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Community POTW #033

Discussion in 'POTW Collaboration' started by Serebii, Jul 9, 2017.

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  1. Serebii

    Serebii And, as if by magic, the webmaster appeared... Staff Member Admin

  2. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    Marshadow @ Marshadium Z
    Jolly nature
    252 Atk, 252 Speed, 4 Def
    -Bulk Up
    -Spectral Thief
    -Drain Punch
    -Rock Tomb / Poison Jab

    Bulk Up with Drain Punch should attempt to get some sort of bulk in this little thing and actually hit hard. Spectral Thief handles stat boosters and is your strongest attack, especially with the Z-move. Rock Tomb gets a Technician boost and OHKO's Ho-Oh, who otherwise completely walks over you kills with Brave Bird. It's too bad you don't get Earthquake, Primal Groudon just overpowers you completely, and to a lesser extent, so does Zekrom. Xerneas is also troublesome, it only has a chance to get 2KOd by Poison Jab and easily KOs with Moonblast. And that's hard-counters, there's also stuff that can revenge kill you. Mewtwo outruns you and kills with Psystrike. Deoxys also outruns and can use Psycho Boost or a similar move for a KO. Lugia doesn't like taking Soul-Stealing 7-star Strike, which KOs if Multiscale is broken, but it can fight back with Aeroblast for huge damage. Lugia can also set up Reflect and then stall it out with Recover.

    One the good sides, Marshadow OHKOs Solgaleo with Soul-Stealing 7-star Strike, and if Solgaleo tried to use Z-Splash while you switched in you don't even need the Z-move, you can then go to +3 immediately with Spectral Thief and KO at the same time, then try to go for a sweep. Be warned however, if Solgaleo goes for Zen Headbutt instead you're gone. Marshadow can also check Coil Zygarde by stealing its Coil boosts with Spectral Thief. Marshadow has an amazing type combination which gives it perfect neutral coverage with its STAB moves, although it unfortunately also gives it several common weaknesses like Flying, Ghost, and Psychic. It's fairly difficult to switch in on Marshadow, a lot of stuff fears a 2KO if they switch in on the wrong move. Drain Punch 2KOs Normal Arceus for instance, and you outspeed (Arceus can't use Extreme Speed against Marshadow). Drain Punch also 2KOs Dialga, although Dialga has a chance to OHKO with Draco Meteor even without an item boost. Palkia has a chance of getting KOd by Soul-Stealing 7-star Strike and a chance of a 2KO from Spectral Thief, although if it carries an item like Life Orb it can OHKO back with Hydro Pump or Spacial Rend. Lunala can't switch in on Spectral Thief, but if Lunala holds a Scarf it can revenge kill it or switch in on a Fighting move.

    This is all still theoretical, the thing isn't even out. I'm wondering how it'll do.

    It has some other options. Shadow Sneak gets a Technician boost and can be used as priority to beat Scarf Lunala, or destroy Deoxys. It can also 2KO Mewtwo. Close Combat hits significantly harder than Drain Punch and is a viable alternative. Force Palm is a bit stronger than Drain Punch too and can cause paralysis, which is also a psychological barrier for Mewtwo and Deoxys to switch into your fighting move.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  3. Aduro

    Aduro Mt.BtlMaster

    Man base 125 Attack technician shadow sneak? I'm gonna have a lot of fun with... aaaaaaand they banned it from OU.

    Still Marshadow is good enough to actually make an impact up there.
    Its speed tier is fantastic. There are a lot of things with base 110-120 speed in ubers and Marshadow outspeeds them. Arceus, Greninja, Mega Salamence etc. And some of the things that outspeed it really don't want a shadow sneak, like offensive deoxys, Mewtwo Y and Mega Gengar.
    Its defensive typing is alright for a sweeper. Some of its weaknesses are quite common in ubers, but at least psychic types can't switch into it.
    Potentially outspeeding EKiller Arceus while being immune to extreme speed is a good niche.
    Max attack Jolly Marshadow can also almost always 2HKO Mega Mewtwo Y (although obviously its not living a psystrike). And a banded set has about a 50/50 chance to OHKO Mega Mewto Y with shadow sneak after stealth rock damage.

    Speaking of choice band

    Marshadow @ Choice Band
    Ability: Adamant
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Close Combat
    - Rock Tomb
    - Drain Punch/Pursuit/Hidden Power Ice

    This is the set I've been working with. Rock tomb covers its flying weaknesses pretty well or slows down whatever switches in. Drain Punch provides longevity, especially if its lucky enough to hit a chansey or a mega kangaskhan. Shadow Sneak is great for dealing with offensive psychic types like Lunala, Deoxys and weakened Mega Mewto Ys that are worried about shadow sneak. Hidden power Ice on the other hand makes Marshadow a nice way to 2HKO regular rayquaza even with no investment. It can also run Hidden Power Ice to 2HKO Landorus therian (assuming the Landorus isn't assault vest or heavily invested in HP).
  4. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    Wouldn't Ice Punch be preferable over Hidden Power? It has way more physical attack, especially on an Adamant Choice Band set. I also think Spectral Thief should always be an option. It allows Marshadow to revenge kill Z-Splash Solgaleo as long as Solgaleo lacks Flame Charge boosts, as well as check Coil Zygarde (it can switch in after Zygarde made a KO or when it Rests), and revenge kill Swords Dance (Mega) Rayquaza.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  5. TheIceCream

    TheIceCream User of Ultra Beasts

    Marshadow is the new mythical Pokemon of Generation 7. And like many of the new pokemon, it shows some unique traits. Having a very wide movepool and a unique typing while also having the stats to back it up. Gamefreak even decided to give it its own Z-Crystal so it could have its own special Z-Move: Soul-Stealing-7-Star-Strike. It has a few downsides to it though but overall, Marshadow is a solid Pokemon.

    + 125 Attack and Speed leaves Marshadow hitting hard and fast
    + Ghost/Fighting is a very Interesting type to use
    + Marshadow's movepool is very large consisting of moves such as Spectral Thief, Close Combat, The elemental Punches, Shadow Sneak, the list goes on!
    + It has its own Z-Move, that can deal tonnes of damage
    + Soul-Stealing-7-Star-Strike sounds really menacing

    - Marshadow doesn't have the best bulk in the world. 90/80/90 isn't terrible, but also isn't amazing. It also doesn't help that Close Combat reduces your defenses so this makes Marshadow even Frailer
    - Marshadow has 90 Special Attack despite learning almost no Special Moves
    - Ghost/Fighting does leave Marshadow with a few weaknesses that are fairly common
    - For most countries, Marshadow is currently unavailable.

    Technician: Power's up moves with a Base Power of 60 or less. It's Marshadow's only ability and normally a very good one. Unfortunately, Marshadow doesn't get as many moves as other Pokemon with this ability with only having a few such as Shadow Sneak or Force Palm. But it can still help Marshadow in the long run.

    Gimme dem stats!
    - Spectral Thief
    - Close Combat
    - Ice Punch/Thunder Punch
    - Shadow Sneak
    Item: Marshadium Z
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 252 Attack, 252 Speed, 4 Defense
    Nature: Jolly

    Spectral Thief and Close Combat are Marshadow's main offences, allowing it to secure KOs, Ice Punch helps deal with dragons such as Salamence whereas Thunder Punch helps against Bulky Water Types such as Suicune. Shadow Sneak is there for priority, while also getting a technician boost and the Marshadium Z allows Marshadow to use Soul-Stealing-7-Star Strike. The EVs and nature allow Marshadow to have max power output and to outspeed Pokemon at Base 125 speed if they don't have a speed-boosting nature as well.

    Other Options[/U][/B]
    - Drain Punch could be used to heal Marshadow and it doesn't have the defense drops of Close Combat but the power drop is recognizable.
    - Feint could be used to hit through protect and it gets a technician boost but it is very weak compared to shadow sneak.
    - Fire Punch can OHKO Mega Scizor but is otherwise inferior to Close Combat.
    - Force Palm gets a technician boost and it has a good chance of paralyzing the opponent but Close Combat is still more powerful.

    Counters: Marshadow doesn't have a tier yet, but it may run into a fair few problems. In Uber, Mega Salamence destroys Marshadow not carrying Ice punch with its STAB Aerilated attacks, Primal Groudon shrugs off Marshadow's STABs and KOs Marshadow with a Precipice Blades and while Mega Mewtwo Y cannot take a Spectral Thief, it can outspeed and OHKO Marshadow with a Psychic. In OU, Marshadow also has a few problems, Tapu Fini fairs fairly well without Thunder Punch, Mega Sableye is immune to Close Combat and can take a Spectral Thief while burning Marshadow with a Will-O-Wisp and there's Rotom W who can also burn Marshadow while whittling Marshadow down with its STAB moves.
  6. Djura

    Djura 99% chance to hit

    Keep in mind that Marshadow is already quickbanned from OU. And rightfully so.
  7. Aduro

    Aduro Mt.BtlMaster

    HP Ice is there for Landoris-T specifically, so it benefits more from not being intimidated than it does from psysical investment and a band. Also, if you run Lonely or Naughty nature, Marshadow will OHKO Landorus with rocks or have a 1/3 chance to OHKO it without rocks. Even banded and adamant, Marshadow isn't OHKOing Lando with Ice Punch after an intimidate.
    0 SpA Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 288-340 (90.2 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    -1 252+ Atk Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 256-304 (80.2 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  8. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    You're forgetting to add the Choice Band to the calculations, which cancels out the Intimidate drop.
    -1 252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 184-220 (111.5 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    That's for Jolly Marshadow.
    Meanwhile for a Hasty or Naive nature:
    0 SpA Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 152-180 (92.1 - 109%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

    As for my Bulk Up set, here's an interesting tidbit. If Marshadow sets up Bulk up while Primal Groudon switches in:
    +1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Primal Groudon: 160-190 (77.2 - 91.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    And Groudon can only KO with a critical hit:
    252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Marshadow: 115-136 (69.6 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  9. generic villager #5

    generic villager #5 Your ad here!

    Let's talk some checks and counters. Unfortunately for Marshadow, it's going Ubers, so while its Speed, Attack, and movepool are all great, it will still have to go toe-to-toe with some serious threats.

    The first thing that may have popped into your mind may well have been Xerneas. Even with Stealth Rocks, Xerneas has a pretty good chance to survive an unboosted Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike from Marshadow, and it easily OHKOs with a Moonblast, boosted or no. However, an unboosted Xerneas cannot take a turn to boost while being hit by Marshadow's unique Z-move without getting KO'd by Shadow Sneak. If Marshadow is running a Choice Band, Even a Poison Jab will only score a 2HKO, so don't even try it. Xerneas's opposite, Yveltal, is also a great option, able to survive any hit from Marshadow (including Rock Tomb, Ice Punch, and HP Ice) and scoring some healing with a OHKO Oblivion Wing. In a pinch, Yveltal also has a small chance to OHKO with Sucker Punch if Marshadow is suffering from Close Combat recoil.

    While Xerneas and Yveltal may be the best counters, there are still other ways to frustrate Marshadow. Mega Mewtwo Y can outspeed and OHKO non-Choice Band Marshadow while surviving a Shadow Sneak, although a Choice Band will turn that Shadow Sneak into a guaranteed OHKO. Mega Mewtwo X fares a bit better, provided it carries the rarely-seen Zen Headbutt; it can survive a Choice Band Shadow Sneak most of the time. Ho-oh easily survives any of Marshadow's moves barring Rock Tomb, and only a Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike really guarantees a 2HKO, while Ho-oh gets an easy OHKO with Brave Bird, taking relatively little recoil. Arceus-Fairy doesn't mind most of Marshadow's moves, and is guaranteed a OHKO with Judgement. Shaymin-Sky can outspeed and OHKO with an Air Slash, although it can't easily switch in and will be OHKO itself by any super-effective attacks Marshadow may carry.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  10. Rocxidi

    Rocxidi ס₪₪₪§€ΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞ7

    Choice Band is only one of the many sets Marshadow can run. Also remember that many Landorus Therian sets will have maxed out HP and Defense, making Choice Band even weaker. On the other hand, a Life Orb set will provide almost as much damage as a Choice Band while allowing you to freely select from your many useful moves and hitting harder with Hidden Power Ice.

    Surprised no one has mentioned Swagger sets yet.

    Marshadow @ Marshadium Z
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Swagger
    - Substitute
    - Spectral Theif
    - Close Combat

    This is the second closest thing Marshadow has to a Swords Dance set, the first being Z-Bulk Up. Swagger will allow you to steal your opponents attack boost with Spectral Theif, or force your opponent out and set up a free Substitute. The unresisted coverage from Spectral Theif and Close Combat along with the power from Soul Stealing Seven Star Strike will allow you to obliterate practically anything granted you can steal your opponents attack.
  11. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    I was responding specifically to Aduro who suggested Hidden Power Ice on a Choice Band set. I'm not sure what kind of distributions Landorus runs outside of Battle Spot, the ones I've run into at the Battle Spot tend to max out attack and a lot of speed, they get killed in a single hit by Marowak's Flare Blitz for instance if I avoid Intimidate. They could run different in environments where stuff like Groudon is allowed. And of course Hidden Power Ice becomes a lot more viable under Life Orb than under Choice Band against Landorus that invest completely in physical bulk.

    0 SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 198-234 (101 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    -1 252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 114-135 (58.1 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    And against offensive Landorus

    0 SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 198-234 (120.7 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    -1 252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-T: 161-192 (98.1 - 117%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

    It's better against Landorus and Salamence on a Life Orb set, but Ice Punch still beats it against Rayquaza. Spectral Thief outdamages Hidden Power Ice against Rayquaza too.

    252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 109-130 (60.2 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 83-99 (45.8 - 54.6%) -- 41.4% chance to 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Rayquaza: 99-117 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
  12. HeatEdgeSword

    HeatEdgeSword Member

    This is Marshadow's Doubles OU set.

    Eevees: 4 HP, 252 Attack, 252 Speed or 252 Attack, 4 Sp.Attack, 252 Speed
    Nature: Jolly/Naive
    Ability: Technician
    Item: Life Orb/Marshadium Z

    - Protect
    - Shadow Sneak/Hidden Power Ice
    - Spectral Thief
    - Close Combat

    Protect is crucial to this format. Nuff said.
    Shadow Sneak enables Marshadow to strike first before the opponent could. It can dish out a sizable damage thanks to Technician.
    Hidden Power Ice KO Mega Salamence and Landorus even with barely any investment to its Special Attack thanks to Technician.
    Spectral Thief is the main appeal of Marshadow as it steals any stat boost from the opponent and applies them to itself.
    Close Combat hits extremely hard, though the move Marshadow's defense and special defense after it hits.
    Life Orb boosts its power at the cost of its HP.
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