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Community POTW #132

Discussion in 'POTW Collaboration' started by Serebii, May 26, 2019.

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  1. Serebii

    Serebii And, as if by magic, the webmaster appeared... Staff Member Admin

  2. shoz999

    shoz999 Do you wanna try a good Tapu Cocoa? My treat.


    Moltres, arguably the most famous of the legendary birds.
    Moltres is arguably the most famous of the legendary birds, having made it's nostalgic and famous debut among olderfans during the Pokemon League as a mythological legend. Back when when I was a wee little skunk, I found the appearance of "Moltres" in that episode to be quite compelling as it never actually shows it's true form but as a bird made of literal fire, invoking a sense of legend and myth. Now that I think about it, perhaps they should give Moltres, Zapdos and Articuno "elemental" forms where they literally turn into their elements. That would be a fun upgrade. The anime's depiction of Moltres during the Pokemon League is my favorite with my second favorite appearance of Moltres being it's depiction in the Pokemon Adventures manga where it's one of the legendary birds caught by Team Rocket and later fused to create the monstrous Thu-Fi-Zer. However what really cemented Moltres's appearance in Pokemon Adventures as my second favorite is that the Legendary Birds join the fight with the Legendary Beasts against the enraged Tower Duo, Ho-Oh and Lugia and oh man it's amazing seeing Green (Fem Protag) overcome her fear of birds and riding Moltres against the very Pokemon that caused her fears in the first place, Ho-Oh. Seriously, Moltres is just an awesome Pokemon.

    Well-Known Trainers who caught or befriended Moltres
    Pyramid King Brandon (Games)
    Green (Fem Protag, Adventures manga)
    Sabrina (Adventures manga)
    Lawrence III (Movie)

    Dark Phoenix
    Item: Life Orb/Choice Specs/ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Pressure
    Nature: Modest Nature (+ Sp. Atk, - Atk) or Timid Nature (+Spe, - Atk)
    EVs: 252 Sp. Atk/252 Spe
    Air Slash/Hurricane
    Agility/Defog/Will-O-Wisp/Hidden Power Grass/U-Turn (Choice Items)

    Basic Moltres set. Monstrously high special attack, hits very hard, something even steel-types under rain dance fear, laughs at Earthquakes and fears those Rock Slides.

    Sunny Day Doubles Moltres
    Item: Life Orb
    Ability: Pressure
    Nature: Modest Nature (+ Sp. Atk, - Atk) or Timid Nature (+Spe, - Atk)
    EVs: 252 Sp. Atk/252 Spe
    Air Slash
    Solar Beam

    Is meant to be used with Sunny Day and is an efficient battler in doubles as long as you remember it's rock-type weakness. Moltres hits even harder with Sunny Day, has rock-type Pokemon covered with Solar Beam under Sunny Day and you have a choice of weakening physical attackers, taking away hazards and recovery.

    Defensive Doubles Moltres
    Item: Leftovers
    Ability: Pressure
    Nature: Timid Nature (+Spe, - Atk)
    EVs: 252 HP/252 Spe

    Moltres's base Special Attack is high enough that you don't even need to invest it for a bruiser/annoyer Pokemon on your team. The basic idea of this Moltres is to bruise and annoy it's Pokemon with Heatwave and Will-O-Wisp or Toxic. It's also fairly defensive thanks to protect and roost for recovery. Though some may opt for U-Turn.
    WishIhadaManafi5 likes this.
  3. Mestorn

    Mestorn Wandering Battler

    Moltres, the first legendary fire chicken. While its Fire-Flying typing is a double edged sword, providing crippling weaknesses to Rock, Water and Electric moves in addition to key resistances/immunity to Ground, Fairy, and opposing Fire, Moltres is a threat to be feared. Base 125 SATK is still solid and 90/90/85 defenses are not exactly squishy unless Stealth Rock is in play.

    Unstoppable Sunbird
    Ability: Flame Body
    Item: Firium Z
    -Sunny Day
    -Fire Blast
    -Air Slash/Hurricane
    Nature: Modest (+SATK, -ATK) or Timid (+SPE, -ATK)
    EVs: 252 SATK/252 SPE/4 HP

    Z-Sunny Day Moltres is a terror to behold. Firium Z gives Moltres +1 in Speed which in turn allows it to outspeed any non Scarfed/boosted pokémon that isn't in the base 145 club in addition to giving Moltres' Fire Blast an impressive boost, or if you are feeling risky, you can forgo the Z-Sunny Day for an overwhelming Inferno Overdrive which will punch a significant hole in even the sturdiest of walls... Is what I'd like to say, but any common Fire resist can comfortably tank the Inferno Overdrive unless it is Sun boosted, at which point you are better at relying on team support than having Moltres set it up on its own. Z-Sunny Day is an impressive cleaners to be used when the sponges have been weakened/eliminated.

    For the other moves, Solarbeam gives any Water or Rock type who thinks they have a chance a rude awakening (unless it is Tyranitar, Pelipper or Politoed). Final move is up to preference. Air Slash is weak, very weak, but it is a reliable Flying STAB, while Hurricane drops to 50% accuracy in the sun, it makes for an interesting counterplay against rain teams, using their own rain against them.

    Other Options
    Flynium-Z -Flynium Z Hurricanes lay the smackdown on nearly everything in sight and are a great one-time nuke. Z-Tailwind is niche if you want to try fishing for crits, but without Focus Energy, crits would not be guaranteed.
    Grassnium-Z -Fire types are known for the Grassnium Z/Solarbeam combo, which allows them to bypass their normal checks with a one time surprise nuke that isn't impacted by weather and Moltres can do it well as well.
    Reflect (Gen I transfer) -Reflect is an interesting option on Moltres for defensive sets, though you are usually better off with Will-o-Wisp. Niche.
    WishIhadaManafi5 likes this.
  4. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Master of the freak show

    At a glance, you wouldn't expect Moltres to have much use in the upper tiers. The introduction of Stealth Rock and general power creep we've had since Gen 4 really hurt his viability, and for a while he dipped into the obscurity of the lower tiers. However, recently he's found a niche on stall teams as a reliable way of dealing with Stealth Rock users that can force Mega Sableye out or set up rocks on it anyways, such as Clefable, Excadrill, and Heatran. It accomplishes this by virtue of its typing, which might seem pretty bad at first, but it does give it resistances to Fire, Fairy, Steel, Bug, Grass, and Fighting, and an immunity to Ground, which are all fairly prominent offensive types in the current metagame. It also checks powerhouses such as Kartana and Landorus-Therian, but it must watch out for Z-Giga Impact and Stone Edge respectively.

    Moltres @ Leftovers
    Timid - Pressure
    208 HP, 60 Defence, 240 Speed

    This is the premiere Moltres set you'll see in modern OU, and it acts as a unique option for stall teams that checks a lot of problematic threats such as Mega Mawile, Heatran, Clefable, and Tapu Bulu. The EV spread lets it survive Mega Mawile's Thunder Punch from full HP, and the rest is pumped into Speed to maximize its ability to abuse Substitute + Pressure to stall out threatening moves such as Stone Edge and Hydro Pump. Flamethrower is his most consistent STAB, toasting Mega Mawile, Tapu Bulu, Kartana, and Excadrill especially. Substitute + Roost let him capitalize on Pressure to stall out opponents such as Clefable and Heatran. Finally Defog is used to remove hazards from Heatran, Clefable, and Excadrill to support his team. Hidden Power Ground is an option to more immediately pressure Heatran, but Moltres struggles to find the moveslot for it, and Heatran generally loses to Moltres 1v1 anyways by virtue of Moltres being able to PP stall it. Using Flame Body as his ability might sound tempting, and it can admittedly come in clutch against opponents like Mega Mawile, but Pressure is far more consistent and key to his ability to stall out threats like Clefable and Heatran.

    This Moltres variant is almost exclusively used on stall, as other teams simply don't have the need for the niches it brings to the table. As such, partners you'll often see or use with Moltres include stall staples such as Mega Sableye, Chansey, Toxapex, Skarmory, Clefable, and Gliscor. Ironically, Moltres's fellow legendary bird Zapdos is a great partner as it provides a secondary (and often more reliable) Defog user, and forms a Pressure core with Moltres that can easily burn PP on moves like Stone Edge that can threaten them both. Lastly, Tangrowth deserves a mention as it checks Tyranitar as well as the Water-types that can pressure Moltres, but this core has to be somewhat wary of Dragon Dance Mega Tyranitar as it can easily overwhelm Tangrowth and power through Moltres with Stone Edge.​
    WishIhadaManafi5 and Ask like this.
  5. Aduro

    Aduro Mt.BtlMaster

    I would consider air slash on the annoying substitute set depending on your team.

    Moltres is in a decent speed tier and flinching almost every other turn while getting leftovers recovery and the opponent getting toxic or burn damage is nice for stall. Especially if your team already has options for steel types.

    Flame body is often preferably to pressure if you don't have will-o-wisp since your opponent is likely to be using attacking moves other than stone edge or rock slide. A lot of threatening UU mons rely heavily on contact moves (Zeraora, Bisharp, Haxorus, Swampert etc.)
    WishIhadaManafi5 likes this.
  6. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Master of the freak show

    Flamethrower is key to dealing with Mega Mawile in particular, who is a huge threat towards stall. Pressure is also important for dealing with Heatran and Clefable, as well as potentially stalling out Stone Edges from Tapu Bulu and slower Landorus-Therian variants. While both Air Slash and Flame Body are options to consider if you're running Moltres in UU (or another tier where these threats aren't present), in OU he really can't afford to run either one of them, otherwise you're better off using a more conventional Pokemon entirely.
    WishIhadaManafi5 and Aduro like this.
  7. Aduro

    Aduro Mt.BtlMaster

    Oh definitely you want flamethrower in OU, its dominated by steel types. Flame body has fewer nice targets in OU as well. But in UU air slash has some nice options and goes well with flame body.
  8. shoz999

    shoz999 Do you wanna try a good Tapu Cocoa? My treat.

    Your Articuno is no match for my Mega Ultra Chicken

    Okay but seriously, Moltres, Zapdos and Articuno having elemental forms like this image above of a god card changing forms. How cool would that be! Also I've always wanted to see Thu-Fi-Zer work in competitive somehow.
  9. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Nighttime Guardian

    Would be pretty awesome. Zapdos is the only one of the three still finding consistent usage. Moltres is just completely outclassed by Mega Charizard Y in almost anything it does, except trying to be physically defensive as Moltres is physically bulkier. Charizard gives weather control, is faster, and hits way harder.
    shoz999 likes this.
  10. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    I mean, it's worth noting that Moltres doesn't take up a Mega Slot, and Mega Evolution slots are in high demand, so Moltres at least has that going over MegaZard. Offensively it's completely eclipsed by MegaZard, sure, since Drought/Solarbeam can let MegaZard beat things that Moltres can't (such as Rotom-W) but DR's SubRoost Pressure can let it at least PP Stall some of the things that neither Moltres nor Charizard can reliably beat offensively, such as Chansey or Toxapex. It's just that this isn't a great niche in and of itself.
    Divine Retribution likes this.
  11. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Master of the freak show

    The ability to (literally) pressure rockers like Heatran and Clefable is 90% of the reason to use him. The fact that he doesn't take up your Mega slot is the other 10%. If you're building a stall team, odds are you're not using Mega Zard Y. You're probably using Sableye, although Venusaur, Latias, and Scizor all have some merit on certain stall variants. The biggest thing he faces competition from is Volcarona, who can also check Mawile and things like Tapu Bulu / Kartana, but lacks Defog, doesn't beat Heatran 1v1 without Hidden Power Ground, and struggles against many Clefable variants if it lacks Quiver Dance. Moltres's niche is that it can prevent most Stealth Rock users that pressure Mega Sableye from getting their rocks up, as well as checking a few various threats like Mawile, Bulu, Serperior, Kartana, etc, all without taking up your Mega slot. It is a very specific niche, and it's a niche only stall teams ever really have the use for (and not all stall teams at that), but it is a niche nonetheless. Currently he sits at a flat C on the OU VR thread, coincidentally right alongside Skarmory.
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
    WishIhadaManafi5 likes this.
  12. KyogreThunder

    KyogreThunder Call of Fate

    I think Ancient Power deserves a mention, even though it's weak and unreliable.
  13. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    The problem is that a neutral Hurricane does more damage than a 2x SE Ancient Power. There's three things in UU that Ancient Power does more damage to; Mega Aerodactyl (who isn't even 1HKOed with Stealth Rock, and will thus outspeed and 1HKO Moltres even on a Switch), Rotom-H, and ironically opposing Moltres. To emphasize how weak Ancient Power is...

    252 SpA Moltres Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 134-158 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 190-225 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Moltres Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 140-166 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 156-184 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Moltres Ancient Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 114-136 (30.4 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    252 SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pidgeot-Mega: 211-249 (68.7 - 81.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Moltres Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pidgeot-Mega: 154-182 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 211-249 (67.8 - 80%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Moltres Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 154-182 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    The lack of power really hurts it, and causes its niche to be practically nonexistent, especially since other options like Roost, U-Turn, Defog, Will-o-Wisp, etc. have more utility. Ancient Power's just really not worth it at all.
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