame. For any pokemon to stage a serious offensive presence with an offensive stat in the 80s or 90s, it need something extra, whether it be a boosting move, terrain, weather, its item, its ability, or high BP moves. Actually, scratch that, high BP moves are mandatory for these pokemon. Greninja is working with a 70 BP move and an 80 BP move for STAB. Gyarados only gets away with using waterfall because it has dragon dance and a high attack stat right off the bat. Heck, its mega version has higher base attack, and jolly builds even outrun ash-greninja at +1.

Special/physical surprise factor is overrated in the current meta, especially since most of these kinds of strategies involve mixed sets that throw in a high-power coverage move. Going all-in on an inferior offensive stat simply won't cut it in an era where eviolite chansey isn't half bad at taking physical hits.
 
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HeatEdgeSword

Active Member
Flashtone: Even then, it's better to go mixed rather specialize solely on Physical. Though Low Kick and Gunk Shot aren't available for tutoring in Sun and Moon, so it's currently better for Ash-Greninja to specialize his Special Attack stat instead.

Neosonic97: The only notable Egg move Greninja has is Toxic Spikes, that's it. I'm fairly certain that Ash-Greninja isn't a Pokemon to set up hazard even with his speed (Ash-greninja is always male).

And I don't that's the place to bring that incident up.
 

REMARCABLE

Well-Known Member
Just would like to add to the pros and cons of using Ash-Greninja as opposed to using normal Greninja

Con: At the moment, its movepool is pretty much limited to only Scald/Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/U-Turn//Extrasensory/Grass Knot/Dark Pulse on special sets
Unlike normal Greninja it cannot get egg moves, not so much a problem since the only viable EM it gets is Toxic Spikes, lack of Move Tutors also hurts it because that means no Low Kick, no Gunk Shot, Ash-Greninja now suffers what normal Greninja suffered in the beginning of the Gen 6 metagame, it is now easily countered by a lot of Pokemon, and until Move Tutors are re-added, it will stay that way

It's typing will consistently be Water/Dark, unlike Protean Greninja, Ash-Greninja cannot play mind games and change it's type to get STAB and good type matchup.

Battle Bond VS Protean is a hard sell, Protean is consistent, Battle Bond will only activate when Greninja gets a KO, until then it will stay that way and not benefit from Ash-Greninja and its godly offensive stats


20/31/20/31/20/31. These are the set IVs of any and all Ash-Greninja and while you can change this with Bottle Caps it merely simulates perfect IVs, Ash-Greninja suffers a huge blow from these fixed IVs in that the only hidden power type it gets is Ghost no exceptions.

This means sets with HP Fire for Ferrothorn or Scizor is totally impossible. It will always have HP Ghost.
 

Neosonic97

Fastest thing Alive
Here's my own take on a Greninja set (Albeit ripped straight from Smogon).

IKUZEfrog
Greninja@Choice Specs
Nature: Timid
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 4 Def, 252 Spe, 252 SpA
-Hydro Pump
-Water Shuriken
-Dark Pulse
-U-Turn

This is a Specs Greninja set. In the past, it was unviable, due to Greninja needing Protean's type-switching to prosper. But with the advent of Battle Bond, Greninja can finally run them, utilizing the Bond Phenomenon to fix its power problem. Ash-Greninja hits hard. Very, very hard, and DOESN'T need to be able to switch attacks to prosper. The strategy here is simple: activate Battle Bond, then switch in and out as the situation demands, while using Ash-Greninja's incredible power to crush anything in front of you.

Hydro Pump is the obligatory high-power STAB. If Ash-Greninja outspeeds something (And given how it's the fourth-fastest 'mon in Alola, it most likely will, even Scarfchomps need to invest speed to beat this thing in turn order), chances are it'll be using this. Ash-Greninja's Hydro Pump hits VERY, VERY HARD. Even the Smogon-listed Tapu Fini gets 3HKO'd by Specs IKUZEfrog Hydro Pump:

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Tapu Fini: 119-141 (34.6 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.

Water Shuriken is obligatory on Ash-Greninja as it is quite simply an excellent move, basically being a special version of Scizor's Bullet Punch (and we all know how good THAT is) after transforming. It also stops Mega Aerodactyl and Pheromosa from checking a transformed Ash-Greninja, as it will OHKO both and allow Ash-Greninja to strike them down with priority. It's particularly important against Pheromosa, though.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pheromosa: 354-423 (125 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Dark Pulse is the obligatory second STAB. Next.

U-Turn allows Ash-Greninja to pivot out if you anticipate a switch or don't want to lock yourself into anything at that point.

Timid Nature allows Ash-Greninja to hit its max speed of 399, which allows it to outspeed threats like Uninvested Scarfchomps, Timid Jolteon, Timid Tapu Koko, and so on, allowing it to check them, as none of them appreciate a Specs Hydro Pump to the face coming from that base 153 Special Attack.
 
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Mestorn

Wandering Battler
Favored Partners:

Due to its obscene power Ash-Greninja fits well on most teams once it transforms. The problem is getting to that point. As such Ash-Greninja greatly appreciates slow pivots (U-Turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot, Baton Pass, etc.) that allow it to get in quickly on wounded targets that it can KOand then sweep. Entry Hazards can help reach that point too, though the irony of having a weakened pokémon KOd by entry hazards before Greninja can transform has not escaped me. In theory anti Priority in the form of Psychic terrain and partners like Bruxish and Tsareena to discourage it are appreciated, but A-Greninja sets with Water Shuriken can outspeed most Priority users and KO them without issue (Watch out for Golisopod with First Impression). Clerical support is especially nice on Ash-Greninja as getting paralyzed is often a death sentence for it. As Ash-Greninja has lost many of the handy tools that made Protean Greninja broken (read: it can actually be walled now) having partners that can check Tapu Fini, Primarina (for sets lacking Physical attacks) and Azumarill are greatly appreciated with Grass-types being espcially recommended due to liking the anti-fire support Ash Greninja supplies.
 

ampfire101

Well-Known Member
I fully agree with what everyone's saying, I doubt BB Greninja will see Ubers even with several unavailable threats from Gen VI's OU. I'll wager BB Greninja will be prominent in OU, though, due to the stat boost, good coverage, and of course, a boosted Water Shuriken. It's my understanding that BB grants a 2x increase to Water Shuriken, so after STAB you're looking at a priority move between 90 and 225 effective base power. For scale, that's at minimum as strong as a Technician-boosted Mach Punch or Bullet Punch, and stronger than an unboosted Aerilate Quick Attack in this gen or the last. I figure BB Greninja might even fill part of the void left behind by Gale Wings Talonflame, albeit trading consistent damage and prioritized healing for no recoil and neutrality to Stealth Rocks.

Water shuriken always hits 3 times with ash greninja, so accounting STAB, that's base 90, which is still really good for a priority attack, and given Ash-Greninja's awesome boosted Special attack stat, it works really good as a revenge killer, according to Smogon.
 
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