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Community POTW #085

Discussion in 'POTW Collaboration' started by Serebii, Jul 1, 2018.

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  1. Serebii

    Serebii And, as if by magic, the webmaster appeared... Staff Member Admin

  2. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    Question: Can we still submit sets for doubles and/or Battle Spot or is PotW showdown singles only from now on? The last three articles didn't have any doubles section whatsoever, despite Alolan Exeggutor and especially Tapu Fini having plenty of utility in doubles.
     
    Archstaraptor likes this.
  3. Local Maple

    Local Maple Active Member

    I noticed something off about Exeggutor too. It was as if the writer took his data from Smogon’s movesets rather than from here. And he ignored Murkrow when it has Prankster viability which wasn’t just Honchrow mini.
     
    Archstaraptor and Cometstarlight like this.
  4. Wakerra

    Wakerra Pokemon Breeder

    Ah, Blissey is one of the best and original Tankers out there. Blissey's strengths lie in her HP, Sp Def and Sp Att, but her low Def stat leaves her wide open to super effective Fighting moves. It also doesn't help that Blissey's normal level up move pool does not include ANY Sp. Attack moves, which have to taught either by TM, breeding, prior evolution, or tutor.

    Blissey's Abilities also leave it open to play a variety of roles, whether she's used in multi battle formats or solo, and just what offensive moves one may decide to put on her. Natural Cure and Healer are great options, but easily counter productive if one plans to run Aroma Therapy or Heal Bell, in which case a Serene Grace may be a good option while running something like Water Pulse or Flamethrower/Fire Blast.

    I tend to EV spread my Blissey with a max on Def, while secondaring either Sp Att or Sp Def depending on what the focus is. Total Tanky Supportive Blissey would be maxed Defs and excess in HP, where-as a Trolling Blissey would be more Def, Sp Att with excess in either HP or Sp Def.

    Move options really depend on how you want to run your Blissey. If she's going in for Support on a multi battle format, Heal Bell/Aromatheorapy, Soft Boiled, Helping Hand and a Sp Attack STAB move like Hyper Voice is a good option to run, but Blissey's big move pool and variety in Abilities leave a lot of options for this type of set up, depending on what you plan to run on the rest of your team. Trolling Blissey can be nasty with the new move Laser Focus. Having a beefy tanky Bliss can pretty much guaruntee you can land that next hit with a Crit, and if you couple it with Serene Grace and any of her various secondary effect moves, you can easily give yourself an edge.

    Held Item options really just depend on your play. Leftovers can help with Support/Tanky Blissey, King's Rock and Serene Grace (YES IT DOES COMBINE BULBA SAYS SO GEN V AND ON) for Trolling Blissey, or even Z-Crystal, the possibilities are endless and really just depend on how you plan to use her/who you use her with.
     
  5. Wakerra

    Wakerra Pokemon Breeder

    Not to be salty or anything, but the two/three times I worked hard on posting my experienced battle expertise on these POTW threads, NOTHING was taken into consideration. I had some great feedback and excellent strategies that I killed with. I do have to wonder just what the writer is pulling their material from, as it doesn't seem to be all that well linked to these threads? Am I just wasting my time and research posting here?
     
    Archstaraptor likes this.
  6. Local Maple

    Local Maple Active Member

    I don’t run Chansey or Blissey due to the prevalence of physical attackers. But if I were, it would be in Doubles next to a Guard Split Shuckle. And as this is Doubles, Healer will be preferred over Serene Grace, as a substitute for Heal Bell/Aromatherapy.
    With so low of offenses, damage will most often come via Toxic and Seismic Toss. If you want to be crazy and take advantage of their bulk and recovery, Hail can work as a pseudo-status and run Flamethrower for Ice types. But with Serene Grace, you can raise offenses with Charge Beam, or have higher chances to inflict status with Blizzard/Ice Beam (this is Doubles for Blizzard; also Hail makes Blizzard have perfect accuracy), Thunder (TBolt I think is only 10% compared to 30%), or Flamethrower (more PP). Shadow Ball and Psychic have chances to lower Sp.Def on top of Charge Beam. For physical sets in Trick Room (or Speed Swap), Rock Slide for 60% individual flinches is possible. I have also seen Blissey with Z-Snatch into Belly Drum or Coil before Rock Slide hax.
    Since this is supposed to be a wall, Softboiled or Rest are the best recovery options. Moves that make it more annoying like Minimize, Calm Mind, and Defense Curl can also help.
    Chansey always prefers Evioite, but Blissey has access to Chesto Resto with Recycle. On Chansey, Heal Pulse for an ally is also an option; Blissey might get 4-moveslot syndrome.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  7. Local Maple

    Local Maple Active Member

    Almost none of mine were considered for PotW. I posted offensive and supportive Murkrow, several others, offered Z-Status moves that can benefit the user while not changing its moveset... I’m most proud of my Z-Spite Stall-Lunala (also had Cosmic Power, Night Daze, and Rest, with Toxic Spikes and Memento allies), which didn’t get featured here.
    BUT when I compared literally everything from Exeggutor’s PotW to Smogon, the similarities are extremely close. If I had time, I’d compare more.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
    Archstaraptor likes this.
  8. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    I just compared, and you're right. Three sets in the Exeggutor article, and all three are EXACT copies from the sets on Smogon. Same items, same EV spreads, same natures, same movesets. Isn't that just plagiarism?
     
    Local Maple likes this.
  9. Local Maple

    Local Maple Active Member

    I believe so. And to think of that unique set within this forum with toxic... I would have run A-Exeggutor with Curse, Harvest Maranga, Trick Room ally (Triage Floral Healing Comfey), into a self-sustaining offensive tank.
    Smogon isn’t the only moveset source out there. I was hoping PotW to show the variety within a Pokémon; not just how to run it how everybody else does. As my YouTube channel shows, I have made a team that makes Trapinch not even a 2HKO from Hydro Pump Suicune! And a Blacephalon that should have been banned before Snorlax in Smogon Doubles OU due to beating a ScarfChomp with 120%+ HP on a resisted split Damage!
     
  10. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    Excuse from the Psynergy on Discord is that they only write them with 4 people, they have hard deadlines unlike Smogon, and some pokémon just don't have that many sets... I don't agree with it but that's what Psynergy says on Discord.

    Not sure if OHKOing ScarfChomp with Blacephalon deems it banworthy tbh, it depends on a lot more than that and I don't know the context. I've got a Typhlosion setup I run which can OHKO Mega Salamence, Tapu Fini, and Cresselia with Eruption in split damage after one turn of setup and it's not broken because there are several ways it can fall apart, and it occasionally does.
     
  11. Mestorn

    Mestorn Wandering Battler

    Ah Blissey and Chansey. For generations they have been the go to Standard for Sponge. And with the highest HP in the game and Base 135/105 SDEF respectively, attacking them on the Special front is exercise in futility for all but the strongest of Special Attackers. However, thanks to Eviolite, Chansey has stolen Blissey's crown. Chansey is so much more durable than Blissey with Eviolite, its not funny, except maybe in an ironic sense.

    Why Chansey?
    +Higher Physical and Special Bulk with Eviolite -the numbers don't lie, Chansey takes hits better than Blissey with Eviolite:
    252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 261-307 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 357-420 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 304-358 (43.3 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 370-436 (51.8 - 61%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers

    +Weaknesses are easier to play around -Yes, Knock Off is problematic. Yes, any item tomfoolery hobbles Chansey. However, such strategies tend to be rare [Trick, Switcheroo, Magician, Thief, etc.] or predictable [Knock Off].
    +Reliability -Chansey has essentially one set, but it is a very good set.

    And with Walls, being able to stall out that extra hit can be immense in regards to Toxic damage and or stalling.

    The Classic Egg
    Chansey
    Item: Eviolite
    Ability: Natural Cure
    -Aromatherapy/Stealth Rock
    -Softboiled/Wish
    -Seismic Toss
    -Toxic
    Nature: Bold (+DEF, -ATK)
    EVs: 252 HP/244 DEF/12 SDEF

    Classic Clerical Chansey. Aromatherapy is great for curing your team of Status, while Stealth Rock starts the Chip Damage game. Seismic Toss is mandatory, preventing Chansey from being complete Taunt bait while doing reliable damage. Softboiled gives Chansey personal recover, while Wish allows Chansy to bring back a weakened teammate from the brink back to fully healthy. Toxic rounds out the set, being the standard walls Standby and putting all of Chansey's foes on a timer until knockout. Natural Cure is great for opposing Toxic users, while Eviolite is mandatory for giving Chansey its Edge

    Why Blissey?
    +Less Reliance on Item -Blissey can run basically any item it wishes, unlike Chansey who is shoehorned into Eviolite. This gives Blissey a bunch of options, including Shed Shell for guaranteed running away, Leftovers to mitigate chip damage like Sandstorm, Hail, etc, a power boosting item for the rare offensive set, etc.
    +More flexible offense -Blissey's SATK, while a meager base 75, is actually viable, as opposed to Chansey's unuseable base 35. That means Blissey can turn away from Seismic Toss and look to other options, prevent it from being Gengar/Ghost with Substitute bait (though to be fair, unless it is cursing, Gengar can't really due anything to Chansey or Blissey either).

    Ardent Egg
    Blissey
    Item: Leftovers
    Ability: Natural Cure/Serene Grass
    -Calm Mind
    -Softboiled
    -Substitute/Toxic
    -Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Flamethrower/Dazzling Gleam
    Nature: Bold (+DEF, -ATK)
    EVs: 252 HP/252 DEF/4 SDEF

    Calm Mind Blissey. Calm Mind actually works well with Blissey, allowing it to setup to punch through bulkier threats, while countering any special sweeper not using Tail Glow who think they can boost and pass through Blissey (few Special Attackers can boost fast enough to brute force their way past Blissey)
    I.E.
    252+ SpA Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 86-102 (12 - 14.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
    +2 252+ SpA Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 114-135 (15.9 - 18.9%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +4 252+ SpA Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 129-152 (18 - 21.2%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Softboiled is for Recovery. Substitute is for protection while setting up (all Sound Based moves (except Sing) are special, so Blissey's Subs are not easily broken by Special Attacks), while Toxic enables Blissey to do damage while setting up. Attack move is up to personal preference: each of those moves have a good chance of finding something 4x weak to it that even Blissey can exploit. Alternatively, you could throw out Toxic/Substitute for a second offensive move.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
  12. shoz999

    shoz999 Trainer for Fun!

    Kind of dislike Chansey being better than Blissey to be honest. Evolutions are supposed to be stronger variants then there previous forms but Chansey with Eviolite breaks that type of lore. Anyway I got four types of sets for Blissey, can you guess which one is the most annoying?

    Classic Blissey
    Blissey
    Item: Leftovers/Assault Vest/Focus Sash
    252 HP/252 Def
    Bold Nature
    Ability: Natural Cure
    Minimize/Substitute/Protect/Reflect
    Soft Boiled/Wish
    Toxic/Sing
    Seismic Toss

    This is the classic stall Blissey we all knew as far back as Blissey from Gen 2 and Chansey from Gen 1.

    Quick Claw Blissey (Most annoying set from my experience)
    Blissey
    252 HP/252 Def
    Bold Nature
    Ability: Natural Cure
    Item: Quick Claw
    Soft Boiled
    Toxic
    Protect
    Seismic Toss

    This is arguably the most annoying set I have ever created against Special Attackers. If you ever thought quick claw was too random for strategic value, then you are very wrong. Quick Claw, out of strategy, is best used with staller tanks who have self-heal. I know this because I came upon the most annoying Cresselia set that would often get priority heals after protects and toxics. I never saw a genius use of quick claw in that way. If you don't believe me, try it out on some Special Attackers, maybe Physical if your lucky. This set is best used in Singles.

    Special Attacker Blissey
    Blissey
    252 HP/252 Def
    Modest Nature
    Ability: Natural Cure
    Item: Petaya Berry
    Calm Mind
    Endure
    Hyper Beam
    Shadow Ball

    This is pretty simple. It's a Special Attacker Chansey. I recommend this be used on Trick Room or Tailwind Teams.

    Suicidal Lead Blissey
    Blissey
    252 HP/252 Def
    Bold Nature
    Ability: Natural Cure
    Item: Focus Sash/Leftovers
    Toxic
    Counter
    Soft-Boiled
    Healing Wish

    This probably the way I play Blissey if I had one. So to sum it up, the one simple change, Counter, is a great set to take down any annoying OU physical attacker leads like Salamence or Gyarados. If your lucky, you can use Soft-Boiled to heal back and use it as a regular Blissey Set, poisoning and stalling the Opponent. If you really lucky, Blissey could use another counter.


    On an entirely different note. I've noticed a strong lack of Alolan Exegguttor's popular Power Swap sets on his POTW profile. I thought that was very odd considering that's one of the best and common ways of how he's supposed to be played. No offense but I thought the Draco Meteor/Leaf Storm set without Power Swapping those -2 stats onto your opponent already has huge flaws.

    Also I don't think it's plagiarism to take those sets from Smogon as that site is supposed to serve as a notes guide to other people but I don't think Smogons available sets are perfect and the Smogon Exeggutor set that was posted for the POTW profile is a great example of how flawed some Smogon sets are, especially Alolan Exeggutor who isn't being used to his fullest potential with Power Swap from the POTW profile. In fact I recall encountering a few Smogon sets that failed to recognize the potential of a Pokemon's strengths. Due to this I think whoever is in charge of the sets should make the sets based on the notes here, on the forums, first then look at Smogon to determine a Pokemon's power more clearly in order to prevent flawed or even inaccurate scaling of a Pokemon's strengths and weaknesses.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
  13. Locormus

    Locormus Can we please get the old forum back?

    It is. The excuse by Psynergy just doesn't live up. FOUR writers and the only thing that shows up are plagiarized movesets from Smogon and none from here. Take a look at the Honchkrow (no Murkrow lc), Armaldo (none of the movesets are from here) and now exeggutor.

    Just stop calling it a community thing "by the users for the users" - and especially the line "to get involved" is just deceitful.

    Or just stop this whole thing altogether. Enthusiasm by both contributors and "writers/plagiarizers" apparently is at an all-time low. The amount of pokemon one can cover during a generation is also becoming a huge problem. Do we really have the randomizer or should we just focus even more on smogon rules (lol, if you're going to steal from them it seems obvious) - and their meta?

    I already said that I was done contributing, but out of habit I still check the new threads and then this shows up. It's a disgrace. I vote for cancelation of potw.
     
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  14. Psynergy

    Psynergy Strong Winds Staff Member Super Mod

    I don't think anyone here is actually aware of what they're talking about to the extent they think they are. I'm not going to make yet another long winded post about everything because evidently the last several times I've done so was a waste, and this thread is not the place for that. Now we obviously aren't perfect, but before spouting PLAGIARISM you should understand that nobody has a trademark on a Pokemon set. If a Pokemon's only viable set has been established before, using that same/similar set is not automatically plagiarism. Especially if the Pokemon is actually awful, chances are there aren't many sets worth talking about (this happens to apply to most Pokemon that get complained about).

    I am also literally one of Smogon's Site Staff and take part in the massive process they have for creating analyses. There have definitely been times when a Smogon analysis has used a similar/identical set that's been established before (see: the entirety of their Battle Spot and VGC analyses). This doesn't mean Smogon is plagiarizing because Japanese players established Sub Torrent Hydro Cannon Greninja as a standard Battle Spot set first. Or that Smogon is plagiarizing because I wrote a set here first and then a similar set was used on Smogon later (which on rare occasion I've done myself).

    There's plenty of complaints I know I'm not addressing here, but as I've said before, I'm not going to get into a long winded discussion about that again.
     
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  15. SleepingGiant

    SleepingGiant Well-Known Member

    No. This is a metagame, and that means all of the strategies and sets are by and for the community, not the individuals. It's not stealing to advise what's been known for years to be good--that's true of every competitive metagame, not just Pokemon. Smogon does not own these sets. They simply advise them because they are good. Same with Serebii's staff. In fact Psynergy is both Smogon staff and Serebii staff.
     
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  16. Wakerra

    Wakerra Pokemon Breeder

    Then what is the point of creating a PotW thread for people to write their experience of movesets and the like if it's not going to be used? I, like Locormus, stopped contributing because I felt my input was being ignored. But I too check on occasion just to see what could be up next, and maybe even try again to post something from my experience that could be deemed well enough to be considered. Now I'm finding out that PotW posts aren't even related to the threads, rather ripped from other sites that have already done all the work. This takes away from the Serebii community and purpose of PotW.
     
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  17. shoz999

    shoz999 Trainer for Fun!

    Personally I think the problem is relying on too much for Smogon as a source and not looking at alternatives, such as the competitive fanbase's opinion. In fact one thing I've notice is that the competitive fan base's opinion on what makes a good set is actually quite different from Smogon's, which is I believe an attempt to collect every fan's opinion on what makes a good set into one set. There are a lot of interesting sets that fan's can come up with for a particular Pokemon that you really don't see on Smogon.

    Basically what Smogon advises is "good" isn't always the best. As I said before, Alolan Exeggutor's best, and one of the most fun, and commonly used sets usually consist of Draco Meteor, Leaf Storm, and Power Swap and if you know what Power Swap does, you know why it's such an obvious combo to those two moves. Some other sets not only say that Smogon is not always the best source but is kind of outdated at times, especially noticeable in the Decidueye sets. One of the top Decidueye sets consist of an Adamant Nature and Z-Tailwind yet Smogon still has kept the same set since the Sun and Moon meta, almost as if they haven't touched it at all. In fact one of the most inconsistent things I've noticed is that Smogon has trouble keeping up with the Trick Room-part of the meta. As most of us know, Trick Room is a very anti-meta move that allows many slow-speed Pokemon to take a jab at OU Pokemon who consist of fast sweeping traits. This is something Smogon has really failed to assess for a lot of Pokemon, both OU and below with how common Trick Room is becoming more and more often that Gen 7 has sometimes been jokingly called the Trick Room wars. Another example also would have to be the Chesnaught sets, which is generally divided into defensive and offensive sets. There is a strong lack of offensive sets for Chesnaught on Smogon that many competitive fans have listed and tested elsewhere on other forums which is usually divided into either an offensive tank or a potential Belly Drum sweeper. Some other Pokemon on Smogon that I currently use and are well-aware of there strengths and weaknesses is Golisopod. While Smogon did got most of the popular moves right in competitive, they got the items very wrong. Golisopod's most popular and most competitively-viable item often consists of assault vest, not choice band or an insect plate. Assault vest is not even mentioned as a possible alternative for Golisopod. Another is Kommo-O who is strongly lacking Special Attack sets relating to Kommonium Z. Kommo-O is the best Fighting Special Attacker in any kind of meta and this should not be ignored. Another is Lycanroc Dusk Form which doesn't even have any sets! Smogon gave some great depth actually to the new USUM Pokmeon like Blacephelon, Naganadel, and Stakakata, but there is literally no set for Lycanroc Dusk Form. People generally go for a more speedy nature for Dusk Lycanroc but I personally go for raw power, using life orb+tough claws, which can make Accelerock two-hit KO a lot of frail Pokemon like the Tapu's or even one-shot certain Pokemon like Alolan Ninetales.

    Sorry if I went overboard with the examples, a lot of these are based on my favorites but still these are just some of the reasons why Smogon isn't always a reliable, or sometimes even outdated, source for your competitive needs.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  18. Locormus

    Locormus Can we please get the old forum back?

    Okay, then answer briefly: Why are you (and other writers) ignoring the posts made by the people here - which you have. Especially when that's the entire point? By the users for the users? I think we're allowed an answer because that was the big gripe: We don't see our input at all, but instead see Smogon sets.
     
  19. BillyBobJoe

    BillyBobJoe Active Member

    Getting back to the actual topic at hand, Blissey and Chansey.
    As it has already been stated, Blissey is a great special tank and an overall damage sponge with terrible Defense.

    Positives
    HP- Blissey has the highest HP of any Pokemon, period. Even with its poor Defense, it can occasionally survive physical moves just through its HP alone.
    Special Defense- combined with its absurd HP, Blissey’s high Special Defense makes it one of the best special tanks out there
    Movepool- Blissey has a massive movepool, which is further expanded by its age and that of Chansey

    Negatives
    Physical Stats- Blissey has terrible stats on the physical side. With some of the lowest stats ever on a fully evolved Pokémon, Blissey won’t be doing anything on the physical side
    Low Speed- Blissey does have pretty low Speed with a base stat of 55. While that may not be an issue depending on your role for it, it can still be a hinderance
    Typing- Fighting types. Just Fighting types.
     
  20. BillyBobJoe

    BillyBobJoe Active Member

    Abilities
    Natural Cure
    : status is healed when switched out - Healing status is good. However, Heal Bell and Aromatherapy are improved versions of the ability as a move that works for the whole party.
    Serene Grace: secondary effect chance is doubled - Overall, an amazing ability in its own right. Given Blissey’s massive movepool, there are countless ways to use this.
    Healer: at the end of the turn, there is a 30% chance of allies being healed of status - Again, it’s overshadowed by Heal Bell and Aromatherapy. Unlike Natural Cure, this only works in doubles, making it even less useful.
     
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