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Community POTW #028

Discussion in 'POTW Collaboration' started by Serebii, Jun 4, 2017.

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  1. Serebii

    Serebii And, as if by magic, the webmaster appeared... Staff Member Admin

  2. Mestorn

    Mestorn Wandering Battler

    File UB00211182016 Subject: Beauty

    Pheromosa is essentially a watered down Normal Deoxys (despite ironically outspeeding it if just barely), having comparable offenses, speed and defenses. Deoxys wishes it had Beast Boost though, which turns Pheromosa from a Speed Demon into a Speed Deity. Pheromosa is your typical speedy revenge killer - picking off weakened pokémon and tearing apart teams that have been softened up. But Pheromosa is like so many other speedy sweepers: its survival is dependent on outspeeding and KOing its opponent before its opponent can it and KO it back. So Pheromosa's bane are things that can take a hit (and deal one back) and things that take away its speed. Trick Room is a death sentence for Pheromosa, turning it slow as molasses and making it child's play even to what would be considered "speedy" threats normally (though I should note that due to Pheromosa's power, you will often be sacking the pokémon that is setting up Trick Room). Paralysis also brutally tanks Pheromosa's speed, but due to Paralysis' nerf, 2+ Beast Boosts can overcome it. Priority remains Pheromosa's largest weakness -it has no priority moves, so without Psychic Terrain, any priority move it doesn't resist will maim or OHKO it. Scizor OHKO's Pheromosa with attack investment (and if a bulky set, will have enough bulk to take a hit), as does Azumarill (ok a 37.5% to OHKO...), Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack (overkill), Rayquaza's Extremespeed, etc. Any Priority attacker not listed will generally do at least 50% to 75%

    252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 300-355 (106 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 255-301 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 768-904 (271.3 - 319.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Again Pheromosa's performance is reliant on KOing its opponents. If its opponent is not weakened, it will often fail to get the necessary KO and will be maimed or OHKOd in turn (unless going up against a similarly frail opponent). Pheromosa's ideal conditions rely on the opposing team being weakened, all of the tanks being KOd, and a few entry hazards setup to ensure the KO. Many Pheromosaare mixed (having 2 coverage moves in the form of Ice Beam and Poison Jab), and have no way to boost their attack, so Burning Pheromosawill greatly hinder it, and against Fairies all but seals Pheromosa's fate (Pheromosacan only 2HKO Gardevoir with Poison Jab after being Burned). A special set with Quiver Dance is viable however, but again has no solid answer against fairies (as Poison Jab is physical) who generally possess above average SDEF.

    On Pheromosa's without Ice Beam, Flying types are a Significant problem: Ho-oh, Lugia (heck even after Multiscale is broken Ice Beam only 3HKOs), Landorus-T, Pelipper (Defensive), Salamence, Mega-Pinsir etc. can easily OHKO Pheromosa after tanking one of its attacks (Hi Jump Kick regularly does ~40% to anything not Ho-oh and Lugia, so be wary). On Pheromosa's without Poison Jab, Fairies become a fly in the ointment. Tapu Fini, Tapu Koko, Mimikyu with its Disguise still up, Clefable, Azumarill, etc. can tank 2 hits (that are not Poison Jab) and OHKO back.

    4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Pelipper: 136-161 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Pelipper: 138-163 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

    --Best Moves vs Flying w/o Ice Beam--
    252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 172-203 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -1 252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 104-122 (32.6 - 38.2%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pinsir-Mega: 101-120 (37.2 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    --Best Moves vs Fairy w/o Poison Jab--
    4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mimikyu: 209-247 (159.5 - 188.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Mimikyu NEEDs to get in clean so that Disguise can tank the hit).
    252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 172-203 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 108-127 (31.4 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Pheromosa: 468-552 (165.3 - 195%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    For when Pheromosa is playing the revenge kill and U-Turn game, entry hazards become vital for wearing it down, though they are too passive for taking down Pheromosa before it causes too much damage.

    @ b3AVtY bY CH0iCe
    Item: Choice Band
    Ability: Beast Boost
    -Hi Jump Kick
    -Poison Jab
    -Rapid Spin/Bounce
    Nature: Jolly (-SATK, +Speed)
    EVs: 252 ATK/252 Speed/4 HP

    Banded Pheremosa. While the loss of versatility in Life Orb hurts, Pheromosa trades that for a slight increase in durability (making opposing entry hazards less effective against it) and offensive power. It's U-Turns become legitimately scary, enabling Pheromosa to repeatedly chip the opposing team down before going for the finishing sweep with Hi Jump Kick. Poison Jab is for fairies. Rapid Spin is for entry hazard support (ideally Pheromosa's teammates should be handling this, but it is always good to have a backup -this is better on Life Orb sets since after using it, you have to switch out). Bounce is another option. It offers neutral coverage against Ghosts and Poison and while an opponent can use the opportunity to setup, taking a Bounce from Pheromosa hurts and the paralysis chance puts pressure on your opponent.

    Ice Beam, while not listed, is viable as well; though you may want to change the Nature to Naive (-SDEF, +Speed) as special priority moves are rarer (Vacuum Wave and Water Shuriken), and of those Pheromosa resists one and the common user of the other does not like switching into Pheromosa at all.

    Life Orb vs Choice Band Comparison:

    252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa U-turn vs. 232 HP / 180+ Def Venusaur: 156-184 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa U-turn vs. 232 HP / 180+ Def Venusaur: 134-160 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 164-192 (49.1 - 57.4%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 187-222 (55.9 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 300-355 (83.7 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 346-408 (96.6 - 113.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  3. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    I'm not too sure what to think of Pheromosa. I've encountered it a couple of times in the Battle Spot but I've never had any trouble with it, it's just so ridiculously fragile and its STAB combination is commonly resisted in the current metagame. Flying, Fairy, Ghost, and Poison types all resist its STAB combination. It sometimes runs Poison Jab to deal with fairies and Ice Beam to deal with flying types, but there's still plenty out there that Pheromosa has trouble with. Alolan Marowak loves coming in on High Jump Kick and forcing it out to lose all its Beast Boosts (or just KO with Shadow Bone). Alolan Marowak also 4x resists Bug and resists both Poison Jab and Ice Beam too. Mimikyu can come in on High Jump Kick and 4x resists Bug too, and use Disguise to either set up on a switch or set up Trick Room, or try to go for a KO with Play Rough. Lucario can't come in on fighting moves but it can come in on any of its other moves, mega evolve, and KO with Extreme Speed. Toxapex resists all of its moves and can try to go for a Scald burn or stall it out with Toxic. Dragonite doesn't like Ice Beam but can come in on anything else with Multiscale and go for Extreme Speed. Buzzwole can take on physical sets, resisting its STAB combination too, and set up Bulk Up. And this is all just within the Alola Dex. Outside of the Alola Dex there's also stuff like Jellicent and Aegislash that Pheromosa can't really deal with.

    Overall, Pheromosa has good offensive stats but its coverage is fairly lackluster, and unlike Kartana or Xurkitree it doesn't go snowballing as easily with Beast Boost, at least not unless it sacrifices speed to get its Atk or Sp.Atk stat above its Speed stat.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
  4. BillyBobJoe

    BillyBobJoe Active Member

    For double battles:
    Speed Swap - Agility - Focus Blast - Lunge

    This setup focuses on getting your speed up very quickly. Phermosa's Beast Boost raises its speed when it KOs a Pokémon, so high power moves like Focus Blast and Lunge help with that. Phermosa also has equal Attack & Sp. Attack so it can use both physical and special moves effectively. Once Phermosa's speed is as high as you want, use Speed Swap on your partner, preferably a slow & powerful Pokémon, to allow it to sweep.
  5. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    I don't think Speed Swap also swaps the stat boosts, only the base stat numbers. That said, Speed Swap can still be viable in doubles to get powerful pokémon like Mega Garchomp (in sand), Belly Drum Snorlax, and so on to become real threats.
  6. Aduro

    Aduro Mt.BtlMaster

    I think a nice check for Pheromosa is adamant life orb dragonite. Its one of the only pokemon that can OHKO defence uninvested Pheromosa in Battlespot Singles with a priority move. And with Multiscale it can live an ice beam from modest phero. So dragonite can set up a dragon dance and either kill Phero or put it to one HP.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 139-165 (95.2 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

    252+ SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 118-140 (71 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  7. Local Maple

    Local Maple Active Member


    Ah, Pheromosa. Or, as those who plan for it call her: Frailomosa or Failomosa. Among the best proof that if Smogon doesn't want to adapt their current metagame, they ban it. It's true, unprepared teams can be swept by this Pokemon. But there are numerous counters.

    I tried running it before. But I only swept twice; I was demolished every other time after at most 1 Beast Boost. I had run a Special Pheromosa with Ice Beam, Bug Buzz, Z-Focus Blast, and Substitute. Substitute was for anticipating status on bulky Pokemon and giving me breathing room.

    Its defenses are so frail, it's almost not worth putting any effort into them. So most Pheromosa run minimal bulk, emphasizing speed and attack. What are the numerous counters?

    Red Card can stop any Ultra Beast from taking advantage of Beast Boost. In addition, if you sense a Quiver Dance or a Substitute incoming, Whirlwind, Roar, etc. can also ruin Pheromosa's day. Especially when a Sturdy Pokemon like Skarmory is the one sending Pheromosa back.
    Actually, now that I think about it, Sturdy Skarmory may be the best counter to Pheromosa. With access to Spikes and Stealth Rock, Focus Sash variants are toast. With Whirlwind, Pheromosa that have already set up are toast. Also:
    0 Atk Skarmory Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 460-544 (162.5 - 192.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0- Spa Skarmory Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 32 Sp.Def Pheromosa: 288-340 (101.7 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 224 Sp.A Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 200-236 (59.8-70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery​

    Priority status. Prankster Pokemon threaten Pheromosa greatly. Physical Pheromosa? Burn it with Wil-o-Wisp for a shutdown and Focus Sash break. Special or Physical? Thunder Wave will knock down its Speed for Revenge Kills.

    Priority attacks. If you can move before it, you can beat it. For a simple example: a level 75 Fletchling with Gale Wings.
    252+ Gale Wings Fletchling Pluck vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 300-352 (106-124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
    Or a Focus Sash Lycanroc.
    252+ Atk Lycanroc Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 142-168 (50.1-59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

    Choice Scarf. With a Jolly/Timid Nature and max Speed IV/EVs, any Pokemon with at least base 85 Speed will outrun max Speed Pheromosa. 150 Pokemon reach that minimum speed tier, and as long as they have good attack and STAB, or a super-effective attack (preferably Flying), they will win.
    252+Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 307-363 (108.4 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    4 Atk Volbeat Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP 0 Def Pheromosa: 288-340 (101.7 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO​

    If you can set it up early, Tailwind doubles your speed, allowing base 51 Pokemon to outrun it. I probably don't have to list off Pokemon from this range, but here's one that also sets up Tailwind:
    252+ SpA Pelipper Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Pheromosa: 1272-1500 (449.4-530%) -- guaranteed OHKO​

    For Focus Sash Pheromosa variant; and you haven't yet set up passive damage like Spikes, Hail, etc., AND you don't have something to status it; hit it twice. You already saw Lycanroc above. Here's another Pokemon that pulls it off: Normal Gem Unburden Fake Out Play Rough Liepard:
    252 Atk Liepard Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 324-382 (114.4 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO​

    Trick Room. Bring in a Sturdy/Sashed/Bulky Trick Room setter. Now, Pheromosa's speed is its crippling weakness, and any slower Pokemon can KO it safely.
    252+ SpA Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Pheromosa in Sun: 1208-1424 (426.8 - 503.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO​

    Sturdy/Focus Sash. If Pheromosa can't OHKO, it leaves itself open for 1 turn of revenge.
    0 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 316-373 (111.6 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Gigalith Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 396-466 (139.9-164.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO​

    Unaware Pokemon completely ignore any and all Beast Boosts Pheromosa gained (except Speed) AND Quiver Dance Sp.Def buffs. For example, Toxic Recover Pyukumuku and Wish Clefable.
    224 SpA Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Pyukumuku: 132-156 (42 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    224 SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Clefable: 82-97 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Pheromosa: 390-462 (137.8 - 163.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
    Never mind about Skarmory; Clefable may be the best counter to Pheromosa Even Poison Jab, on Adamant, with a Life Orb:
    252+ Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Clefable: 309-367 (78.4 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery​

    As you can see, there are NINE varying strategies to tear down Frailomosa. All so viable, I mixed in non-viable and less-viable Pokemon (Fletcling 25 levels down and Volbeat) and movesets (Dragon Claw Garchomp over Outrage) to prove it.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
  8. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    I think you have a fundamental lack of understanding as to what a counter is.

    A counter must be able to reliably switch into a Pokemon, and then either force it out or KO it before it is KO'ed itself. Most of the things you list are, at best, checks. For clarification purposes, a check can KO or force out a Pokemon if it gets a free switch in (i.e., following a KO), but can't reliably switch in without getting KO'ed in the process.

    One time. And you have to take care that it doesn't get burned by something else in the interim.

    Skarmory can't reliably counter All Out Attacker Phero.

    252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 164-192 (49.1 - 57.4%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)

    Remember; a counter has to be able to switch in and KO or force it out. Skarmory can absolutely check Phero since it won't be 1HKO'ed and can 1HKO Phero pretty effortlessly, but in this case, it wouldn't be a counter.

    Again, checks, not counters. Of the viable Prankster users, Thundurus and Whimsicott don't like switching into Ice Beam, and Whimsicott ESPECIALLY doesn't like switching into Poison Jab. Sableye fares a little better, given its presence also helps put pressure on Phero when it comes to HJK, and it can't be 1HKO'ed by any of Phero's attacks, but it can still take heavy damage (up to 75%) on the switch, so it prefers not to switch in.

    Indeed, Priority is a good way to check Phero... except for when it's getting Psychic Terrain support from Lele, which was a thing. But neither of the things you listed want to switch in, with the former especially if Stealth Rock is up.

    ...I'm sorry, Choice Scarf Volbeat? That's the epitome of useless. If you're for some reason going to try to use Volbeat, at least have it use Prankster Thunder Wave.

    In any event... Choice Scarf users can indeed Check Pheromosa... unless Beast Boost has kicked in. With even a single Beast Boost it suddenly outspeeds every single Choice Scarf user in the game. And in that case, most common Scarf users have a problem, i.e., Garchomp is suddenly wide open to be ice beamed.

    Barring the fact that there are very few viable users of Tailwind, the problem it runs into is that it only lasts for 3 turns, so it's a very small window of opportunity.

    Focus Sash Phero isn't actually that common... Battle Spot notwithstanding. Most things that use Sash only do so in the lead position, because of the aforementioned hazards being an issue. But in the case of Liepard... who, much like Volbeat, you are electing to use uselessly since it is a Prankster Pokemon first and foremost... It can't switch in, so it's just a check.

    Except most users of Trick Room don't want to be setting it up on Phero. At best they an use it to Check Phero...

    252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 253-300 (69.5 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 253-298 (74.8 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 416-494 (121.9 - 144.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    None of the most common Trick Room users can safely switch in. So, once again, at best, some can Check, but not counter.

    This is true, but this is also why most people packed hazard support for Phero. After all, the very same hazards that you mentioned earlier go both ways.

    252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 208-247 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Pyukumuku: 175-207 (55.7 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    ...Checks. Not counters.

    The only thing you've actually proved is that you don't know the difference between a check and a counter.

    You're also neglecting the fact that Phero has five other teammates. If you're having to use something obscure to check, not counter, then yeah, maybe that Pokemon is a problem. It's not always simply a matter of "this Pokemon is overpowered", but rather, if a Pokemon is so centralizing that it excessively restricts team building, that is also a factor.
  9. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    What about Aegislash then?

    252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 26-31 (15.5 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 73-86 (43.7 - 51.4%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
    252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Pheromosa: 196-232 (134.2 - 158.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    As long as Pheromosa doesn't run Hidden Power Ground or something similar Aegislash is going to win that, barring Ice Beam freezing hax. Hidden Power Ground might be a good option if you manage to get it on a Pheromosa to sort-of cover Aegislash, Toxapex, and Alolan Marowak, but it requires sacrificing other coverage. Hidden Power Ghost or Hidden Power Dark also cover Aegislash and Marowak, as well as Jellicent, but sacrifices coverage on Toxapex. Problem for Pheromosa is that it's just not powerful enough to get the KOs it needs with Hidden Power, it's all 2KO at best, and stuff like Aegislash and Marowak has enough power to KO Pheromosa with ease.

    0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Pheromosa: 93-111 (63.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 55-65 (26.5 - 31.4%) -- 19.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Hidden Power Dark vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 99-117 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 27.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    And against Marowak:

    180+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 228-268 (156.1 - 183.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Hidden Power Dark vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Marowak-Alola: 114-135 (68.2 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Marowak-Alola: 42-49 (25.1 - 29.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2017
  10. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Indeed, Aegislash was the premiere Phero counter, but remember that Aegislash was banned before Phero was. It was in an Aegislash-less metagame that Pheromosa really had a chance to run wild. Alola-Wak was still a good answer (in addition to being a good anti-metagame threat in general), but Jellicent was more of a niche counter than anything given it's not that good in the current metagame... actually it hasn't really been good since Gen 5's weather wars went away, but that's beside the point.

    Remember, Phero wasn't banned because it has no counters, because that's not true. It does have counters but they're very specific ones, and Beast Boost on top of its immense base 151 speed tier prevents the traditional revenge killing strategies of just slapping a Scarf on something to check it, because +1 Base 151 is practically unprecedented. If you're not carrying Alola Marowak, Toxapex, etc., you run into a hard time. Even certain would-be counters such as Clefable or Tapu Fini can't reliably switch in out of fear of certain sets, and at the end of the day Phero could also just Pivot out with U-Turn. It was deemed to restrict team building too much due to the need to carry priority that's guaranteed to 1HKO (Ash-Greninja, Mega Pinsir, etc., although Quiver sets could troll Ash-Greninja), or have dedicated hard counter walls.

    Suspect Banning goes beyond "too strong" or "uncounterable". If a Pokemon is too centralizing on the metagame that it restricts team building, that's when they take a look at it for a Suspect test, rather than a Quick Ban. Quick banning is where things are just too strong outright and are quickly banned, but that wasn't the case for Pheromosa.
  11. Archstaraptor

    Archstaraptor devolved.

    Pheromosa may have been banned from some formats, but many will still find it lurking on battle spot. Some thoughts for the matchup in 3v3:

    Ghosts, bugs, poison types are typically capable of matching up well against Pheromosa: They should resist its fighting attacks,and shouldn't care too much about ice beams and poison jabs ( not to do Pheromosa's offensive powers disservice). A ghost type is particularly useful in deterring High Jump Kick usage ( and by that same note, encourages U-turn spam, which deals roughly half HJK damage on a neutral hit).

    Concerning its ridiculous speed(Priority,choice scarf, trick room):
    Preparing a pokemon especially to outspeed pheromosa in any way is usually wasted effort: common choice scarf mons are outsped and knocked out by pheromosa after it gains a speed boost through its ability or through its own choice scarf (yes, people run that), and standard speed boosts are difficult to obtain reliably, outside of protect and the speed boost ability (off the top of my head).
    Priority is of course an effective option,but psychic terrain eliminates that option entirely,so you should have other measures in place.
    Trick room setup is devastating by definition for this super fast,super fragile sweeper,and you can set it up with any mon at any time during the match,to prevent pheromosa switching in over those following 4 turns.If it does,easy kill.

    Or just take a gamble with protect(!):
    This is something you could opt for to prevent pheromosa minisweeps. Should you run a pokemon threatened by HJK (i.e. does not directly answer pheromosa), protect is worthy consideration to inflict 50% damage for free and scare the opponent into using the move more cautiously.Note that you beat phero 50% of the time if said phero opts to HJK twice in a row. This is - obviously - an inconsistent option,but worth noting since protect can be used by anything aside from typical users (such as celesteela / guts abusers / speed boost users) to inflict surprise passive damage. Your opponent shouldn't be able to see this coming.

    So in short: pheromosa should be handled differently to other offensive threats - it outpaces the meta,so trying to find something that outspeeds is not worth the effort. Under trick room,however, it's useless, and whilst its coverage options are good for the current meta, they don't cover eveything. Pick one of the three primary types above, then ensure its secondary types don't allow it to take neutral hits from at least fighting stab,but add no weakness to ice beam or poison jab.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  12. Alita54

    Alita54 Active Member

    How was paralysis nerfed this generation?
  13. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    It's now only a 50% speed drop instead of 75%.
  14. hidood5th

    hidood5th Roberto Del Fuego

    Pheromosa is the answer to the question: "How can we get Deoxys-N into OU?". Spoiler Alert: It didn't last long. Statswise its almost identical, sporting dual base 137 offenses alongside base 151 speed, and with near perfect coverage in U-Turn, High Jump Kick, and Ice Beam, it may seem impossible to wall, and if supported by Tapu Lele, impossible to revenge kill. However, like Deoxys-N, Pheromosa has very exploitable weaknesses. It's defenses are nonexistent, meaning any set not running Sash gets eviscerated by any decent neutral hit. It also lacks priority of it's own, meaning without the support of Psychic Terrain, it can get revenge killed by most priority users with relative ease. Finally, while it's coverage may be great, certain pokemon like Toxapex and Marowak-A wall it with ease, both of which are viable otherwise.
  15. ger9119

    ger9119 Well-Known Member

    This thing plus certain terrains made it very broken whoever thinks otherwise clearly wasn't playing enough of the metagame.

    Pheromosa @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Beast Boost
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Naughty Nature
    - High Jump Kick
    - Poison Jab
    - Ice Beam
    - Protect/U-turn
  16. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    Depends on which metagame you're talking about. It only reached 18th place of most used pokémon in the May competition Masters (which is 4v4 doubles Alola Dex only). Gyarados, Gigalith, Torkoal, Snorlax, Garchomp, Porygon2, Mimikyu, Alolan Marowak, Kartana, Celesteela, Arcanine, Tapu Fini, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Nihilego, Alolan Muk, and Alolan Ninetales were all used more. That said, 42.5% ran Focus Sash, 26.3% ran Fightium Z, and 14.2% ran Life Orb. 31.7% ran a Naughty nature, as opposed to a 15.9% that ran a Naive nature. It suffers much more in doubles than in singles because setting up Trick Room tends to be easier and more devastating in doubles, for example with Follow Me or Fake Out support, and no Psychic Terrain is going to save Pheromosa if Trick Room is active. Pheromosa's reliance on High Jump Kick (72.4% ran High Jump Kick as opposed to 17.8% running Focus Blast) also doesn't work as well in doubles where half of the pokémon are running Protect.
  17. EKZ1505

    EKZ1505 VGC Master

    And just to add on, Intimidate is MUCH more common in VGC/doubles than any singles format, so that limits Pheromosa's physical/mixed sets' power.
  18. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    That's definitely true. Intimidate is a big reason why Landorus-Therian and Arcanine are so common in doubles. I'm actually surprised Salamence appeared so little in the last tournament, it didn't even make it to the top 30. Togedemaru was used more than Salamence, as Fake Out support with Lightningrod and Encore.
  19. EKZ1505

    EKZ1505 VGC Master

    Tapu Fini. That's the main reason. Misty Terrain halving dragon damage to Pokémon on the ground limits Mence's only viable STAB as a non-mega (unless you pair Fly with the z move, which does happen).
    Mence was very common at the start of VGC17 for Intimidate support and then strong dragon moves with Z-Draco/Specs/Scarf (with good coverage with fire moves)...until everyone discovered Fini wasn't so bad despite the terrain not boosting its moves lol

    And just to stay on topic, Pheromosa has seen some usage (especially after Cybertron featured it a while back I think) with the poison z-move to specifically OHKO any of the Tapus and get a quick beast boost (typically attack in VGC).
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2017
  20. ampfire101

    ampfire101 Well-Known Member

    Then again, Cybertron used it on a best of one kind of team just for fun. Someone who managed to use it properly is my good friend Ashton Cox to win the LATAM International Championships. This plus Nihilego has become a pretty good answer to the common AFK+P2Giga+Electric team running around these days. While Sash was more used during the winter, people have found that a Z-Crystal attached is a better option. Whether you need a physical or special set on this depends on what you're looking for in VGC. If you need a counter to Tapus, definitely go physical because Poison Jab will be necessary. Just be wary of Intimidate, though non-bulky Arcanine will typically go down to a -1 Z-High Jump Kick anyway without Protect. Special is used if you have ample answers to Tapus, again Nihilego works here, with Z-Focus Blast still being able to OHKO Porygon2. Ice Beam will eradicate Salamence and non-AV Garchomp with ease (heck people even use Ice Beam on the physical set). Naughty/Mild Nature is my personal favorite nature on Pheromosa to better take ExtremeSpeed from Arcanine. This also grants Pheromosa a boost in either Atk or SpA as they will be higher than its Speed. While this gives P2 a SpA Download boost, let's face it, P2 does not want to be in front of this at all. A really scary offensive core I have tried is Tapu Lele, Pheromosa, and Nihilego (I gave it the name "Girls' Night Out"), with Lele blocking priority for Nihilego and Pheromosa (which is seen in singles as well). For this core, you'll need a Fire type in either Marowak-A or Arcanine to better handle Metagross. You can also use a Metagross of your own to handle Mimikyu by leading Lele Metagross. For the last slot, you'll need some bulk and maybe a mon that works well under Trick Room. Gastrodon isn't a bad option for this, as Pheromosa and Nihilego handle Bulu and Kartana pretty well. Anyway, I haven't experimented enough with it but the Girls' Night Out core I feel uses Pheromosa to great success. If you run Marowak-A with the core, P2 and bulky Gyarados are decent partners as the heavy damage from Thick Club boosted attacks ensures your opponent can't freely set up TR and gives you options for a TR sweep of your own. LightningRod also redirects Electric Type attacks from Gyarados, leaving Gyarados free to Dragon Dance.
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
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