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Community POTW #066

Discussion in 'POTW Collaboration' started by Serebii, Feb 18, 2018.

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  1. Serebii

    Serebii And, as if by magic, the webmaster appeared... Staff Member Admin

  2. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    Ludicolo is very common in Battle Spot Doubles these days for rain teams, and for good reason. It brings a lot of utility, like Fake Out, speed, and a good balance between defensive bulk thanks to its typing and offensive power that's boosted by rain. It pretty much always runs the same rough set in doubles though, which is this:

    Ludicolo @ Assault Vest / Waterium Z
    Ability: Swift Swim
    252 Sp.Atk, 212 Speed, 44 HP
    Nature: Modest
    -Fake Out
    -Ice Beam
    -Scald / Hydro Pump
    -Giga Drain / Energy Ball

    This set gives Ludicolo enough speed to outspeed Adamant Choice Scarf Garchomp in the rain (level 50s), which is a nice speed tier to reach as Garchomp often runs Poison Jab coverage, this way you can destroy it with Ice Beam first. Fake Out is Fake Out, shutting down an opponent for a turn, and in the rain it's the third fastest Fake Out in the game (aside from Alolan Raichu in Electric Terrain and Chlorophyll Shiftry in the sun I think), outspeeding opposing Quick Guard or Fake Out users. Max Sp.Atk to hit as hard as possible and the rest is invested into HP for added bulk. Scald vs Hydro Pump is preference, Hydro Pump hits significantly harder, but Scald is more accurate. Hydro Pump is often combined with the Waterium Z to have one perfectly accurate water nuke. Your Grass STAB is also preference, Giga Drain doesn't have the power of Energy Ball, but it does provide recovery. Pretty much all Ludicolo you'll see in Battle Spot Doubles are some variant of this set, and that's because it's the most reliable set it has.

    You can fiddle around a bit with the speed. 244 Speed EVs allow you to outspeed Timid Scarf Tapu Lele for instance, also a fairly common threat (and Hydro Pump has a good chance to OHKO Tapu Lele in the rain). 252 Speed EVs is also an option to speed creep everything that is specifically aiming to outspeed Scarf Tapu Lele.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  3. Mestorn

    Mestorn Wandering Battler

    Though Miror B is a quirky guy, and Ludicolo is a quirky Pokémon to match, do not underestimate Ludicolo. It is one of the most terrifying pokémon in the rain. Most Pokémon that benefit from the rain (barring Hurricane users) find themselves hopelessly walled by Ludicolo due to its great typing, SDEF, and Ludicolo's tendency to run STAB Giga Drain.

    LudiTrollo
    Ludicolo
    Ability: Swift Swim/Rain Dish
    Item: Leftovers
    -Leech Seed
    -Giga Drain
    -Substitute
    -Scald/Hydro Pump/Toxic/Rain Dance
    EVs: 252 HP/200 DEF/56 SDEF
    Nature: Bold (+DEF, -ATK)

    Premise is simple as it is annoying -have Ludicolo come in on the rain, throw up a Substitute and become an immortal lump the regenerates HP and Substitutes faster than you can kill it. Both abilities have merit here. Swift Swim provides Ludicolo a valuable speed boost that enables it to get it's Substitute up before it can be struck, while Rain Dish provides a boost of recovery while the rain is still up. This set is meant to remove an opponents walls, and water types who lack the appropriate coverage moves/power to break through Ludicolo. Last move is up to preference. Scald gives you a Water STAB and the burn chance makes Ludicolo even more bulky when it goes off. Toxic is great for dealing with walls that aren't immune to it. Hydro Pump has poor PP and Accuracy but can give Ludicolo a powerful emergency option. Finally Rain Dance is good for having Ludicolo renew its own rain, since it is going to try to be on the field longer than the normal 5/8 turns that Drizzle/another teammate normally provides.
     
  4. GeeGee

    GeeGee Late to the party

    Pros:
    +Unique Grass/Water typing leaves it with weaknesses to only flying, poison, and bug, making it a great addition to rain teams since it shares no weaknesses with other water types
    +Swift Swim has made Ludicolo a rain team staple since forever, able to pump out high-powered water attacks while outspeeding the competition
    +90 special attack is passable when boosted by rain, and 100 special defense is deceptively bulky
    +Access to Fake out and a large number of other offensive moves gives Ludicolo a home in doubles

    Cons:
    -70/90/70 offenses isn't that impressive even under rain, and if not using a rain-boosted water-type move Ludicolo's lack of power is noticable
    -80/70/100 bulk with weaknesses to flying, bug and poison leave Ludicolo vulnerable physically
    -Seismetoad, Mega Swampert and Kingdra are all faster swift swim users, giving Ludicolo some serious competition

    Abilities:
    Rain Dish: Heals 1/16th max hp at the end of each turn while it is raining. Basically a second leftovers, it can be very useful to keep Ludicolo healthy when combined with other forms of recovery like leftovers and leech seed.
    Swift Swim: Doubles Ludicolo's speed in rain. This makes Ludicolo a very potent special threat, capable of outspeeding key threats and punching holes through walls.
    Own Tempo: Prevents Ludicolo from being confused. Outside of Hurricane, confusion is pretty uncommon, and not taking either of Ludicolo's rain-orientated abilities takes away its niche and thus the entire reason to use Ludicolo in the first place.

    Sets

    Z-move Attacker
    Nature: Modest/Timid
    Ability: Swift Swim
    Ev's: 4 HP / 252 Spa / 252 Spe
    Item: Waterium-Z/Life Orb
    Moves:
    -Hydro Pump/Scald
    -Energy Ball
    -Ice Beam
    -Fake out/Protect

    This is the most common Ludicolo set you will see. Hydro pump hits like a truck under rain, but the low accuracy can make it a little bit risky, so you can opt for Scald if accuracy is more important, but the lower power will be noticeable. Energy ball is the grass-STAB and hits mega Swampert, the prime swift swim user in VGC 2018. Ice Beam offers fantastic coverage against Garchomp and Landorus-T. Fake out is great in doubles to pop a focus sash or buy an ally a turn to set up or switch in with less worry. Modest is the preferred nature since it offers the most power, although timid is a viable option to outspeed opposing Ludicolo and catch other faster threats by surprise.

    Ludicolo's weaknesses to poison, bug and flying means it needs to watch out for Garchomp's Poison jab, Pelipper's Hurricane, and various U-turn abusers. Obviously, a drizzle user is a mandatory team mate. Pelipper offers a nice flying/water typing and provides more offensive presence than politoed, and has perfect accuracy Hurricanes under rain. Additional Pokemon that appreciate rain dance include Mega Swampert as a second swift swimmer, or electric types like Tapu Koko that can abuse perfect accuracy Thunders under rain.

    Assault Vest
    Nature: Modest
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 204 HP / 20 Def / 124 SpA / 76 SpD / 84 Spe
    Moves:
    - Scald
    - Giga Drain
    - Ice Beam
    - Fake Out

    A bulkier EV spread with an assault vest makes Ludicolo very difficult to take down, and the increased bulk allows Ludicolo to make use of more defensive attacks like Giga Drain to keep itself healthy, or Scald to snag a burn on an opponent. The speed Ev's allow it to outspeed Timid Tapu Koko under rain, and makes its thunderbolt a 3HKO. Giga Drain also hits Mega Swampert, as well as Rotom-W super effectively. Weather control is important, because outside of Rain Ludicolo slows down to a crawl, and hits like a pool noodle.

    Good allies for Ludicolo besides the obvious rain setters include team mates that can beat opposing rain teams. Powerful electric types like Tapu Koko or Mega Manectric come to mind, but they are walled by grass and ground types. An additional grass type like Ferrothorn or Mega Venusaur make for good checks to Mega Swampert, and appreciate rain support to cover their Fire-type weaknesses. Just watch out for Pelipper's hurricane, scaring off grass types that might want to switch in. Lightning rod users like Raichu or Togedemaru can keep your other water types and rain setters safe from single-target electric attacks. Intimidate abusers can shore up Ludicolo's lesser physical defense.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  5. Wakerra

    Wakerra Pokemon Breeder

    I had a KILLER tank 4-way healing Ludicolo! This guy was amazing back before Fairies were a thing and poison was more commonplace on a team. Can't say much for gen 7 moves and z-crystals, but from Gen 6:

    Item: Leftovers
    Nature: Bold
    Ability: Rain Dish
    EVs: 144 HP / 252 Def / 114 Sp Def
    Moves:
    - Rain Dance/Toxic/Hydro Pump/Ice Beam
    - Giga Drain
    - Leech Seed
    - Scald/Hydro Pump/Surf

    Don't know what more to say, the set up kind of speaks for itself. I focused all the EVs on maxing that naturally low Def stat, and equalizing Sp Def, putting the rest to HP to keep him tanky. STAB Giga Drain and Leech Seed keep him alive, with Leftovers and Rain Dish bringing it home. Rain Dance is interchangeable if you plan to run a Drizzler on the team, leaving you open to great options like Toxic, or Ice Beam for variety. And Scald gives a nice STAB for his secondary type while also allowing for chance of burn. This could be arguably changed for something like Hydro Pump or Surf, but both are risky as Hydro has a lower accuracy and PP max, and if in a double battle, Surf affects your teammates. Either move choice is boosted if rain is in play though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  6. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    I recall running something like that in Emerald with Dive as the water move, it worked really well back then because Dive also stalls a turn for all your Leech Seed + Leftovers + Rain Dish stuff to proc. Not sure how it holds up nowadays with the massive power creep that's been there though.
     
  7. ampfire101

    ampfire101 Well-Known Member

    Ludicolo in VGC uses a Modest nature with, at the very least, enough speed EVs to outspeed Timid Tapu Koko under rain. While AV used to be super popular, there's a shiny new gem Ludi uses called a Z crystal, specifically the Waterium Z, as almost anything that takes neutral from water type moves will go down in one hit to Hydro Vortex off of Hydro Pump under Rain. Typically the other three moveslots are dedicated to three of the following moves: Protect, Fake Out, Ice Beam, and Giga Drain/Energy Ball, depending on what your team needs. Close to max SpA EVs are needed, and the remaining EVs are dumped into defenses. I don't have any specific spreads for you cuz I just don't use Ludi very often, but it's not a bad thing to just try a 252/252/4 spread for it and then change it to counter specific threats to your team.
     
  8. dementeddurian

    dementeddurian Well-Known Member

    One of the problems with Ludicolo these days is Terrain moves. Things like Electric Terrain can make perfectly accurate Thunders OHKO Ludicolo if you are not careful. It doesn't like Psychic Terrain because it can't use Fake Out and it may fall to boosted Psychic moves. It doesn't mind Misty Terrain as much since Toxic can't touch it but removes Scald from the equation. It likes Grassy Terrain, especially if using Rain Dish with Leftovers and Leech Seed, but may have trouble taking out threats that benefit from Grassy Terrain, too. Ultimately, I think Terrain control is important, especially if running a specific set.
     
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