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Community POTW #061

Discussion in 'POTW Collaboration' started by Serebii, Jan 14, 2018.

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  1. Serebii

    Serebii And, as if by magic, the webmaster appeared... Staff Member Admin

  2. TheIceCream

    TheIceCream User of Ultra Beasts

    Naganadel. The newest edition to be banned to Ubers. Why? Amazing Sp Sttack and Speed with an interesting typing and great movepool makes this thing hard to wall and revenge kill.

    + 127 Sp Attack is amazing. This thing will be hitting fairly hard
    + 121 Speed is also great, allowing to outspeed many threats
    + A good movepool with moves such as Nasty Plot, Sludge Bomb/Wave, Draco Meteor, Flamethrower, Air Slash etc.
    + Poison/Dragon gives it a fair few resistances as well as being one of the few dragons that are a good counter to fairies
    + Beast Boost can raise either your Sp Attack or Speed depending on your spreads
    + UB Stinger. That's a cool code name.

    - 73 bulk across the board isn't great. This thing can't take too many hits
    - 73 Attack also isn't great despite getting quite a few good physical moves
    - 4 Move slot syndrome can be a problem. Especially in VGC.
    - 4 fairly common weaknesses can be a letdown
    - It's banned to Ubers, which is loaded with pokemon such as primal groudon
    - It's the only Pokemon I don't have (other than Zeroara). I wish I could use one...

    Beast Boost: Unlike many of the other Ultra Beasts, Naganadel usually has two different options for Beast Boost. Either its Speed so it can outspeed threats such as Tapu Koko or Sp Attack to keep on Snowballing or to take away drops from a previous Draco Meteor. Either way, Naganadel loves this ability.

    Counters: Heatran is the best counter to Naganadel. Resisting Dragon, being immune to Poison and Fire because of Flash Fire, and being able to OHKO Naganadel with an Earth Power. Primal Groudon also fairs very well as a Precipice Blades OHKOs any Naganadel. However, a +1/2 Draco will hurt Primal Groudon and Groudon doesn't outspeed. Deoxys A can outspeed an OHKO with a Psychic move but will go down to any move from Naganadel. Finally, some priority Pokemon such as a Technician-Shadow Sneak from Marshadow or Extreme Killer Arceus can also do a massive chunk to Naganadel. Go for the mediocre bulk by trying to outspeed. Walling it is very hard.
  3. GeeGee

    GeeGee Late to the party

    +73/127/121 is fantastic offensive stats, and beast boost only makes it scarier
    +Poison/Dragon is a near-unique typing that grants fantastic coverage and isn't weak to fairy types
    +Fantastic movepool containing Key Poison/Dragon/Fire coverage to hit everything for neutral bar Heatran
    +Access to nasty plot got this thing banned
    +First pokemon added mid-generation

    -73/73/73 defenses is low by OU standards, and awful by ubers standards, even with a large number of resistances
    -Poison/Dragon cant touch steel types at all, forcing it to run fire type coverage
    -Nasty weaknesses to dragon, ground, ice and psychic

    Beast boost: Boosts Naganadels highest stat when it scored a KO. With proper EV investment and a correct nature, Naganadel can gain speed boosts instead of special attack boosts. Combined with Nasty plot, thing thing can snowball out of control after a single nasty plot boost. No wonder this thing got banned.

    So nasty it got banned to Ubers
    Item: Dragonium-Z
    Nature: Timid
    Ev's: 252Spa/4SpDef/252Spe
    -Nasty Plot
    -Sluge wave
    -Draco Meteor
    -Fire Blast

    Fire/Dragon/Poison coverage hits everything except for heatran, but after a Nasty plot boost even Heatran won't want to stick around into a +2 Devastating drake. Poison coverage nails any fairies who think they can come in freely on this thing, and Fire blast hits steel types that resist Naganadels STAB moves. Unfortunately, low bulk makes Naganadel weaks to being revenge killed by the likes of Marshadow or Mega Lucario. Focus sash is an alternative if you want that survivability, but without a Z-crystal Naganadel will struggle to break though certain walls.

    Other Options:
    Naganadel has a plethora of other coverage moves it can run, including thunderbolt, air slash, dark pulse and signal beam. Unfortunately, running any of these over fire blast or flamethrower means Naganadel gets walled by steel types including Necrozma-Dusk and Ferrothorn.

    VGC 2018
    Item: Focus sash/Life Orb/Z-crystal (Poison or dragon)
    Nature: Timid
    Ev's: 4Hp/252Spa/252Spe
    -Sludge Bomb
    -Draco Meteor/Flamethrower/Heat Wave

    Naganadel is a lot less impressive in doubles, but thanks to tailwind it can certainly pull its own weight on your team. Single-target attacks are the way to go, so sludge bomb is run over sludge wave, despite lower power. Due to the abundance of fairies in the format, including the 4 tapus as well as Mega gardevoir and Azumarill, Dragon-type coverage isn't strictly necessary. Fire-type coverage however, is due to the high number of steel types in the format. Protect is a staple for doubles.

    Other Options:
    Hidden power ground can be run to hit Heatran, while hidden power Ice hits Landorus-T. Thunderbolt hits Tapu Fini, Politoed, Gyarados and Azumarill, although sludge bomb already hits Tapu fini and Azumarill anyways thanks to their fairy typing. Dark pulse hits psychic types, but most of the important psychic types come with a secondary fairy typing, which again, is taken care of by Sludge bomb. Helping Hand is an interesting choice that can make an ally's attack hit like a bus. However, Naganadel already hits relatively hard, so it would make more sense for an ally to use helping hand on Naganadel instead.

    Since Naganadel can handle the Tapu's exceptionally well, anyone who appreciates their removal makes for a good teammate. This includes almost any fighting type or pokemon that wants to spread status conditions, such as Rotom-Wash, who fears Tapu Bulu and can't spread will-o-wisp while Tapu fini's Misty terrain is on the field. Thanks to tailwind, any team mate with a less-than-impressive speed stat can start sweeping. This includes Megazard-Y, who also appreciates removal of Tapu fini and Tapu Koko.

    Naganadel itself wants partners that can remove its biggest threats, namely Heatran, and any threatening ground or steel type that can capitalize on its nasty ground weakness. Partners like Tapu Fini or Landorus-T threaten Heatran. Tapu Bulu's grassy terrain weakens Earthquakes that might other wise OHKO Naganadel, and Grassy surge removes Tapu Fini's misty terrain, which would weaken Naganadel's dragon type attacks. If you don't want to run tailwind on Nagandel, Suicune makes for an excellent Tailwind setter, and Naganadel counters any grass type that could threaten Suicune.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  4. BillyBobJoe

    BillyBobJoe Well-Known Member

    One major problem with Naganadel is that it rarely has a chance to setup (without a Focus Sash) due to its poor defenses. This means that a Toxic-Venoshock combo is hard to pull off, as is using Nasty Plot.

    As a note, if you want to use Draco Meteor, you either need Nasty Plot or you must ensure that Naganadel’s IV’s won’t raise it’s Speed over its Sp.Atk with Beast Boost.
  5. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Happy Minun

    In regular play where legendaries are banned like the Battle Spot, I think Naganadel is still far too frail to be considered OP, it's just a glass cannon. It needs Nasty Plot to get its damage high enough to get reliable KOs (especially when running Timid so it'd Beast Boost on the speed), but it's so frail it's difficult to set up. It can run Modest instead but that leaves it outsped by a plethora of other pokémon like the Lati twins, Dusk Lycanroc (with its Drill Run), Kartana, Starmie, Espeon, and so on and a lot of them have super effective STAB to take it out (Choice Band Kartana can OHKO with Smart Strike). And even on Timid it's still outsped by several pokémon like Greninja, Weavile, Mega Alakazam, and Mega Sceptile that have no problem getting OHKOs with Ice Beam, Icicle Crash, Psychic, and Dragon Pulse respectively. It can run Modest with a Choice Scarf, hoping to go on a sweep with Beast Boost boosting its Sp.Atk, but a Scarf set can't set up Nasty Plot and it obviously locks its moves in making it far easier to wall. Just switch in Mimikyu if it's locked into Dragon Pulse and set up Swords Dance. Switch in Garchomp or Scizor when it's locked into Sludge Wave to set up Swords Dance (Garchomp can also just take it out with Earthquake, but it can Swords Dance on the switch).

    Special walls do really well against it. Base 127 Sp.Atk is good but it's far from unstoppable. Assault Vest Regice is a particularly interesting one that's also underappreciated. Even though it's weak to Fire it can still easily switch in and take it out with Ice Beam, it's so bulky on the special side it survives a +2 Fire Blast even after Stealth Rock.

    +2 252 Sp.Atk Life Orb Naganadel Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 Sp.Def Assault Vest Regice: 117-140 (62.5 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Assault Vest Goodra is also an interesting one. Although not quite as potent as Regice due to a lower Sp.Def stat and a weakness to Naganadel's STAB move, it can easily win one-on-one, surviving a Life Orb Draco Meteor and KOing back with Dragon Pulse. There are several other walls that simply beat it one-on-one to such an extent that it just can't set up if it's matched up against them. For instance Slowking can OHKO with Psychic while surviving Draco Meteor. Against variants without Nasty Plot Slowking can even try using it as setup bait for Calm Mind, Draco Meteor only deals about 50% damage on the first hit so Slowking can easily set up with Calm Mind + Slack Off due to diminishing returns on Draco Meteor. It does have to somewhat watch out for Thunderbolt but that's pretty rare on Naganadel. Cresselia can also take almost anything it has and set up Calm Mind, although it won't KO without setup with Psychic, it needs one Calm Mind first. Blissey can also take anything it has and set up Calm Minds. Overall, specially defensive Calm Mind users, especially those with a recovery move, can really use Naganadel as setup bait. Snorlax can also do decently. Offensive variants can take at least one hit and KO with Earthquake, while specially defensive variants (like Curselax) can use it as setup bait:

    +2 252 Sp.Atk Naganadel Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ Sp.Def Snorlax: 97-115 (36.3 - 43%)

    That's dangerous for Naganadel, Snorlax often runs recovery berries like Figy Berry with Gluttony so you're looking at 150% of a Snorlax health bar, and even without investment Snorlax only needs a single Curse to get into OHKO range with Earthquake. Naganadel could try to go for more Nasty Plots but usually Snorlax wouldn't let it set up that much.
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  6. Archstaraptor

    Archstaraptor Team Builder / RMT

    Life Orb Dragon pulse isn't the worst thing, nor is it the most common.The set to watch out for is the Draconium Z set, which has more immediate power, and thus has an easier time pushing through things that like to click softboiled, recover or slack off.Z-Draco Meteor doesn't lower special attack either, so a boosted draco meteor can be used the following turn.

    Thus,the problem with Naganadel is that answers to it become harder to find exclusively after it gets a nasty plot boost.It is not as hard to beat when you have an offensive check in front of it to prevent it boosting and flat out winning.
    So before a boost, Goodra is decent.
    Afterwards, it's useless.
    +2 252 SpA Naganadel Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra: (119.7 - 143.1%) -- Guaranteed OHKO
    Bear in mind that Naganadel only needs a boost or two and it can OHKO Chansey with Devastating Drake, so it should be prioritised to make sure you can knock this thing out immediately, or have a sound switchin that can both take a boosted attack, and knock it out just as promptly.You cannot just switch in and throw seismic tosses at it.
    For this reason, AV Regice is indeed a nice answer to Naganadel, thanks to both high bulk and offensive options to take it down, and can switch in whilst it nasty plots ( but only once if stealth rocks are up).

    As evident from battle spot - a wall or attacker that cannot hit naganadel is a major liability.So Hippowdon: yes, Toxapex: no. Ferrothorn, whilst weak to fire blast, has the potential to OHKO with gyro ball, and thus isn't unviable because at the very least it prevents it clicking nasty plot for free.

    Great speed, perfect coverage, a boosting move,and a great ability. Naganadel needs to be prepared for adequately. Otherwise you will just lose.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  7. Aduro

    Aduro Mt.BtlMaster

    Gyro Ball doesn't really matter much if Nagandel is running fire blast though. At lvl 50 Nagandel will OHKO 43% of the time even if its not using a relevant item (ie holding Dragonium Z or a choice scarf) and timid rather than modest. And that's assuming ferrothorn is max sp.def, max HP Sassy. In which case Gyro ball isn't getting the KO. If the nagandel is running a life orb,specs or even an expert belt. That ferrothorn needs fire blast to miss.
    252 SpA Naganadel Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 164-196 (90.6 - 108.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Expert Belt Naganadel Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 197-235 (108.8 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    If the ferrothorn is running enough attack investment to even have a chance to OHKO with gyro ball, the fire blast will OHKO it.

    180 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Naganadel: 126-148 (85.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Naganadel Fire Blast vs. 72 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 164-196 (103.7 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    If you lead ferrothorn and the other guy leads Nagandel. You either switch into something that can take a hit, the guy with the Nagandel overpredicts and drops a draco or U-turns or something, or the Nagandel OHKOs ferrothorn and gets a +1 beast boost.
  8. Mestorn

    Mestorn Wandering Battler

    Neutralizing Naganadel

    Naganadel lives and dies by its speed. It literally doesn't have any other option, so methods that take away its speed are a must. Sticky Web is a good start, and can counteract the first Beast Boost if need be. Paralysis, espiecially from Prankster Thunder/Stun Spore users like Thundurus and Whimsicott really drag Naganadel down, but they have few answers to it and will almost certainly be KOd in turn.

    Other Pokémon that natively outspeed it, like Mega Alakazam, (Mega) Aerodactyl, Mega Beedrill (NEEDS Drill Run and entry hazards), Deoxys, Mega Gengar, Mewtwo, Pheromosa, etc. all natively outspeed and can OHKO Naganadel, though after one Beast Boost, that is turned around and they are destroyed instead.

    Priority remains the best way to deal with Naganadel. Sadly its typing offers useful resistances against several priority moves. Ice Shard users, like Weavile, Mamoswine, can help stop a Setup Naganadel, but they will need it weakened first to secure the KO. Gale Wings Talonflame can secure the OHKO as well, but you will need a Supersonic Airstrike (Brave Bird) to guarantee the OHKO.

    Again, I should stress that Nagandel needs to secure the OHKO. With Focus Sash or Sturdy in effect, any attacker can survive the blow, and strike back, maiming or OHKOing Naganadal in turn. Naganadal often needs the turn to setup, so hyper offense teams may find it easier.

    Oh yeah, and Heatran walls this thing's usual set to high tide and back. Just sayin.
  9. Archstaraptor

    Archstaraptor Team Builder / RMT

    Oh yeah, all I was saying that Ferrothorn has the potential to knock out Nagandel without much effort. Unlike Toxapex, which gives it free turns.

    That's all it was! Realistically the only times Ferro could face off against Naganadel would be when it's raining, or when the Naganadel nasty plots instead of straight up attacking.
  10. MetalSonic

    MetalSonic Orderan' Defendan'

    Another great thing about Naga was that it gave offense a new Mon to absorb t-spikes. When Naga reigned in OU everyone was all AV T-Tar and Heatran it was pretty funny! Just a whole bunch sticky webs Naga, hehe.
  11. ampfire101

    ampfire101 Well-Known Member

    VGC Corner

    So Naga has had some use in VGC thus far this season. It usually has to run four of the following: Protect, Nasty Plot, Tailwind, Sludge Bomb, Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Flamethrower/Fire Blast, HP Ice/Ground, and U-Turn (rarely). I personally like how Cybertron used it in his Road to Ranked series on YouTube, with a Focus Sash, Tailwind, Sludge Bomb, Flamethrower, and Protect, as it is a rather standard approach to its Tailwind capabilities. I would also like to point out that given how frail Naganadel is, it usually runs a Sash on support sets, coupled with Protect to make sure Fake Out doesn't break it and leave it open to a quick KO on turn 1. On more offensive sets, I would run Nasty Plot with a Dragonium Z or Life Orb, with Sludge Bomb, Draco Meteor, and Protect. Given its poor defenses, it's hard to justify providing EVs to any of its defensive stats. Most people will run Timid max speed to always outspeed Mega Salamence, but keep Naga's ability, Beast Boost, in mind. Depending on which stat its nature boosts, SpA or Spe, its Beast Boost will raise the respective stat upon scoring a KO. HP Ice and HP Ground are for Mega Salamence and Heatran, respectively. Dragon Pulse can be used in combo with Draco Meteor for a consistent damaging Dragon-STAB, but be wary of Misty Terrain from Tapu Fini. U-Turn is sorta nice for having a fast pivot option that can deal some chip damage in the process. EVs, for the most part, are no question: 252 in SpA and Spe and 4 in SpD so Porygon2 doesn't get a Download boost in SpA.
  12. EKZ1505

    EKZ1505 Trust The Process

    Pretty sure he ran HP Ice over Flamethrower, but it was a cool team.

    I don't think U-Turn deserves any consideration at all unless you're running something different like Modest Choice Scarf, and even then there's better options for your 4th slot. As you pointed out, there's just too many better options.
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