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Community POTW #090

Discussion in 'POTW Collaboration' started by Serebii, Aug 5, 2018.

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  1. Serebii

    Serebii And, as if by magic, the webmaster appeared... Staff Member Admin

  2. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Nighttime Guardian

    Machamp isn't very good anymore. It's outclassed by Hariyama which has better bulk, a better speed stat for Trick Room, and Fake Out to activate its Flame Orb more easily. The only thing Machamp has over Hariyama is a slightly higher attack stat. No Guard Dynamic Punch was once a bit interesting, but when Guts-boosted Close Combat hits about 80% harder there isn't much point. Confusion just isn't really a disrupting enough status condition after the nerf to make that a worthwhile option, pokémon have more than 40% chance of not even hitting themselves once before snapping out of it, and that's not even considering their ability to cure it by switching.
  3. Mestorn

    Mestorn Wandering Battler

    Machamp, ah how have you fallen. Well, you were never that great to begin with, considering how OP Psychics were in Gen I, how many Fighting types outclassed it Gen V, the rise of Fairies and Talonflame in Gen VI... Though you had a good run in Gens II (Snorelax, Tyranitar, Blissey), III (Obscene Power, no good flying STAB), and IV (No Guard), but yeah the other fighting type options and numerous fairies running around are two definitive nails in Machamp's coffin. Confusion being nerfed doesn't help either.

    All Out Attack
    Item: Lum Berry/Choice Band
    Ability: No Guard
    -Dynamic Punch
    -Stone Edge
    -Bullet Punch
    -Ice Punch/Thunder Punch/Knock Off/Earthquake
    Nature: Brave (+ATK, -SPE) Adamant (+ATK, -SATK)
    EVs: 252 HP/252 ATK/4 SDEF OR 252 ATK/252 SPE/4 HP

    Outdated No Guard Machamp set. No Guard Dynamic Punch is fairly powerful and the guaranteed confusion can kill momentum and coerce your opponent to switch out or with a lot of luck, allow Machamp to bypass some of its usual checks. Stone Edge become reliable thanks to No Guard as well, meaning flying types cannot rely on a lucky miss with Stone Edge to get by Machamp (and Machamp can't rely on a luck Hurricane/Air Slash miss either).

    252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Blastoise-Mega: 153-181 (47 - 55.6%) -- 77.3% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 218-258 (57 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Machamp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bronzong: 204-242 (60.3 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Donphan: 153-181 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Machamp Stone Edge vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 180-212 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 194-230 (55.1 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Machamp Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 236-278 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    2HKOing most of RU unboosted isn't too shabby, though everything on this list hits hard enough to OHKO or 2HKO Machamp in turn. Bullet Punch is priority, allowing Machamp to pick off weakened opponents. Last move is up to you. Ice Punch hits Grass, Flying and Dragons hard, Thunder Punch puts the hurt on Water and Flying types, Knock Off deals with the myriad of Psychic and Ghost types that resist Machamp's STAB while hobbling item dependent Pokémon and Earthquake hits Doublade, Fire and Electric types not named Rotom hard.

    EVs are dependent on whether or not you are running Machamp with Trick Room (it is slow enough to be out sped by most Pokémon outside of Trick Room). Maximize bulk if Trick Room, Maximize speed if not. Lum Berry is getting a mention as an item due to Machamp's susceptibility to status moves (that are all 100% accurate against it -so Hypnosis, Will-o-Wisp, Thunderwave, Toxic are all Guaranteed to hit Machamp). Choice Band is for more power.

    Other Options
    Guts -Machamp hits horrifyingly hard with Guts and to be honest should be the recommended set. Flame Orb guts is the recommended set as Machamp is too frail to effectively use a gimmicky RestTalk Guts set. In fact, let's compare to the calcs up above, shall we?

    252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Blastoise-Mega: 276-325 (84.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 390-458 (102 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Guts Machamp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bronzong: 306-362 (90.5 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Donphan: 276-325 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Guts Machamp Facade (140 BP) vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Golisopod: 187-221 (56.1 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 350-414 (99.4 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 422-498 (112.8 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ Atk Guts Machamp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Cresselia: 298-352 (67.2 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    While yes, No Guard Machamp can achieve similar power with a Choice Band, it loses out on the near status immunity (since status moves are a big hassle for No Guard) and ability to change moves. While Guts is on a timer, its timer is more generous than Life Orb and offers more power and additional benefits.

    Fissure -NO. No Guard + Fissure is incompatible. Any Pokémon transferred from Red/Blue/Yellow is guaranteed to have their hidden ability which can not be changed with an Ability Capsule, meaning having No Guard and Fissure on the same Machamp is impossible.
    Poison Jab -Because Fairies are a thing.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
  4. XaelOstigian

    XaelOstigian Competitive...kinda

    Come at me Serebii Bros!
    Instant confusion paired with great power should not be underestimated. Either they stay in and risk losing the coin flip or they switch out and face repeated entry hazards and/or another Dynamic Punch. 100% accurate Stone Edges are nice too. I see your power argument in using Guts boosted Close Combat, but the defense drops would be problematic on a Pokemon as slow as Machamp. Still, a Close Combat Machamp would make for some awesome Jojo memes:
    BillyBobJoe and shoz999 like this.
  5. Local Maple

    Local Maple Active Member

    Don’t forget how DynamicPunch was nerfed in Gen7. Confusion is now only a 30% chance to affect the Target.
  6. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Nighttime Guardian

    The thing is, it's not a coin flip, the odds are much worse. It's hardly a dilemma at all. You stay in unless you already had a bad match up with Machamp in the first place, both because your switch in would usually also get hit by confusion and you're just giving your enemy another turn, and because most likely you'd actually inflict a decent hit back if you stay in and attack. The odds of hitting yourself are so low confusion isn't really all that much of an influence, you can just ignore it as a player. And yes, Close Combat lowers your bulk, but Guts-boosted Close Combat does tend to KO things that don't resist it, while Dynamic Punch wouldn't take them out so you take more hits in return which also reduce your bulk. The power difference is huge. You can reduce that power difference with items like Life Orb but a Life Orb does more damage to Machamp than a burn would, the damage difference is still quite significant, and if Machamp is burned it can't get hit by sleep or other annoying status conditions.
  7. shoz999

    shoz999 The Legend of Mudkip

    Machamp's Bizarre Adventure (Offense Doubles Trick Room Set)
    Item: Flame Orb
    Nature: Brave (+ATK, -SPE), Relaxed (+DEF, - SPD) , Sassy (+SDEF., -SPD)
    EVs: 252 HP/252 ATK/4 SDEF OR 252 ATK/252 SPE/4 HP
    Ability: Guts
    -Close Combat
    -Bullet Punch
    -Knock Off/Ice Punch/Earthquake/Stone Edge

    Honestly I believe Machamp's greatest strengths lie in Trick Room Doubles, being a huge massive threat under Trick Room while having enough attacking power to go for his defensive natures. With Protect and a good Trick Room Pokemon, Machamp will able to get both Guts and Trick Room setup at the same time giving Machamp enough time to take down plenty of Pokemon before Trick Room disappears. When Trick Room disappears, Machamp will still be quite a threat to any leftover Pokemon, or at least a somewhat decent bruiser with Bullet Punch.

    ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA ORA!!! (Offense Special Tank/Revenge Sweeper Set)
    Item: Assault Vest
    Nature: Sassy (+SDEF., -SPD)
    EVs: 252 SDEF/136 HP/116 ATK
    Ability: No Guard
    - Dynamic Punch
    - Knock Off
    - Stone Edge
    - Bullet Punch/Ice Punch/Earthquake

    Guts has so far outclassed Machamp's No Guard ability but that doesn't mean No Guard isn't a decent ability. With a 100% combined with Dynamic Punch and Stone Edge, Machamp becomes an outrageously strong Special Defense Tank with a staggering 225 Sp. Def thanks to Assault Vest. Assault Vest Machamp's greatest capability comes at trick room, sweeping or bruising many Pokemon and just when you think your opponent got Machamp in his sights by sending out Mega Alakazam after Trick Room is over, sorry but I got news for you. It takes two powerful psychics from a fully invested Sp. Atk Mega Alakazam to actually take down Machamp allowing some revenge capability for our Machamp here against any last minute Psychic Pokemon that have extremely high special attacking power. The reason why his set is called ORA ORA ORA!!! is because just like the character from Jojo's Bizarre Adventures, he's able to dish out some powerful supereffective hits, under Trick Room anyways, while also taking some hits in return.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
  8. BillyBobJoe

    BillyBobJoe Well-Known Member

    Out of curiosity, what is the “bad accuracy threshold?” What I am referring to is how people mention that No Guard makes Stone Edge a viable option, since it only has 80 accuracy. Is that the “cutoff” where moves with 80 or less accuracy are considered a liability, or is it anything below 90?
  9. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Nighttime Guardian

    There isn't really a hard rule for that, it really depends on your damage ranges, how much you'd expect to use the move, and on how valuable the move is for your pokémon. On Charizard Y I usually run Flamethrower over Overheat or Fire Blast for the extra accuracy even though the average damage per turn is higher for the latter moves. But on Charizard Y the damage output is so high that Flamethrower already tends to KO a lot of opponents, and in that case the extra reliability becomes more important. On my Typhlosion I actually run Focus Blast, even though the accuracy sucks, but it's the only option that really hurts Tyranitar, Heatran, and Trace Porygon2, but as STAB moves I run Eruption and Flamethrower. For Machamp Stone Edge is a coverage move. It's valuable coverage, but it's coverage that you're not spamming all the time.
  10. BillyBobJoe

    BillyBobJoe Well-Known Member

    Star Platinum
    Ability: Guts
    Item: Flame Orb
    Nature: Adamant or Brave
    EV’s: 252 Atk/252 HP/4 SpDef or 252 Atk/252 SpDef/4 HP
    -Close Combat
    -Bullet Punch
    -Dual Chop/Facade
    -Ice Punch/Knock Off/Stone Edge

    Probably not the best set idea out there, but this is my “obligatory Jojo entry.” The first two moveslots deal with the whole “hitting multiple times really quickly” thing, and Dual Chop actually hitting twice.
    Considering you will already be burned, Facade is a good option. The last move slot goes to whatever coverage move you want, with Knock Off also being utility. Like most of these sets, this is meant to be used in Trick Room.
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