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Community POTW #142

Discussion in 'POTW Collaboration' started by Serebii, Jul 10, 2016.

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  1. Serebii

    Serebii And, as if by magic, the webmaster appeared... Staff Member Admin

  2. Golurk

    Golurk PokeRanger

    Volcanion at Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Steam Eruption
    - Fire Blast
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Hidden Power Ice
  3. Aduro

    Aduro Mt.BtlMaster

    If you're running 4 attacking moves I'd recommend an assault vest over leftovers. It can live things like a mega manectric's thunderbolt with max HP and no sp.def investment. Or even a +2 serperior's leaf storm. Specs and scarf sets are fun too.

    252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 222-264 (60.9 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 278-329 (76.3 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Anyway, about Volcanion:
    + Y'now how everyone argues over whether or not scald is broken and needs to be banned? Steam eruption is a bit more broken than scald, with 30 more base power although it will miss sometimes with 955% accuracy
    + Water absorb is its only ability, but its a decent one, letting volcanion heal instead of being hit with a water move. Its a shame it can't balance it with another immunity ability like lanturn though
    + A massive movepool, special and physical moves including fire, water, poison, ground, fighting and steel moves. It even gets explosion.
    + A solid 130 special attack can do tons of damage, and 120 Attack completes a mixed sweeper
    + 120 defence is pretty nice, and its not exactly frail from the special side.
    + Gets substitute, but is often outsped by stuff that would status it
    + 110 Physical attack makes a big explosion

    - Lacks support and boosting moves besides flame charge, can sometimes need a baton passer to back it up
    - No physical water moves makes it difficult to run a purely physical set
    - 70 speed isn't great. Even max speed timid its slower than mega aerodactyl and mega manectric. You might even want to see if you can consider if your set will handle certain venusaurs and magnezones.
    - key weaknesses to stealth rocks and vulnerability to spikes and toxic spikes

    Volcanion @ Life Orb
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 220 Atk / 252 SpA / 36 Spe
    Naive Nature
    - Flame Charge
    - Steam Eruption
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Explosion

    Anyway, this is a set that uses flame charge to get to +1 then sweep hard, then when its nearing the end due to residual damage, priority moves, life orb etc, go boom with explosion. At +1 Volcanion and with these EVs volcanion can outspeed Max Speed Jolly Excadrill and adamant mega lopunny. It also hits hard with both special and physical attacks.

    Countering Volcanion

    Volcanion hits hard, but that's about all it does, it doesn't set up and rarely uses status moves. So a really effective special wall such as Chansey is your best bet. However be careful as even bulky sweepers like Assault Vest Serperior will stuggle to live supereffective specs attacks from that titanic 130 special attack, most pokemon will take massive damage from something Volcanion can do. Its also weak to powerful special moves unless its wearing assault vest, leaving it vulnerable to mega manectric and serperior. Unless volcanion specs, Mega Tyranitar lives a steam eruption well in the sand and hits hard back with stone edge. The rare Pokemon that carry protect in singles such as gliscor can also be useful since they can check what volcanion is locked into. Basically if you want something that lives choice specs supereffective hits, tough luck. You're best bet is to take advantage of the choice item Volcanion usually holds and force it to switch out, and wear it down a lot with stealth rocks before hitting it hard with one of the several type weaknesses volcanion had.
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
  4. generic villager #5

    generic villager #5 Your ad here!

    When I first saw Volcanion, my first thought was, Hey, a Water/Fire type, cool! My second thought: How would one use this competitively? Then I saw Steam Eruption, a.k.a. Super Scald. I had a feeling this was going to be a high-tier threat. I was...mostly correct. Super Scald is a great move, and between it and Fire Blast, Volcanion has two devastating STAB moves. It also gets a great ability in Water Absorb, a spectacular Special Attack stat, and strong overall defenses. On the other hand, Volcanion is slow, and can't really tank well owing to a lack of recovery options. Both of its STAB moves are resisted by two single types, Water and Dragon, although the former has Water Absorb to deal with. It has a good Attack stat, but can't capitalize on it with its movepool. It's still tough though, so watch out.

    Here's a set I thought up, I think it's close to what others are already using:

    Item: Leftovers / Assault Vest
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
    Nature: Modest
    - Steam Eruption
    - Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    - Sludge Wave / Sludge Bomb
    - Earth Power / HP Ice

    Volcanion has a bit of a coverage problem, but this set does its best to address it. Volcanion's pretty slow, so a Modest nature with 252 EVs in Special Attack and HP is ideal. You can adjust the EVs between HP and Special Defense as you see fit, but this is the easiest way to arrange them. You should use Leftovers, since Volcanion is more suited to taking on physical attackers, but an Assault Vest might work since Volcanion's resistances are often on the special side. Steam Eruption is Super Scald, if you're not using it then I'm sorry for your botched lobotomy. Fire Blast is other STAB. The third slot should help you take down Fairies, since they are specially bulky and Clefable's Magic Guard makes it laugh off a burn. Sludge Wave is best for damage, and with the likelihood of burns from Steam Eruption, the poison damage from Sludge Bomb may not be necessary. Either move works here, though. Finally, Earth Power is nice for Electric types and other Volcanion, although HP Ice will take down Garchomp, Landorus-T, Mega Salamence, and Gliscor nicely, at the cost of some of your IVs. Other options might include Choice Specs or Choice Scarf, I've heard of experimental sets working with both.

    Countering this set is not as hard as it might seem. Alakazam does all right, since Magic Guard saves it from Burn damage and its superior Special stats make it a good matchup to Volcanion. Clefable can do the same, although its Moonblast will struggle to harm Volcanion unless it lowers its Special Attack. Volcanion is weak to Rock, Ground, and Electric moves, and there are plenty of attackers with those movetypes that outspeed Volcanion: Garchomp, Thundurus, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Landorus, Mega Diancie, and Mega Manectric, just to name a few. Guts users can even benefit from facing Volcanion, since it's so good at spamming status. But beware, because Volcanion can hit back plenty hard against most of this list.
  5. Karxrida

    Karxrida Lost in the Waves

    Your set is trash. Ignoring how Flame Charge is a gimmick, Volcanion doesn't even beat base 100s at +1 with your spread, which is honestly pathetic. Explosion is also a waste of a moveslot that could have been used for actual coverage or even Superpower to take out Chansey without killing yourself. Flame Charge hits for no damage even with investment because it's a Base 50 power move, so you're basically giving up your Fire STAB.

    Volcanion is not a sweeper, it's a wallbreaker, so don't try to turn it into one. You use it to break down balance teams.

    Also, stop slapping Assault Vest onto everything, especially something weak to Rocks.
  6. Aduro

    Aduro Mt.BtlMaster

    I'm not sure how much you've used Volcanion in OU, but to make it clear, superpower Volcanion isn't getting past standard chanseys. If you want to swap out explosion out that's fair enough, a purely special set could work better, but I wouldn't reccomend superpower as Volcanion already has stab for rock and steel types and there aren't many bulky normal types in OU besides Chansey. As for flame charge, its main purpose is to make up for Volcanion's middling speed, and with 36 speed and a positive nature (ie naive or timid).

    Even with base 120 base attack, flame charge isn't great, but considering its main purpose it just to give volcanion decent speed its worth having. Scarf or + 1 Volcanion outspeeds common threats to exacrill such as excadrill and Rotom-W, and unlike choiced sets, this version of Volcanion doesn't have to switch out after every attack, leaving you less vulnerable to entry hazards and keeping your momentum.

    Also, its not "slapping assault vest onto everything", its using on a pokemon with terrible support moves and decent bulk, making it tanky enough to survive an extra hit from key threats. That way it can avoid being OHKO'd by faster opponents like mega manectric and then do massive damage back. Its preferable to leftovers as Volcanion doesn't stay out for long without an assault vest.
  7. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    You never want Flame Charge to be your only Fire STAB, that's just a recipe for disaster. You'll miss out on KO's without Fire Blast. Plus, I'm not exactly sure why you think Excadrill is a relevant factor for trying to justify Flame Charge. Let's face it, Excadrill is never, ever going to want to switch into Volcanion because it's going to be obliterated by either of its STAB attacks. It may come in after a KO to check it, but that's it. Also, unlike, oh say, a Scarf, you can't exactly bluff with Flame Charge. Flame Charge is just pretty gimmicky since Volcanion is still slow at +1, and is outsped by most relevant Scarf users AND even non-Scarf users... especially with just 36 speed EVs. You also sacrifice coverage so... it's not accomplishing much.

    The problem with Assault Vest is it's never been just a matter of stats alone; often times typing and movepool play into it. Conkeldurr utilized it because it could use Drain Punch to keep itself healthy. Things like Goodra and Escavalier could use it well because their typing and special bulk allowed them to pivot in and out to absorb special attacks. With no support moves and no leftovers, being worn down is a constant threat to Assault Vest users. And when you've got a Stealth Rock weakness, like Volcanion does? Well, then you run into issues. Plus, Mega Manectric? Assault Vest only allows Volcanion to barely check it, since Volcanion is still 2HKO'ed, and Steam Eruption narrowly misses the 1HKO.

    252+ SpA Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 237-280 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    The burn chance or prior damage can secure the KO, but even so, you're trading a substantial amount of damage just to be able to check a few things... that's not really a good trade.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016

    REMARCABLE Well-Known Member

    Volcanion, the first Pokemon of it's kind with a unique typing that accounts for the issues facing it's typing if they were seperating

    It threatens Grass types which counters Water types (albeit it is hit for neutral) but it absolutely destroys what Fire types usually fear which is rock and offensive ground attackers.

    Volcanions stats are also pretty unique, despite having an incredible offensive typing it has surprisingly good bulk in a with 80/120/90 (yes despite how it looks this thing has a defense stat that is higher than the likes of Tyranitar, Graveler Blastoise and Bronzong.
    But it's true potential lies in it's fantastic offensive stats in 110/130
    Finally it has access to a move that is so potent it combines effects of 2 already scary moves into one
    Steam Eruption, with a base power of Hydro Pump, the chance to burn of Scald but unlike the initial move mentioned has a solid 95% accuracy and it gets STAB on top of that, this thing is no joke.

    -Fantastic typing
    -Great defensive stats
    -Brilliant Offensive stats
    -Solid movepool
    -Decent ability
    -Steam Eruption

    -Middling base 70 speed, it's not fast for a Pokemon with those offensive stats but decent on Trick Room I guess
    -Both of it's main STAB moves of choice have low PP, so it can be stalled quickly, it doesn't like Pressure
    -It suffers from the What If syndrome, despite the accuracy of 95% it can miss Steam Eruptions and accuracy of 85%/90% it can very much miss Fire Blast/Overheat
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
  9. I'm not sure how much you've used Volcanion in OU, but to make it clear, Superpower Volcanion is getting past standard Chansey just fine, especially given how many Atk EVs you're running. 4/252+ Chansey is always 2HKO'd on the switch from full health even factoring in the Atk drop, while 252/252+ Chansey takes a ~93% minimum from 2 Superpowers. That's also a 2HKO after just a little chip damage (i.e. Stealth Rock).
  10. Aduro

    Aduro Mt.BtlMaster

    220 Atk Volcanion Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 302-356 (47 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
    -1 220 Atk Volcanion Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 202-238 (31.4 - 37%) -- 80.1% chance to 3HKO

    The maximum from both superpowers is 356+238=594, Chansey gets 642 HP with 4 HP EVs at level 100. 594/641=0.92, that's around 93% maximum.
    The minimum is 504 damage, under 80%. In all likelihood Chansey will be able to take two superpowers and heal up after the second one unless its already taken significant damage.

    Here's a naive 220 ATK assault vest Volcanion vs. a standard Chansey with 252 Defence, 4 HP and an eviolite.
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-399294466 That was not 93% minimum.

    Even if it were, the volcanion a lot of attack investment would need, and the Chansey would have to switch in and take rocks damage, and the volcanion would need to use the niche move superpower, predicting chansey to switch in. Volcanion has enough coverage to make it practically impossible to find anything that can take two well-invested hits because of its offensive movepool and stats, but Chansey as close as safe as anything in OU. Maybe if it was max attack and/or held life orb Chansey couldn't switch in.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
  11. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    What about this for Sandstorm teams?

    Volcanion @ Leftovers
    Modest nature
    252 Sp.Atk, 252 Speed, 4 HP
    -Steam Eruption
    -Fire Blast
    -Weather Ball
    -Hidden Power Grass

    Volcanion for sandstorm teams. His primary role is eliminating enemy water types that can be problematic for sandstorm teams, and with a water immunity and a double resistance to ice beam it can easily switch in on them. Weather Ball hits Gyarados and most flying dragons like Dragonite hard in a sandstorm, and it's also your best option against Kingdra (except for Hidden Power Dragon), and Hidden Power Grass hits most other water pokémon for super effective damage. Of course there are pokémon that completely wall this, for example Chansey walls this set with ease. Get something else in your team that eliminates Chansey, like Scizor or Tyranitar, preferably with Pursuit.

    Here are some damage calculations:

    252+ SpA Volcanion Weather Ball (100 BP Rock) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite in Sand: 240-284 (74 - 87.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Volcanion Weather Ball (100 BP Rock) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados in Sand: 240-284 (72.2 - 85.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    These are fairly bulky pokémon that resist both of your STAB moves, and they're likely to get eliminated on the switch-in if you have Stealth Rock support. In fact, I think these are guaranteed OHKO's if they aren't running Leftovers because Sandstorm would chip away their last bit of health, if they survive the Weather Ball. Volcanion can also 2HKO Slowbro (and by extension Mega Slowbro) with Hidden Power Grass after Stealth Rock damage.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
  12. Karxrida

    Karxrida Lost in the Waves

    Life Orb, bro; it was on the set you posted (which we were talking about). You better be using it or E-Belt if you're using mixed Volc, otherwise there's no point.

    220 Atk Life Orb Volcanion Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 393-463 (61.2 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -1 220 Atk Life Orb Volcanion Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 263-309 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Min damage is over 100%. E-Belt can get the kill with Rocks up and still lets you bluff Scarf if a Chansey doesn't show up.

    220 Atk Expert Belt Volcanion Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 362-427 (56.3 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -1 220 Atk Expert Belt Volcanion Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 242-286 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Also I don't even know why you'd run mixed AssVest Volc (especially with that much Attack investment and Naive of all things). That's like the worst of both worlds.

    Weather Ball seems like a gimmick to me. It's probably better to just fish for a Steam Eruption burn on them.
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
  13. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    True, it's a bit gimmicky and Weather Ball needs Sandstorm or Hail to be of any use, but I think taking them out is better than going for a 30% chance of a burn and then being forced to switch away from their Earthquakes. If the burn doesn't trigger, they're free to use the opportunity to set up Dragon Dance or go for Earthquake. Volcanion is slow and Steam Eruption is only a possible 2HKO at best against them after Stealth Rock unless you crit.
  14. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    Which is exactly why it's not good enough to be standard. At best it'd be a niche OO given it's heavily support dependent to be of any use.

    It doesn't help that outside of Gyarados, Dragonite, and maybe Zapdos, Weather Ball doesn't exactly deal with anything that Fire Blast or Steam Eruption don't already, since things like Talonflame who sports a 4x weakness to Rock already gets mutilated by Steam Eruption, Mega Charizard Y will almost never be hit by a Rock Type weather ball due to Drought, and Mega Pinsir is fried by Fire Blast. You also have more issues with Mega Altaria without Sludge Wave/Bomb. And again, with no weather or the wrong weather will make Weather Ball literally useless.

    Weather Ball would be very, very niche at best. And not exactly reliable.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2016
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