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Community POTW #045

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Serebii

And, as if by magic, the webmaster appeared...
Staff member
Admin
Time for the next Pokémon and this week we have a classic

34.png


It's the Poison/Ground Pokémon, Nidoking

https://www.serebii.net/pokedex-sm/034.shtml

Go nuts
 

Mestorn

Wandering Battler
All hail the king! No seriously, while Slaking is the only king that smokes Nidoking is base stats, Nidoking is such a potent and varied threat that it can hit pretty much the entire game for Super Effective damage (though not on one set). And while it does not possess the earth breaking power of Darminatan, the Sheer Force + Life Orb still stings and can punch holes in all but the absolute bulkiest of walls.

A Special King
Nidoking
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
-Ice Beam
-Thunderbolt
-Earth Power
-Sludge Bomb/Sludge Wave
Nature: Modest (+SATK, -ATK) or Timid (+SPD, -ATK)
EVs: 252 SATK/252 SPD/4 HP

Standard Nidoking/Nidoqueen set. Their wide and varied movepools makes it easy to abuse Sheer Force on the special side. BoltBeam Combo as always offers incredible coverage hits every Pokémon in the game for neutral barring the Magnemite Line, Togedemaru, Volt Absorb Chinchou and Lanturn, who are all wrecked by a STAB LO Sheer Force Earth Power. Thunderbolt and Ice Beam also hit many key threats like Garchomp, Salamence, Gyarados, Dragonite, Greninja, Hawlucha, Lati@s, Landorus, Pelipper, Skarmory, Zygarde and Zapdos. Earth Power is a great Special Ground STAB that wrecks most Steel and Rock types who tend to prioritize DEF over SDEF. Final STAB move is personal preference. A poison STAB valuable given the current state of the game, hitting Clefable, the Tapus and Gardevoir for major damage. Sludge Wave is preferred in most cases. 5 higher base power, and it is a spread move in doubles making it very attractive. However, if you cannot build your team to accommodate that, Sludge Bomb may be preferable. It is single target which ignores spread damage reduction that Sludge Wave has in doubles, but is no selled by Pokémon with Bulletproof (admittedly both possessors of the ability are still hit hard by Ice Beam).

Rhino Rampage
Nidoking
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
-Poison Jab
-Earthquake
-Rock Slide/Ice Punch/Thunder Punch
-Sucker Punch/Megahorn/Ice Punch/Thunder Punch
Nature: Adamant (+ATK, -SATK) or Jolly (+SPD, -SATK)
EVs: 252 ATK/252 SPD/4 HP

Poison Jab is the only STAB it has that is viable for abusing LO Sheer Force. STAB Earthquake hurts, shame it doesn't get the Sheer Force boost (the only physical Ground move that gets it is Bone Club). Rock Slide gets the Sheer Force Boost, and synergizes well with Earthquake, hitting most fliers that are immune to it. Last move is up for preference. Sucker Punch is great, hitting the psychic types that threaten Nidoking with priority, but can be played around with (since it requires the opponent to attack). Megahorn also hits psychics and cannot be played around, but lacks priority and is somewhat redundant with Poison regarding coverage. If you have ORAS, you can use tutors to give Nidoking the elemental punches. These give it the BoltBeam combo in physical form, and the power is comparable to the special set, and is generally preferred when available.

Favored Partners
While Nidoking greatly appreciates the slow down that has occurred between generations in the Metagame, the fact that it sits at an odd base 85 speed means that it is reliably outsped in and out of Trick Room, so speed support is recommended like usual. Tailwind users like Pelipper/Aerodactyl appreciate the anti-electric/rock coverage Nidoking offers, while the Bug types that get sticky web, enjoy the STAB ground attacks that Nidoking can use to dispatch rogue Fire and Rock types. U-Turn Pokémon can get Nidoking in Safely and like doing so, due to its ability to KO a wide range of threats. All in All Nidoking is fairly splashable thanks to its incredible coverage and decent power. Ferrothorn is a good partner for Nidoking, reisting or taking neutral from all of its weaknesses and easily dispatching Opposing waters and slowing the competition down with Thunder Wave. It in return enjoys Nidokings' effectiveness at KOing Fire types (and resisting the Fighting attacks it is weak to).
 

dementeddurian

Love Ball Lover
Since when did Nidoking learn Bone Club? If you're looking for a Ground STAB to use in conjunction with Sheer Force, you should be using Drill Run. It's available via ORAS move tutors.
 

EKZ1505

Well-Known Member
Since when did Nidoking learn Bone Club? If you're looking for a Ground STAB to use in conjunction with Sheer Force, you should be using Drill Run. It's available via ORAS move tutors.

I don't think Mestorn was saying Nidoking learns Bone Club, just that it is the only physical ground move to receive the boost, as Drill Run does not receive the Sheer Force boost anyway unfortunately.
 

dementeddurian

Love Ball Lover
Why not? It has a secondary effect. It boosts critical-hit ratio. And Bulldoze gets a bonus as well, so Bone Club isn't exclusive in that regard.
 

EKZ1505

Well-Known Member
Why not? It has a secondary effect. It boosts critical-hit ratio. And Bulldoze gets a bonus as well, so Bone Club isn't exclusive in that regard.

https://www.serebii.net/abilitydex/sheerforce.shtml

Sheer Force doesn't affect moves with boosted critical hit ratios, but you are correct about Bulldoze (though the only reason to run it in doubles is for the speed drops, so it's completely pointless for Nidoking since Bulldoze is weaker than both EQ and Drill Run anyway, even with the boost).
 
Nidoking

Abilities
Poison Point: 30% chance of poisoning opponents when they use a contact move. Rather subpar and situational ability at best, and completely outclassed by Sheer Force
Rivalry: Raises move power by 25% if opponent is the same gender and lowers it by 25% if opponent is opposite gender. Not affected by genderless pokemon. This is even more situational than poison point, and can really hurt Nidoking more than it helps. Plus, it's also outclassed by Sheer Force
Sheer Force: Increases power of moves with secondary effects by 30%, but removes the effects. Life Orb recoil is ignored when a move that is affected by Sheer Force is used. Now we're talking. Nidoking has a plethora of moves that get boosted by sheer force, and when holding a life orb, Nidoking becomes a fantastic wallbreaker with amazing coverage.

Checks and Counters
Nidoking's speed tier is nice for outspeeding the group of base 80's, but allows it to get outsped by the many pokemon that sit at 90 or above. Nidoking's bulk is also below average, so faster pokemon can easily KO it with strong supereffective attacks. Faster psychic, ground and water types specifically really threaten Nidoking. Latias, Alakazam, Krookodile and Starmie can all OHKO Nidoking with their powerful STAB attacks and only have to look out for rare Choice Scarf or Sucker Punch variants of Nidoking. While it is hard to switch in to Nidoking, many special walls can do the trick. Blissey and Porygon 2 take nothing from Nidoking's special attacks but have to watch out for Superpower and the uncommon physical set. Cresselia is the most effective counter to Nidoking, however. Cresselia can take any attack Nidoking has to throw at it and can retaliate with a STAB Psychic or Psyshock or heal off the damage using Moonlight. In more inclusive tiers, Nidoking has an even harder time because the number of Pokemon that can take a hit or KO it increases greatly. Tapu Lele, Mega Medicham, Latios, Landorus-T, Kyurem-B, Excadrill, etc. etc. The idea to dealing with Nidoking really is to just hit it with a strong supereffective attack. It has a wide variety of coverage to watch out for, but if you can safely get a pokemon in, you will have an easy time dealing with it.
 

Alita54

Well-Known Member
https://www.serebii.net/abilitydex/sheerforce.shtml

Sheer Force doesn't affect moves with boosted critical hit ratios, but you are correct about Bulldoze (though the only reason to run it in doubles is for the speed drops, so it's completely pointless for Nidoking since Bulldoze is weaker than both EQ and Drill Run anyway, even with the boost).

I'm pretty confident after both a sheer force and life orb boost bulldoze should be hitting harder than drill run at least.
 

EKZ1505

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty confident after both a sheer force and life orb boost bulldoze should be hitting harder than drill run at least.

No, it isn't...I'm not sure why this comparison is relevant anyway, but:

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Emboar: 439-517 (103.5 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Emboar: 447-530 (105.4 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Nidoking Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Emboar: 562-663 (132.5 - 156.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

MetalSonic

Orderan' Defendan'
Nidoking excels at special sets mostly. All special is the best set as these moves have the most powerful potential because of the ability boost and cause, well, the base power of the moves are simply a lot higher than the physical counter parts. This is especially apparent on Nido, who must at least be able to 2HKO the things it making an attempt to quickly take down. Though, there's an exception with mixed sets!

The only other sets of note is maybe an offensive rocking king with Stealth Rock if its not all-out attacking. Scarf could be cool to, to catch mons off guard but you really miss the boost from LO sometimes. Superpower is also noteworthy purely to maul Blissey. Sucker could be fun to, but the coverage is phenomenal on Nido and sorely missed when you could very well be hitting most things for SE coverage. The normal set is usually Earth Power/Sludge Wave/Flamethrower/Ice Beam. Even Substitute could be used simply because it eases the prediction and Nido's so fond of forcin stuff out so a sub would be easy to get. Because Nidoking specializes in coverage, it can switch a move up or so for a specific need that the team may need handled. I.E; Shadow Ball for Psychics, T-Bolt for bulky waters. Really, it all depends on your team in regards to what your Nido is running!

The main thing holding Nido back from glory is an average speed stat and bulk. So it does need pivots and double switches to get it in safely. It excels at tearing down bulkier teams, but finds itself easily forced out against offensive teams. Its defenses, while not bad, aren't particularly good. It can probably take an unboosted neutral STAB hit from most things, but that's about it. Don't expect it to live another! It even has some neat defensive utility with its sick typing. Takin in T-Spikes and being immune to paralysis inducing electric moves is always appreciated.

Yeah, Nido's a pretty powerful dude. Not an easy thing to switch into unless you've got a dedicated special wall or an AV thingy. Even then, it's SE coverage may send it packin to!

Also, I think its based off a straight up mutated bunny! That's a cool idea! It hold a special place it many trainers hearts as its the first truly beastly-looking Pokemon you could get your hands on in R/B/Y. -w-
 
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BillyBobJoe

Well-Known Member
I feel that it makes more sense for Nidoking to not use a Choice item due to its massive coverage. I have an unorthodox set idea:

Poison King:
Ability: Poison Point
Item: Life Orb/Poison Barb
-Poison Jab
-Venoshock
-Earthquake
-Sludge Bomb/Ice Beam

This set goes all out on using the Poison status. The Life Orb is a necessity to make up for the lack of Sheer Force but Pouson Barb can be used as a substitute. Each move is kind of self explanatory. Earthquake is to deal with other Poisons or Steel types and Ice Beam is for Grounds.
 

Neosonic97

Fastest thing Alive
I feel that it makes more sense for Nidoking to not use a Choice item due to its massive coverage. I have an unorthodox set idea:

Poison King:
Ability: Poison Point
Item: Life Orb/Poison Barb
-Poison Jab
-Venoshock
-Earthquake
-Sludge Bomb/Ice Beam

This set goes all out on using the Poison status. The Life Orb is a necessity to make up for the lack of Sheer Force but Pouson Barb can be used as a substitute. Each move is kind of self explanatory. Earthquake is to deal with other Poisons or Steel types and Ice Beam is for Grounds.

That set really sucks. No offense. Not only is it completely helpless against Special Attackers who won't ever trigger Poison Point (Poison Jab's poison chance is far too unreliable), but Venoshock isn't even that strong. Sheer Force Boosted Sludge Wave (Nidoking's best Poison STAB) is only marginally weaker and doesn't rely on raw luck to hit hard, not to mention it doesn't cut into Nidoking's Longevity. On top of this, you're going too much into mix, and that hampers Nidoking's power even further. Why even bother with Earthquake? Just use Earth Power instead so Nidoking can invest EVs into its special attack, and just put Sludge Bomb over Poison Jab, as they both have the same chance of poisoning a foe, but Sludge Bomb is actually more powerful.

Here are the calcs to prove that a Venoshock Set with Poison Point simply isn't worth it:

First off, by sacrificing Sheer Force, Nidoking loses its ability to reliably OHKO Entei on the switch-in:
252 SpA Life Orb Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Entei: 361-429 (97.3 - 115.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

and if you take off the Life Orb, it can't OHKO Entei, period:
252 SpA Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Entei: 278-330 (74.9 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Standard Entei is Banded Entei, who WILL one-shot Nidoking with Sacred Fire, and even outspeeds max speed Nidoking:
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 304-358 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It also loses the reliable 2HKO on Mandibuzz:
252 SpA Life Orb Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mandibuzz: 200-237 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mandibuzz: 260-307 (61.3 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And it loses the ability to OHKO Mega Pidgeot, who 2HKOs in return with Hurricane, thanks to outspeeding Nidoking:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pidgeot-Mega: 299-354 (97.3 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pidgeot-Mega: 231-273 (75.2 - 88.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 235-277 (77.5 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It ALSO loses reliable OHKOs on Primarina, who Hydro Pumps it into oblivion, or if it's using standard specs, it can just throw Psychic or Scald at Nidoking instead and still OHKO:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 351-413 (116.6 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 268-320 (89 - 106.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 668-788 (220.4 - 260%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 364-430 (120.1 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 488-576 (161 - 190%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The ability of Nidoking is non-negotiable. If you're using Nidoking, you MUST use Sheer Force for it to be of any use. Your set is a gimmick that makes Nidoking weak to many things that it would otherwise be able to deal with and in turn is just not worth it. Nidoking's only set that actually means anything is the Life Orb Sheer Force set. Your set doesn't stop anything that Nidoking couldn't already stop with its standard set, and in fact makes it NOT stop things that it could with its standard set.
 
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