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Community POTW #143

Discussion in 'POTW Collaboration' started by Serebii, Aug 11, 2019 at 9:31 AM.

  1. Serebii

    Serebii And, as if by magic, the webmaster appeared... Staff Member Admin

  2. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Nighttime Guardian

    Kyogre is simple. It's not subtle. It is a water type with a huge special attack stat that sets up rain with its ability, and with powerful water attacks like Water Spout and Origin Pulse. As a result, it is fairly predictable. But predictability and a poor speed don't stop it from being one of the most powerful pokémon in the game, because when played right anyone can turn out at the wrong side of a devastating Water Spout.

    Kyogre @ Blue Orb
    Ability: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 Def, 252 Special Attack, 4 Speed
    Modest nature
    - Water Spout
    - Origin Pulse
    - Ice Beam / Thunder
    - Protect

    Essentially THE Kyogre set you'll usually see in the Ultra Series. Primal Reversion might not benefit Kyogre quite as much as it does for Groudon, but the access to primal weather is necessary in an environment where Primal Groudon is popular to give Kyogre the ability to remove extreme sunlight. This allows it to force out Groudon under threat of it losing a lot of health bars at once to Water Spout, and often allows it an opening to get Water Spout off, or just nuke Groudon if the opponent doesn't have any pokémon left to switch in. Origin Pulse is there as your water attack if your health goes down, and Ice Beam is often preferred over Thunder to get a better hit on Rayquaza and to have a move left to hit Primal Groudon if extreme sunlight is in effect, leaving other team members (like Ludicolo or Tapu Koko) to deal with enemy Kyogre and Tapu Fini threats.

    There are some alternatives it can run. I ran Z-Psych Up in the Moon series to allow it to copy a Xerneas's Geomancy boost and get a simultaneous full heal for maximum Water Spout damage as Kyogre with a Geomancy boost is capable of planet-destroying feats, but having to sacrifice the Blue Orb for it isn't worth it for the Ultra Series. Regular Psych Up can still be considered if your other legendary is Xerneas, however Xerneas isn't quite as popular in Ultra Series as it was in the prior series, so it's a bit too situational for copying enemy Xerneas boosts. Plus, it's difficult to find space on Kyogre's moveset for it and having to be in play next to your boosting Xerneas leaves it a bit match-up dependent.

    Scald is sometimes used as a reliable single-target option to bypass Wide Guards, but is also difficult to find space for on the moveset.

    As for partners, Tailwind support is quite vital. Tailwind allows Kyogre to spam Water Spout much more freely as it isn't particularly fast normally, otherwise it always has to worry about taking damage from its opponents before. Tornadus, Crobat, Salamence, Lunala, they can all set it up. In the Sun and Moon series, Araquanid is a very interesting partner for Scarf Kyogre. Essentially, you use a U-Turn Incineroar to get Kyogre in safely and then use Entrainment on Kyogre (aiming for Incineroar) in that same turn. Effectively, Kyogre safely comes in after enemy attacks, sets up rain with Drizzle, and then immediately gets Drizzle replaced by Water Bubble, allowing it to then use its Scarf to spam Water Spout at twice the normal power, essentially classifying Kyogre as a weapon of mass destruction. Araquanid also hits hard under rain with Liquidation even without investment, offers Wide Guard support, and can even steal berries with Bug Bite or set up Sticky Web, and is also very bulky with a Wacan Berry. Unfortunately it's a combo that doesn't work quite as well in Ultra Series because you'd lose the rain from Kyogre if it loses Primordial Sea, and flying damage is actually more of a concern there with Mega Rayquaza and Mega Salamence being around.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019 at 11:39 AM
  3. Aduro

    Aduro Mt.BtlMaster

    I think Gen VIII Kyogre is going to do what its did in Gens III-V, slap a scarf on it and it will tear through teams. You can run it with calm mind in singles of you want to wallbreak, but in doubles that's risky due to the vulnerability to status and lack of recovery options.

    The primal one also has base 150 attack. The same as Mega Swampert, almost as much as Mega Gyarados. Might seem a bit pointless given the number of intimidate users in VGC, and Kyogre's ridiculius 180 Sp. ATK. But bulldoze and rock tomb are often useful on bulky sweepers, so offensive or mixed variants are worth considering.

    Fun fact. I once switched a shedinja into a kyogre, and it had HP Fire, probably specifically with Shedinja in mind. But it was primal kyogre... HP Dark or Ghost be a decent choice once Kyogre goes back to not being primal if it makes it into gen VIII though.
     
  4. Mestorn

    Mestorn Wandering Battler

    Kyogre, Titan of the sea and poster boy for everything that is broken in Ubers. Kyogre's power is as such that it can break continents with its STAB + Rain moves coming off of its titanic Base 150 SATK has been defining Ubers since 3rd Gen, making Kyogre the arguable best Pokémon in the game until ORAS where it was ironically dethroned by Primal Groudon. Make no mistake, Kyogre is always a force to be feared and that without proper respect, it will blow holes in your team.

    Wrath of the Sea Titan
    Kyogre
    Item: Blue Orb
    -Liquidation
    -Earthquake
    -Thunder
    -Ice Beam
    Nature: Adamant (+ATK, -SATK) OR Jolly (+SPE, -SATK)
    EVs: 4 HP/252 ATK/252 SPE

    Primal Kyogre can run a perfectly viable mixed set that blasts through traditional sponges who think they can wall it, such as Blissey and Pokémon that normally have an advantage against special Kyogre sets, such as Dialga, Palkia and Primal Groudon in its weather. Sitting at base 180 (tied with Deoxys Attack) SATK means that Primal Kyogre can completely forgo investment in the STAT and still have respectable power. Base 150 ATK is as good as normal Kyogre's SATK, allowing it to run Physical moves. Liquidation is the star of the show here, being a STAB move that lowers DEF, meaning that an unlucky wall that eats a DEF drop will find that Primal's attack hits that much harder. Earthquake provides valuable coverage, hitting Palkia, Groudon and Dialga hard (reliable 3, 2 and 2HKOs on each target). Thunder hits opposing Water types not named Palkia that think they can wall Kyogre, while Ice Beam hits the numerous 4x weak Dragons in the tier.
     
  5. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Nighttime Guardian

    It's not just Intimidate and its Sp.Atk being higher. It's also its special options just being better. When you have the kind of damage output Kyogre has you want spread damage to maximise destruction and not let Ally Switch, Rage Powder, Follow Me, or Protect nullify a round of damage. And it's also just base power. Kyogre's strongest physical water move is Aqua Tail, closely followed by Liquidation. Its strongest special water move is Water Spout, at about 66% more base power than Aqua Tail, and more accurate. Sure Rock Slide is alright, but Kyogre doesn't exactly have the best speed to maximise flinching with it (unlike Mega Swampert in rain). Bulldoze I suppose could work, but why not just run special and run Icy Wind instead? Also hits targets in the air and doesn't hit your partner.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019 at 5:41 PM
  6. Mestorn

    Mestorn Wandering Battler

    If we are talking about doubles, Origin Pulse and Water Spout are both blocked by Wide Guard, as opposed to Liquidation and Aqua tail, which are single target, so there is minor merit there (though so is Hydro Pump). That being said, as you noted Intimidate is a thing in doubles, nothing is immune to Icy Wind (as opposed to Flying types/Levitate pokémon being immune to Bulldoze and multitarget is preferred when using speed reduction moves). In doubles, I would argue special Kyogre is far superior, barring Surprise Earthquake sets intending to surprise slower Primal Groudons
     
  7. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Nighttime Guardian

    Even covering Groudon isn't worthwhile for Earthquake in doubles, Earthquake gets a damage reduction because it's a spread damage move, and you're hitting it on its physically defensive side. Modest Ice Beam actually hits Groudon harder than Adamant Earthquake, unless it's max Sp.Def max Attack invested Groudon (and even then the difference in damage is quite small and both are 3KOs).

    Wide Guard is indeed an issue for special Kyogre, but I don't think going physical really is the best answer to it. I ran Wide Guard Solgaleo in the Ultra Series competition in May and it is valuable, but some people do run Scald on Kyogre which can catch Wide Guard users off-guard. And if you don't want to run Scald you can also opt to go for partners with Feint like Toxicroak, Scizor, or Tsareena, or with Taunt like Crobat or Tornadus (which can also set up Tailwind)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019 at 8:19 PM
  8. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Master of the freak show

    Metagames other than doubles exist, and physically-inclined Primal Kyogre is quite a threat in singles. Even specially-inclined sets will sometimes slot Liquidation as the 4th move mostly for luring in and blowing away Blissey.
     
    Aduro likes this.

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