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Community POTW #081

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Mye

Someone has to win..
Just a reminder that Fire Punch and Thunder Punch are outdamaged by neutral Return or High Jump Kick unless the target has a double weakness, and several Fire Punch targets are already weak to High Jump Kick. Not even OO worthy honestly.
Pretty sure Parasect is the only pokemon to fall into the category of the latter, albeit it is already OHKO'd by either move even with maximum defensive investment.
 

Karxrida

Lost in the Waves
Pretty sure Parasect is the only pokemon to fall into the category of the latter, albeit it is already OHKO'd by either move even with maximum defensive investment.
Parasect isn't viable enough to be worth a mention and like you said dies to Return anyway.

Let's actually have counters and not things that find it hard to switch in on any of it's attacks.

Lando-T
Clefable
Mew
Rotom-W
Skarmory
Slowbro/Mega Slowbro
Celebi

All come to mind.
Missed this earlier, but Lando-T is not a full counter do to the prevalence of Ice Punch while standard Physically Defensive Rotom-W is 2HKO'd by High Jump Kick. They're both decent checks at least (though Rotom-W is boned by SubPuP).
 

ger9119

Well-Known Member
Parasect isn't viable enough to be worth a mention and like you said dies to Return anyway.


Missed this earlier, but Lando-T is not a full counter do to the prevalence of Ice Punch while standard Physically Defensive Rotom-W is 2HKO'd by High Jump Kick. They're both decent checks at least (though Rotom-W is boned by SubPuP).
That's true, but non Ice Punch variants Lando-T is solid. Just wanted to bring better checks/counters compared to what the user i quoted put.
 

Deltadromeus

Active Member
Mega Salamence is a pretty darn good counter to Lopunny, as it has intimidate as well as Return. Even with Fake Out and Ice Punch, You can't be sure of a win.
 

Karxrida

Lost in the Waves
Mega Salamence is a pretty darn good counter to Lopunny, as it has intimidate as well as Return. Even with Fake Out and Ice Punch, You can't be sure of a win.
Mega Mence is OHKO'd after Rocks pre-Mega even with Intimidate. Not exactly a good counter.
 

ger9119

Well-Known Member
Mega Salamence is a pretty darn good counter to Lopunny, as it has intimidate as well as Return. Even with Fake Out and Ice Punch, You can't be sure of a win.
Guys counters mean something that can outright wall it or can switch in and take multiple hits while beating it or forcing it to switch out. Everyone has been naming checks ( loose checks at that) or stuff that can't switch into Lopunny at all.
 

Black Murder Heavangelon

Ow! Ow! Harder! Ow!
This is probably the first mega we've had where the Mega and Non Mega forms of the pokemon can perform wildly different functions from each other. This is obvious with a pokemon with a Klutz ability, sure, but I think we're all forgetting to address the mindgames it brings just seeing regular Lopunny in the team preview.

Like, say you have a Switcheroo set and you switch it in on a ghost type. If your item isn't immediately obvious, your opponent is going to think it's a mega and is going to mega evolve and make the ghost type eat a Hi Jump Kick. This puts the opponents into two situations. Either reveal Protect or any other protection move to block the Fake Out or Hi Jump Kick, or switch out into something the opponent knows is their best chance at tanking or walling Mega Lopunny. Something like Slowbro or Scizor. By then it's up to you to read your opponents mind and act accordingly, either double switching or revealing Switcheroo.

This is something I feel like we've been missing for the past PotW Megas and I'd like to see this potential mind game discussed more this week.
 

ger9119

Well-Known Member
This is probably the first mega we've had where the Mega and Non Mega forms of the pokemon can perform wildly different functions from each other. This is obvious with a pokemon with a Klutz ability, sure, but I think we're all forgetting to address the mindgames it brings just seeing regular Lopunny in the team preview.

Like, say you have a Switcheroo set and you switch it in on a ghost type. If your item isn't immediately obvious, your opponent is going to think it's a mega and is going to mega evolve and make the ghost type eat a Hi Jump Kick. This puts the opponents into two situations. Either reveal Protect or any other protection move to block the Fake Out or Hi Jump Kick, or switch out into something the opponent knows is their best chance at tanking or walling Mega Lopunny. Something like Slowbro or Scizor. By then it's up to you to read your opponents mind and act accordingly, either double switching or revealing Switcheroo.

This is something I feel like we've been missing for the past PotW Megas and I'd like to see this potential mind game discussed more this week.
There's no reason to run regular Lopunny in Standard OU over it's Mega form. There's far better things to put in it's team spot, and if you want a mon that runs a annoying "mind game" set there's better options too.
 

Deltadromeus

Active Member
Guys counters mean something that can outright wall it or can switch in and take multiple hits while beating it or forcing it to switch out. Everyone has been naming checks ( loose checks at that) or stuff that can't switch into Lopunny at all.
It is so hard to completely counter Mega Lopunny. After thinking about it for a while, only physically defensive Cresselia comes to mind that will completely wall Lopunny, especially when it has Rockey Helmet. Maybe physically defensive Alomamola walls Lopunny, but the substitute sets baiscally ruin Alomamola. Talonflame can barely switch into a Fake Out, let alone a full powered Return. Of course, once in, it will ruin Lopunny. I'm brainstorming right now, so lets add Mega Slowbro to the mix. He can tank just about any physical hit and set up with Iron Defense. Those are the only pokemon who I can think to switch in and completely wall Lopunny.
 

ger9119

Well-Known Member
It is so hard to completely counter Mega Lopunny. After thinking about it for a while, only physically defensive Cresselia comes to mind that will completely wall Lopunny, especially when it has Rockey Helmet. Maybe physically defensive Alomamola walls Lopunny, but the substitute sets baiscally ruin Alomamola. Talonflame can barely switch into a Fake Out, let alone a full powered Return. Of course, once in, it will ruin Lopunny. I'm brainstorming right now, so lets add Mega Slowbro to the mix. He can tank just about any physical hit and set up with Iron Defense. Those are the only pokemon who I can think to switch in and completely wall Lopunny.
I listed a bunch of things in page one, it's not that hard to counter it.
 

Alita54

Well-Known Member
(Mega) Lopunny is one of the very few 4th gen pokemon I really like. Since most have already covered the best/standard sets I'm gonna talk about a slightly different one...

Hold item: Lopunnite
Ability: Limber before mega and scrappy after
EV's: 252 speed, 156 HP, 100 attack
Nature: Jolly
-Fake Out
-Baton Pass
-Power Up Punch
-Ice Punch/Agility/Drain Punch

This set is meant to be used around baton pass for team support. You boost your attack with power up punch a few times then pass the boosts to another teammate to sweep with in singles. If you pick agility your can boost you teammate further. Each time you baton pass you get a new fake out as well. The last slot is for coverage, more healing, or more team support.

Let's actually have counters and not things that find it hard to switch in on any of it's attacks.

Lando-T
Clefable
Mew
Rotom-W
Skarmory
Slowbro/Mega Slowbro
Celebi

All come to mind.
To be fair? M lopunny has at least one move in it's arsenal that can do a lot of damage to any of these pokemon. Lando T gets ****ed up by ice punch, clefable definitely doesn't like iron tail, celebi won't like switching into ice punch or fire punch, etc.
 
To be fair? M lopunny has at least one move in it's arsenal that can do a lot of damage to any of these pokemon. Lando T gets ****ed up by ice punch, clefable definitely doesn't like iron tail, celebi won't like switching into ice punch or fire punch, etc.
Iron Tail is bad and Celebi is hit harder by Return than by Ice Punch. If there's one thing that some of these Pokemon will hate switching into it's Substitute + Encore sets, but as it stands, Landorus-T is the only one listed that takes more damage from a coverage move than from one of Mega Lopunny's STABs.
 

ger9119

Well-Known Member
(Mega) Lopunny is one of the very few 4th gen pokemon I really like. Since most have already covered the best/standard sets I'm gonna talk about a slightly different one...

Hold item: Lopunnite
Ability: Limber before mega and scrappy after
EV's: 252 speed, 156 HP, 100 attack
Nature: Jolly
-Fake Out
-Baton Pass
-Power Up Punch
-Ice Punch/Agility/Drain Punch

This set is meant to be used around baton pass for team support. You boost your attack with power up punch a few times then pass the boosts to another teammate to sweep with in singles. If you pick agility your can boost you teammate further. Each time you baton pass you get a new fake out as well. The last slot is for coverage, more healing, or more team support.



To be fair? M lopunny has at least one move in it's arsenal that can do a lot of damage to any of these pokemon. Lando T gets ****ed up by ice punch, clefable definitely doesn't like iron tail, celebi won't like switching into ice punch or fire punch, etc.
So it can run run 7 moves at once? That's new. And that set is bad, the only reason why you run Lopunny is for it to punch holes in teams and sweep, it's not designed to be a support. The common sets have Return + Fighting Move + Encore + Sub or an attacking set with Ice Punch as a third coverage move. Fire Punch really isn't that common unless you really need to hit Skarmory, and Iron Tail is just a really bad move choice. I wouldn't even consider Fake Out it's best option for a slot since running Encore or Sub or PuP instead of it is a much better choice.
 

Shinzan

Active Member
The easy part is countering Lopunny. The hard part is countering Mega-Lopunny thanks to Scrappy and its new fighting type STAB. It's like trying to counter Hydreigon and Greninja. You might as well try to tactically counter it instead of relying on rock-paper-scissors mechanics.

M-Lopunny lacks bulk but can compensates it with its superior offenses and speed. However, it can be bred to know Cosmic Power to boost its defenses and could heal from tanked hits with Drain Punch. Conkeldurr serves as a useful check with physical bulk, overwhelming offense, access to Drain Punch as well as Mach Punch.

M-Lopunny lacks access to moves that boost its Attack by two stages, but can learn Power-Up Punch and Work Up (transfer from Gen V). A physically bulky Gothitelle with Shadow Tag can nerf its power output with Charm while trapping it as it tries to KO it.

M-Lopunny's strongest STAB moves are High Jump Kick and Return. Those two moves along with Scrappy covers just about every typing that it can hit for neutral damage. In addition, it can learn the elemental punches for specific threats, Fake-Out and Quick Attack for priority, Drain Punch for reliable healing, and Facade in case of being burned. All of the above moves are contact moves which have a common weakness. In addition, High-Jump Kick and its weaker variant comes with a risky drawback that severely harms the user upon missing.

Physically Bulky Skarmory holding a Rocky Helmet not only takes M-Lopunny's hits well, but can shrug off the damage with Roost after it attacks so that M-Lopunny cannot exploit the temporary loss of its Flying-Typing.

As an alternative, M-Aggron is a viable solution as its ability Filter which lets it take less damage from super effective hits could lure the M-Lopunny user into using High Jump Kick, at which point using Protect would cripple it further. The fact that it is physically bulky also makes Drain Punch less useful for that matter.
 

Deltadromeus

Active Member
Let's actually have counters and not things that find it hard to switch in on any of it's attacks.

Lando-T
Clefable
Mew
Rotom-W
Skarmory
Slowbro/Mega Slowbro
Celebi

All come to mind.
I've been doing some damage calculations, and, well, lets look at some results.

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 66-78 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Okay, so Mew (and Celebi) can tank Lopunny pretty well, and then do the KO it with Psychic?

4 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 108-128 (77.1 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

No. So, that means that, a completely physically bulky Mew/Celebi will take three hits from Return (if they switched in). Leftovers will save them, but just they will be easy pickings.

Lets try Rotom.

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 79-94 (50.3 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rotom does not want to switch in, even if it has a Sitrius Berry, mainly because Hi Jump Kick will bring Rotom down into the range of a Burned Lopunny.
Okay, lets see about Landorus.

-1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 92-112 (46.9 - 57.1%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is the a more uncommon physically defensive Landorus. Look at that. 37.5% chance to 2HKO. Okay, but after a Return or even Hi Jump Kick, with Leftovers, and with the lowest Hi Jump Kick doing less than it could (2% less)

-1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 92-112 (46.9 - 57.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO.

Landorus using Earthquake:
4 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 82-97 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Okay, Landorus doesn't want to switch in to Lopunny, even with that Intimidate. Clefable, anyone?

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 79-94 (39.1 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Can Clefable OHKO Lopunny?
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 108-128 (77.1 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
No.
Skarmory Time!

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 66-78 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And for Skarmory using Brave Bird
4 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 120-144 (85.7 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Okay, so Skarmory does good. Finally, Slowbro/Mega Slowbro
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 61-73 (30.1 - 36.1%) -- 52.4% chance to 3HKO (on the turn it switched in)

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 43-52 (21.2 - 25.7%) -- 1.1% chance to 4HKO (when it Mega Evolves, so about 60%)

And Slowbro can do:
4 SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 58-70 (41.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

4 SpA Mega Slowbro Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 120-144 (85.7 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

So Slowbro and Mega Slowbro are the way to go. This doesn't even factor in Stealth Rocks or Spikes, but it does factor in the fact that they would switch in to an attack, which, as you say, a good counter should do. And the fact that it can heal up any damage done, or has a decent amount of life for upcoming opponents, makes a really good counter. Mega Slowbro all the way baby. If you see an error, please, let me know.
 

Saph~

Serebii Champion x.x
I've been doing some damage calculations, and, well, lets look at some results.

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 66-78 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Okay, so Mew (and Celebi) can tank Lopunny pretty well, and then do the KO it with Psychic?

4 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 108-128 (77.1 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

No. So, that means that, a completely physically bulky Mew/Celebi will take three hits from Return (if they switched in). Leftovers will save them, but just they will be easy pickings.

Lets try Rotom.

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 79-94 (50.3 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Rotom does not want to switch in, even if it has a Sitrius Berry, mainly because Hi Jump Kick will bring Rotom down into the range of a Burned Lopunny.
Okay, lets see about Landorus.

-1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 92-112 (46.9 - 57.1%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is the a more uncommon physically defensive Landorus. Look at that. 37.5% chance to 2HKO. Okay, but after a Return or even Hi Jump Kick, with Leftovers, and with the lowest Hi Jump Kick doing less than it could (2% less)

-1 252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 92-112 (46.9 - 57.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO.

Landorus using Earthquake:
4 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 82-97 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Okay, Landorus doesn't want to switch in to Lopunny, even with that Intimidate. Clefable, anyone?

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 79-94 (39.1 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Can Clefable OHKO Lopunny?
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 108-128 (77.1 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
No.
Skarmory Time!

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 66-78 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

And for Skarmory using Brave Bird
4 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 120-144 (85.7 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Okay, so Skarmory does good. Finally, Slowbro/Mega Slowbro
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 61-73 (30.1 - 36.1%) -- 52.4% chance to 3HKO (on the turn it switched in)

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 43-52 (21.2 - 25.7%) -- 1.1% chance to 4HKO (when it Mega Evolves, so about 60%)

And Slowbro can do:
4 SpA Mega Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 58-70 (41.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

4 SpA Mega Slowbro Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 120-144 (85.7 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

So Slowbro and Mega Slowbro are the way to go. This doesn't even factor in Stealth Rocks or Spikes, but it does factor in the fact that they would switch in to an attack, which, as you say, a good counter should do. And the fact that it can heal up any damage done, or has a decent amount of life for upcoming opponents, makes a really good counter. Mega Slowbro all the way baby. If you see an error, please, let me know.
Mew and Celebi both carry recovery on both of their sets, allowing them to not care at all about lopunny's STABs. Mew can threaten out with Will-O-Wisp, not psychic. Celebi sometimes carries status moves as well, but in all honestly is just fine with giga drain and recover.

Rotom-W is a check, not a counter. It comes in and threatens will-o-wisp after something gets ko'd. By and large its okay with dealing with lopunny.

Same thing with Landorus-T, it's a check.

Clefable doesn't need to ohko lopunny in order to beat it, it has recovery like everything else that beats lopunny. It does have a chance to ohko after SR damage as well.
 

Deltadromeus

Active Member
Mew and Celebi both carry recovery on both of their sets, allowing them to not care at all about lopunny's STABs. Mew can threaten out with Will-O-Wisp, not psychic. Celebi sometimes carries status moves as well, but in all honestly is just fine with giga drain and recover.

Rotom-W is a check, not a counter. It comes in and threatens will-o-wisp after something gets ko'd. By and large its okay with dealing with lopunny.

Same thing with Landorus-T, it's a check.

Clefable doesn't need to ohko lopunny in order to beat it, it has recovery like everything else that beats lopunny. It does have a chance to ohko after SR damage as well.
Thank you. I have never run Mew or Celebi, and I have never faced them (I really only play Battle Spot) so I don't know what they have. I'm not factoring Stealth Rock or Spikes into this simply because I'm looking for raw damage.
 

ampfire101

Well-Known Member
Countering Mega Lopunny

With highly buffed Attack and Speed and the ability to hit Ghost- types, it's far more difficult to counter. Talonflame again is a solution here as it can use Brave Bird to KO it, but faces taking a little more damage from Fake Out before killing the rabbit. Mega Pinsir can utilize Quick Attack for some super-effective priority in the same respect. Some extremely fast Megas can OHKO it rather easily, like Mega Alakazam and Mega Beedrill. On the contrary, defending is also an option. Klefki can use Thunder Wave to hinder Mega Lopunny's speed, and simply keep attacking with Dazzling Gleam, whereas Weezing can use Will-o-Wisp to hinder its attacking stat, while using Stockpile + Pain Split to regain health, using Protect against High Jump Kick, or Spite to put the rabbit in a tough spot to use its most common STAB moves. Without its speed and attack, the bunny is useless and cannot function well in competitive play. Focus on blasting Mega Lopunny into submission or inflicting status and it shouldn't be too hard to counter.
 

Karxrida

Lost in the Waves
Countering Mega Lopunny

With highly buffed Attack and Speed and the ability to hit Ghost- types, it's far more difficult to counter. Talonflame again is a solution here as it can use Brave Bird to KO it, but faces taking a little more damage from Fake Out before killing the rabbit. Mega Pinsir can utilize Quick Attack for some super-effective priority in the same respect. Some extremely fast Megas can OHKO it rather easily, like Mega Alakazam and Mega Beedrill. On the contrary, defending is also an option. Klefki can use Thunder Wave to hinder Mega Lopunny's speed, and simply keep attacking with Dazzling Gleam, whereas Weezing can use Will-o-Wisp to hinder its attacking stat, while using Stockpile + Pain Split to regain health, using Protect against High Jump Kick, or Spite to put the rabbit in a tough spot to use its most common STAB moves. Without its speed and attack, the bunny is useless and cannot function well in competitive play. Focus on blasting Mega Lopunny into submission or inflicting status and it shouldn't be too hard to counter.
Weezing is unviable and Pain Split is an unreliable recovery option.
 

ger9119

Well-Known Member
countering mega lopunny

with highly buffed attack and speed and the ability to hit ghost- types, it's far more difficult to counter. Talonflame again is a solution here as it can use brave bird to ko it, but faces taking a little more damage from fake out before killing the rabbit. Mega pinsir can utilize quick attack for some super-effective priority in the same respect. Some extremely fast megas can ohko it rather easily, like mega alakazam and mega beedrill. On the contrary, defending is also an option. Klefki can use thunder wave to hinder mega lopunny's speed, and simply keep attacking with dazzling gleam, whereas weezing can use will-o-wisp to hinder its attacking stat, while using stockpile + pain split to regain health, using protect against high jump kick, or spite to put the rabbit in a tough spot to use its most common stab moves. Without its speed and attack, the bunny is useless and cannot function well in competitive play. Focus on blasting mega lopunny into submission or inflicting status and it shouldn't be too hard to counter.
talonflame/pinsir/alakazam/beedrill are not counters


if a pokemon can not switch in on a move it is not a counter, it"s a check.

It's not that difficult to understand


If keys tries to para it pre mega there's limber and it still takes a big fight from fighting stabs, that's a check.
 
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