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Community POTW #106

Discussion in 'POTW Collaboration' started by Serebii, Nov 25, 2018.

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  1. Serebii

    Serebii And, as if by magic, the webmaster appeared... Staff Member Admin

  2. ericgall23

    ericgall23 Pokémon Fan

    Yeah! It's good to be back in reality! Let's Go seemed too beautiful to be true and good! Honestly, I don't think that this game will beat all the other from the mains serie, as there is no connectivity at all with the other games (excetp one way with Pokémon Go, which ruins our security), and it not even compatible with Pokémon Bank, the service that all players pay for it to stay! This is a big flop and disappaointment! We are reviving the era between Gen 2 and 3, but worse now!

    Anyway, Ferrothorn is really cool and good! Great physical attack, great defenses! Also, Grass/Steel gives many resistances, and only two wekaness: Fire and Fighting. However, the Fire weakness is a big problem, unless there is Rain Dance on the field that may reduce damage (or Light Screen, since most Fire type moves are special)...

    Curse/Gyro Ball is a really strong combo to use, as the fact that Curse lowers speed makes Gyro Ball stronger, and Curse also add attack boost, so Gyro Ball become too strong for many Pokémon to resist in a few turns! Évidemment, not agaisnt all of them!
  3. Mestorn

    Mestorn Wandering Battler

    Ferrothorn -AKA death to the Bulky Water type. Ferrothorn is the near universal water type counter and the main reason why many fell out in Gen V (besides power creep). Even then that is not all Ferrothorn is toting. Its Steel typing is also a valuable asset against Fairy types, of which only a few possess reliable tools to take it out. Excellent defenses, a great movepool, anyone building a team in singles must watch out for Ferrothorn.

    +Grass/Steel typing -9 Resistances +1 Immunity is a fantastic exchange for two weaknesses (albeit one being a 4x weakness).
    +Defenses - 74/131/116 Defenses are fantastic and can take a great deal of abuse
    +Movepool - Offense, boosting, hazard setting, Ferrothorn has almost everything it could ask for
    +Ability -While Iron Barbs does not directly boost Ferrothorn's bulk, physical contact causing 1/8 of the attackers HP is significant

    -4x weakness -Fire is a major achilles heel for Ferrothorn and it will be maimed if not outright KOd by most Fire type coverage.
    -Slow -While this is a boon in Trick Room, out of it Ferrothorn will be taking a hit before doing anything. Only Stakataka is slower in common competitive play.
    -No Direct Recovery -Ferrothorn lacks any potent healing moves like Synthesis, Shore Up or recover, forcing it to rely on Leech Seed and Leftovers or Rest for recovery.

    Metal Durian

    Ability: Iron Barbs
    Item: Leftovers/Rocky Helmet
    -Leech Seed
    -Spikes/Stealth Rock
    -Gyro Ball/Power Whip
    -Thunder Wave/Toxic/Protect
    Nature: Impish (+DEF, -SATK) or Careful (+SDEF, -SATK)
    EVs: 252 HP/252 SDEF/4 DEF

    Standard Ferrothorn set. Leech Seed provides damage over time and recovery, but is walled by opposing Grass types. After that, you have your choice of Entry Hazards, -Spikes can regularly cause more damage but takes longer to set up, while Stealth Rock damages just about anything and is quicker to setup. Next is STAB move of choice. Gyro Ball can hit fairies, but has poorer PP and can be unreliable, while Power Whip has poorer accuracy, but better coverage and more reliable base power. Last move is up to preference. Thunder Wave and Toxic spread around your status of choice, (Toxic adding up quickly with Leech Seed, entry hazards, Iron Barbs, etc.) while Protect allows you to stall out for Leech Seed recovery and scout for moves.

    EVs and nature maximize bulk. Leftovers makes you more bulky, while Rocky Helmet combines with Iron Barbs will lose 14% (?) of their max health.

    Other Options
    Curse -Ferrothorn makes a passable Curse Sweeper. +ATK and DEF, and the cost of the stat Ferrothorn is already horrible at.
    Knock Off -Everything loves Knock Off!
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
  4. shoz999

    shoz999 IT WAS ME! SETETH!



    Background Information
    To sum up Ferrothorn, whatever bulky steel or grass-type tank you had, Ferrothorn could probably do better being a monstrous counter to water and fairy-types, being one of the few Pokemon to cause nearly all forms of metas to recommend that you have at least one fire-type move regardless if it has STAB or not. The other favorite Pokemon for competitive fans with a 4X weakness to fire was Scizor but it was ultimately Ferrothorn who caused such an increase usage of fire-type moves that sealed the fate of so many Scizor users lol. Ferrothorn is quite memorable for outclassing much of the greatest steel and grass-type stallers/tanks out there. In the Pokemon anime, Ferrothorn was last seen going up against Ash's Pignite as one of Cameron's Pokemon, Cameron being one of Ash's rivals during the Best Wishes era. Although Ferrothorn and Ferroseed only have cameo's here and there in the Pokemon Adventures manga, I do get a little nostalgic of seeing Ferroseed hanging from the ceiling of the Chargestone cave, a reminder of my first time catching a Ferroseed in Chargestone cave, entering it's shadow from below unsure of what Pokemon I could find in a cave full of electricity. I can still remember the cool little top-spinning animations it does in the Black and White games.

    Ferrothorn - Offensive Set
    Item: Focus Sash
    Ability: Iron Barbs
    Nature: Adamant (+ATK/-Sp. ATK)
    EVs: 252 ATK/252 HP
    Curse/Leech Seed
    Toxic/Stealth Rock/Spikes

    Ferrothorn has enough attack and defensive power to become essentially a defensive counter to water and fairy-types, while also bruising other sorts of types who may be helpless against Ferrothorn's good typing, like grass and poison-types. With Curse, it boosts it's already good Attack and Defense however for some, Ferrothorn's already good bulk is enough in certain situations and choose instead Leech Seed + Toxic as a mixture of recovery and stalling a Pokemon to it's doom. Thanks to it's good bulk, Powerwhip is actually a pretty good choice despite having only 80% accuracy as he's able to tank a few misses. For some people Leech Seed is good or possibly better than Toxic and instead want to use Stealth Rocks or Spikes. The huge problem with Ferrothorn is that he suffers from 4-move slot syndrome, meaning his roles are limited by his 4 moves. He has a lot of good choices but only 4 move slots to fit them in.

    Ferrothorn - Defensive Stall Set
    Item: Leftovers
    Ability: Iron Barbs
    Nature: Sassy (+Sp. Df/-Spe)
    EVs: 252 Sp.Def/252 HP
    Power whip
    Spikes/Stealth Rocks
    Leech Seed

    The set is as simple as it gets. Toxic/Leech Seed stalling and also a huge pain in the neck for water and grass-types. Ferrothorn is a beast-of-a-wall, not only does it has great stats to become a monstrously defensive wall but it has excellent typing that allows it immunity against toxic spikes, toxic and leech seed. Looking at this set, Ferrothorn somewhat reminds you of Shuckle, the difference between Shuckle and Ferrothorn is that even without the attack boost, a 120 Power Whip attack is nothing to gawk at against water-types. In fact it's partially due to such a set that it is almost recommended that every competitive team has at least a fire-type move, STAB or no STAB, just to counter Ferrothorn and a few other similar Pokemon with 4X weakness to fire.
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
  5. Lumavah

    Lumavah Eternity Engineer

    Yes, Ferrothorn. Might be 5th gen, but it has indeed become quite a classic wall. As several have mentioned thusfar, here are some pros and cons with using Ferrothorn:

    • Fantastic 74/131/116 defenses make this thing as bulky as they come. Access to moves like Leech Seed and Ingrain can help shore up that durability for lengthier fights as well.
    • Workable Attack of 94 and access to moves like Power Whip means Ferrothorn isn't strictly defensive.
    • Base 20 Speed buffs Gyro Ball to respectable levels, and precious few things can outspeed it in a Trick Room.
    • Grass/Steel is pretty good defensively, and only has 2 weaknesses.
    • With access to Stealth Rock and Spikes, Ferrothorn is a solid choice when it comes to entry hazard setup. It also has a flexible support/status move pool to tailor for your team.
    • Iron Barbs is a decent ability that can be stacked with a Rocky Helmet for respectable chip damage against physical attackers.
    • Those 2 weaknesses? Fire and Fighting, with the former being 4x effective, and these types are among the most common offensively. It's borderline unheard of for most teams to not include those types at least as coverage moves.
    • Base 20 Speed will out slow almost everything else in the game. Outside of Trick Room, you're always taking the first hit.
    • Despite a few odd-end tricks Ferrothorn has up its vines, it's still largely predictable in the competitive scene.

    Suggested Set:
    Ability - Iron Barbs
    Item - Leftovers
    Nature - Careful
    EVs - 252 HP, 84 Def, 168 SpD
    Stealth Rocks
    Leech Seed
    Power Whip

    A fairly standard set, a Ferrothorn specced out this way is designed to simply wall, setting up the one-and-done Stealth Rocks in the process. Leftover recovery with Leech Seed and Protect allows Ferrothorn to stall opponents while passively healing each turn, while Power Whip both prevents Ferrothorn from being taunt bait and hits most Ground/Rock/Water Pokemon respectably hard. The EV distribution helps confer a nice, rounded bulk while maximizing HP.

    Other Options:
    Thunder Wave is a popular move, useful for crippling enemies on the switch and for the Paralysis procs giving you a free turn of recovery. Curse is a fantastic buffing move, boosting Ferrothorn's workable Attack and fantastic Defense for virtually no cost (let's be real, your Ferrothorn was going last anyways). Spikes is an alternative to Stealth Rocks, doing more consistent damage on the switch across the board, though it requires multiple turns of set up to get the biggest pay off and doesn't hit Flying/Levitating Pokemon. Ingrain is a bit of a niche selection, which prevents opponents from phasing Ferrothorn while providing yet another source of recovery, though if you're not very careful with it, it allows your opponent to switch something in that'll set up on it all day then sweep your team. Explosion offers a "nuclear option" for a Ferrothorn close to death, potentially catching an opponent by surprise with a very hard hit. Lastly, Worry Seed can be used if you wish to negate a troublesome ability.

    Team Options:
    You can create an offensively inclined Ferrothorn if you're planning to run a Trick Room team. Ferrothorn's "speed" will be borderline uncontested, while being so bulky that it can shake off most attacks thrown its way. Alternatively, a cleric with Heal Bell/Wish can help sustain a Ferrothorn by clearing up any burns or provide a burst heal as needed. You'll also want something on your team that can counter enemy Grass types, who can ignore Leech Seed and resist Ferrothorn's Power Whips. Pokemon who can inflict Poison through either Toxic or Toxic Spikes are another welcome addition, as the poison damage combined with Leech Seed can very rapidly drain HP.

    If you want that Ferrothorn dead right quick; Fire type attacks. Even a non-STAB Flamethrower from a half-way decent Special Attack stat will very easily put Ferrothorn in the ground, with heavy-hitting Fighting type attacks being a reliable runner up. Pokemon with Magic Bounce can also be a hard counter towards hazard/support 'Thorns; Hidden Power Fire Espeon comes to mind. Grass type Pokemon might not be ideal for fighting Ferrothorn directly, but they'll wall them pretty hard with their resistance and Leech Seed immunity
  6. HeatEdgeSword

    HeatEdgeSword Active Member

    I don't understand what Focus Sash could accomplish. Ferrothorn is bulky enough to take most neutral hits without too much issue even with just HP investment, and it wants to avoid taking super effective hits most of the time since it usually can't do anything to those that do pack super effective attacks.

    Anyway, here's the set for Doubles OU.

    Ferrothorn @ Wiki Berry/ Leftovers
    Ability: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 88 Atk / 88 Def / 80 SpD
    IVs: 0 Spe
    Brave Nature
    - Gyro Ball
    - Power Whip
    - Stealth Rock/ Leech Seed
    - Protect

    Power Whip is for dealing Water-types. Gyro Ball is mainly those that are weak to Steel, or fast Pokemon such as Tapu Koko. Leech Seed does its job as per usual; sapping some of the opponent's health to it. However, with the higher demand for Stealth Rock in Doubles OU, Ferrothorn can set it up for crippling bulky Pokemon such as Kyurem Black, Zapdos and Incineroar. Protect is important in Doubles, and Ferrothorn is no exception to that rule. Wiki Berry is for emergency recovery when Ferrothorn is in a pinch, and confuse Mega Scizor if it used Bug Bite on it. If Ferrothorn's running Leech Seed instead, replace Wiki Berry with Leftovers.
  7. shoz999

    shoz999 IT WAS ME! SETETH!

    Focus Sash for Ferrothorn is a common use to set up Stealth Rock/ Leech Seed or Toxic before Ferrothorn gets two-shotted by unexpected fire-type moves.
  8. BillyBobJoe

    BillyBobJoe Well-Known Member

    Honestly, Ferrothorn hasn’t changed that much from Gen 6. The moves that most people would use on it are pretty much the same. Same goes for its item and EV spread.

    However, one major change to the meta is Salazzle. Ferrothorn didn’t have to deal with being poisoned until Salazzle became a thing. Unless you are in Trick Room conditions, Ferrothorn will almost definitely be poisoned or have it’s health lowered significantly. Furthermore, since Ferrothorn is unlikely to have Bulldoze, Salazzle really only has to worry about Stealth Rock damage since it resists Steel and Grass
  9. shoz999

    shoz999 IT WAS ME! SETETH!

    You don't really need Salazzle's toxic to do the job. Her flamethrower is good enough to one-shot Ferrothorn unless it has focus sash.
  10. Kommo-o

    Kommo-o POTW Writer and Discord mod

    Please keep them coming guys! I will be in charge of this one (Due to personal reasons, I had to step down from the last POTW).
  11. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Perhaps we have different definitions of "common". Focus Sash had less than 1% usage in the month of October across all formats, and for good reason. Fire type moves are very predictable; due to the omnipresence of Steels (especially Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor who're 4x weak to it), most things that can carry Fire type attacks, do. You very rarely see a truly unexpected Fire type attack. But that's exactly why Ferrothorn doesn't need Focus Sash; its main role is to continue taking hits, not to endure a single hit that would otherwise 1HKO it. If something is going to KO Ferrothorn with fire, it's usually pretty obvious, in which case you're better off switching it out so it can continue to do its job later, as it avoids 1HKOs from almost everything else. Focus Sash is really an absolute waste on something as bulky as Ferrothorn since 90% of the time it'll do nothing but break on the first time it takes damage; it's better off with Leftovers since its lack of reliable recovery makes the passive recovery that much more valuable.
    shoz999 likes this.
  12. shoz999

    shoz999 IT WAS ME! SETETH!

    I guess my information is pretty outdated then if what you say is true. Don't know about you and it's probably just my imagination but I remember hidden power fire being quite popular back than from the counters I've seen and the charts.
  13. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    That's just it though, the things that carry Hidden Power Fire are pretty predictable, and they're things that are otherwise walled by Ferrothorn (or threatened by Scizor). It's very rare that you'll see a truly unpredictable Hidden Power Fire. I.e., you can expect most Greninja to carry it specifically to try to muscle past Ferrothorn.

    In general the things that want Focus Sash to set hazards are "Suicide Leads"; things that are fast and frail, that outspeed, take the hit with Focus Sash, and then get a second attack before being KO'ed. Suicide Leads started falling out favor since Gen 5 though due to Team Preview, and dedicated Suicide Leads really fell out of favor in Gen 6 since Defog rendered the old plan of Suicide Lead + Spinblocking somewhat dated since Defog could bypass that. Ferrothorn has the bulk to take a hit or two from all but fire type attacks, and when you're not readily being 1HKO'ed, Focus Sash tends to be a waste since any non-lethal hit still breaks the Sash, and then Ferrothorn's left with nothing.
    shoz999 likes this.
  14. shoz999

    shoz999 IT WAS ME! SETETH!

    Now I just remembered. Suicide lead. You just described over half of my focus-sash users. My favorite is Nasty-Plot Zoroark.
  15. Kommo-o

    Kommo-o POTW Writer and Discord mod

    Just letting you know, if you're listing Gyro Ball as an option, you should always mention to use a -Spe nature and 0 Speed IVs to maximize its damage output. Base 20 is really slow and Gyro Ball tends to have consistent power (100-150) against most of the things Ferrothorn will end up facing such as Tapu Koko and Weavile. The 0 Speed and the -Spe does have a difference compared to a neutral 31 Spe. Thanks for your input!
  16. Kommo-o

    Kommo-o POTW Writer and Discord mod

    Killer Draco in here pretty much summed it up. Focus Sash is kind of a wasted item since Ferrothorn is so bulky that most of the time it will be useless. On a generation where there is a great amount of hazard control on most Singles teams, it's not worth losing Ferrothorn just to be able to set up a hazard vs Fire types or Fighting types that could OHKO Ferrothorn and later end up with your hazards being removed easily by Defog. One of Ferrothorn's biggest strengths is the ability to set up hazards multiple times throughout the match thanks to its great bulk, typing and recovery in Leech Seed. You'll rather use a Focus Sash on a faster suicide lead like Greninja who can actually threaten most common Defoggers such as Mew or Zapdos and cripple them while keeping your hazards up vs the opponent. Ferro, sadlly, can't do anything like that.
  17. Kommo-o

    Kommo-o POTW Writer and Discord mod

    Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree on this. Ferrothorn has not changed much since Gen 5. The only thing it gained from Gen 6 is basically having access to a buffed Knock Off which in the end it is a minor utility move. Salazzle isn't really a common sight on Singles and it will most probably just end up toasting Ferrothorn with its STAB Fire attacks anyways. Thanks for contributing to POTW :)
  18. Kommo-o

    Kommo-o POTW Writer and Discord mod

    Hi, thanks for your input! :)

    Curse + Gyro Ball is an interesting combination but on the current meta where everything is fast-paced, it is difficult to pull out a Curse sweep specially with a x4 weakness to such a common attacking type as Fire. Ferrothorn is so common that even Pokemon such as Magearna, Greninja and Mega Alakazam run HP Fire just to lure Ferrothorn out and cripple it severely. Curse users have pretty much being falling out of favor on Singles. If you make a Doubles set though with this idea, it might be interesting to hear!
  19. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Nighttime Guardian

    Sun series Ferrothorn

    Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
    Ability: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP, 220 Attack, 36 Sp.Def
    Brave nature (0 or 1 Speed IV)
    - Gyro Ball
    - Power Whip
    - Protect
    - Leech Seed / Knock Off

    Minimum speed to maximise Gyro Ball power. 220 Attack EVs with a Brave nature is enough to OHKO non-bulk invested Kyogre with Power Whip, as well as OHKO non-bulk invested Xerneas with Gyro Ball. Because Kyogre is the most popular pokémon in the official Sun series right now, covering it is nice. Max HP and 36 Sp.Def EVs avoid the 2KO from Scarf Kyogre's Water Spout, allows you to wall any Tapu Lele, Tapu Fini, and Tapu Koko lacking Hidden Power Fire (Hidden Power is very rare on them anyway), and avoids the OHKO from Modest Venusaur's Hidden Power Fire in sunlight (the one pokémon frequently running it) with at least one hitpoint. Ferrothorn has to run from some pokémon. Life Orb Solgaleo can OHKO with Superpower, Groudon can OHKO with Fire Punch, Incineroar can OHKO with Flare Blitz (though it takes quite a bit of recoil from Iron Barbs + Flare Blitz), Ho-Oh can OHKO with Sacred Fire. Tsareena can 2KO with High Jump Kick, and Lurantis can 2KO with Superpower (and doesn't really take any damage from Ferrothorn because it's so slow), Toxicroak can 2KO with Low Kick, and Kartana can 2KO with Sacred Sword.

    Leech Seed is probably the best option in the last slot, as it allows it to put pressure on defensive opponents (mostly Dusk Mane Necrozma) which otherwise end up in a stall war. Knock Off may seem nice to deal with Necrozma, but Necrozma's bulk combined with Prism Armor means it won't do much damage anyway, and Necrozma frequently runs Weakness Policy so using Knock Off can backfire quite a bit. Knock Off is useful utility to remove enemy items, but don't expect it to do tons of damage without STAB.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
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