Community POTW #146

[Divine Retribution]

Fine, you asked for it.

Darmanitan @ Life Orb / Petaya Berry
Quiet - Zen Mode
252 Attack, 252 Sp. Atk, 4 HP
IVs: 0 Speed
-Belly Drum
-Fire Punch
-Psychic
-Focus Blast


​

If you use this set, you're garbage. No exceptions. But if you absolutely positively must use Darmanitan-Z for some stupid reason this extremely gimmicky, extremely terrible, and extremely outclassed mixed attacker set can be kinda somewhat fun in some certain circumstances that you will likely never encounter, namely a circumstance where you have Trick Room set up and a free turn to use Belly Drum, and no strong priority attackers on your opponent's team. Why you would ever use this when things like Reuniclus and Rhyperior exist is beyond me, but hey, you asked for a Darm-Z set.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-415113112
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-415117826
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-415121067

SEE? IT WORKS. Just ignore the fact that it did next to nothing and my opponents were all terrible.

 

[Aduro]

Every pokemonof the week you never post your own sets so realy how are you a Pokemon of the week writer?
This is the first week were you actually posted some number or stats to back your opinion you just criticise every week on every set saying its bad and not saying why last week the first set had rest but in brackets if you give it rest support which in doubles rest would be vaiable
And yes zen mode is rubbish but it would be nice to see some sets on them to see what they are like

Draco and the other POTW writers end up writing the article itself, this thread basically just a suggestion box. They contribute more to the POTW than the members here. Maybe it would be worth having Draco or another writer post the sets here for some last-minute suggestions or opinions, but they do contribute sets that end up on the POTW news page, rather than leeching off the forums. Draco often post calcs when he/she needs to make incorrect facts clear or when its needed to make a point.

The writers of the POTW thread are experienced mods with an interest in competitive play. I'm not saying I always agree with what I read in those articles, (for example I felt it was a mistake to leave out Doublade in Aegislash's POTW despite Doublade being a standout pokemon in UU while they made room for Kadabra in the Alakazam article). But generally the articles are well-informed and you can often see sets that are sensible sensible versions of sets in the forum thread if you look closely. Its just that some posts are well-meaning but not even slightly viable or helpful and don't call for much discussion. For example the post you mentioned in last week's thread, might have gotten a more detailed response if it gave useful details, but it didn't mention EVs, nature or even the proper item making it difficult to discuss.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Every pokemonof the week you never post your own sets so realy how are you a Pokemon of the week writer?
This is the first week were you actually posted some number or stats to back your opinion you just criticise every week on every set saying its bad and not saying why last week the first set had rest but in brackets if you give it rest support which in doubles rest would be vaiable
And yes zen mode is rubbish but it would be nice to see some sets on them to see what they are like

Draco is a far, far, far sight better than most of the random people who suggest random sets on the forum. I'm not saying that to be mean or elitist, it's simply a statement of demonstrable fact. That being said, I'm not sure why most of the other mods who are credited in POTW articles are on there. Half of them aren't even active competitive players, and the other half fail to stand out in the competitive community at all.

 

[KillerDraco]

Every pokemonof the week you never post your own sets so realy how are you a Pokemon of the week writer?

Were you under the impression that the PotW articles on the main site just pop up out of thin air? Things like this and this and this (and many others) don't turn from a thread on the forums to a full article on the site overnight.

This is the first week were you actually posted some number or stats to back your opinion you just criticise every week on every set saying its bad and not saying why last week the first set had rest but in brackets

Just because the whole damage calculation isn't posted out doesn't mean that it wasn't justified. There's a world of difference between "This worked for me" and "Focus Blast is necessary to cover Bisharp and Tyranitar who will Pursuit trap Alakazam 100% of the time without it".

if you give it rest support which in doubles rest would be vaiable

Then you missed your chance to discuss it last week since Manaphy's discussion is already over.

Of course, if you'd like to discuss my posting style, I'd be more than happy to discuss it in PMs where it's not derailing a thread.

And yes zen mode is rubbish but it would be nice to see some sets on them to see what they are like

I can't speak for any of the other writers, but if something is overwhelmingly bad to the point where it's actively counterproductive and doesn't contribute much to a team's success, then I don't really feel the need to cover it beyond a mention not to use it. Zen Mode's just too gimmicky. If Darmanitan-Z was an alternate form that wasn't contingent upon current HP, that might be another story (it still wouldn't be great though), but the fact that it only works at under 50% HP is shaky at best. Considering the base form's low defenses and the Stealth Rock weakness stripping it of a quarter of its HP every time it switches in, getting to 50% HP isn't always easy, since it takes heavy damage from most neutral attacks. Belly Drum is the most obvious option, but given Darmanitan-Z loses the majority of its attack stat and gains special attack, you kind of run into issues of wastefulness with the +6 attack... plus, you usually need to do it on a switch because it's not easy to try and set up with Belly Drum to the high risk that losing half your HP brings. Plus, with the massive speed drop that accompanies Zen Mode, you'll often have to take a hit before it can act, and if you have any kind of prior damage (most notably Stealth Rock), the below 50% requirement can often open you up to being KO'ed outright. A lot has to go right for Darmanitan-Z to be able to do anything, let alone be viable.

 

[Archstaraptor]

Couldn't Zen Mode be given movesets in order to access what use you could get from it?
I know people don't use it competitively, but I would like the idea to be entertained (under the pretense of SF Darmanitan not existing).

I will second this. If anything, I read a POTW article because I would like to take a closer look at the potential of a pokemon I would have otherwise forgotten.

Darmanitan - what's not to love:

• 140 base attack,plus sheer force,plus a life orb boost is absolutely hilarious.
• It has EdgeQuake and great fighting coverage alongside fire STAB.
• It has U-turn to make it a good scout for the player,
• It is fast enough to outpace any wall it would ever want to break down;

and,if it cannot break them down,it has even more options.
(taunt,encore,swagger,roar,yawn,bulk up,work up,belly drum,all can create opportunities for itself and its team,and endeavor for when entry hazards and recoil start to take their toll,to land good last-resort damage on something it would otherwise struggle to break to 2hko...etc.)

A lot of us are very familiar with the way sheer force works:hit hard and fast,both factors influenced by whether you choose to hold a choice item or a lifeorb.
Darmanitan still hits hard without sheer force,but it can be hard to justify the switch to zen mode.

There are definite scenarios where swapping your offenses around mid match would be useful - you might choose to run grass knot to get past physical walls like rhyperior (ohko without any investment) or slowbro (80 % chance 2hko without leftovers,without any investment,though the matchup favours slowbro) more easily,feats that would be difficult for the sheer force variant.
It's worth noting that a U-turn from a banded jolly SF Darmanitan deals about the same amount of damage,but with rocks on the field,you're taking damage every time you use it.
I mention both the above walls mainly to point out that base 55 speed can be good enough.Donphan,Quagsire, and other rock/ground types used across formats that wall Darmanitan - SF follow the trend of being rather heavy,very weak on the special defence and being outsped and threatened by Darmanitan - Z.

Not denying that screens / wish support / grassy terrain would be paramount for its use - Darmanitan still threatens more things in its standard form compared to its Zen mode,because it's faster.Combining the strengths of both forms,however,and effectively managing the form changes, would make it a more versatile threat.

 

[Auraninja]

I'm not going to push for Z Darmantian, but I thought it would be nice just as a perspective view.

Ultimately, I guess it depends on what the intent of PotW was used for. Is it more for giving battle advice, or is it more of a fun article to read each Sunday.

I don't want to impose on this, but I would like to see it. I can't speak for other people, though, so you can feel free to toss the idea.

 

[Divine Retribution]

I mention both the above walls mainly to point out that base 55 speed can be good enough.Donphan,Quagsire, and other rock/ground types used across formats that wall Darmanitan - SF follow the trend of being rather heavy,very weak on the special defence and being outsped and threatened by Darmanitan - Z.

You're only able to hit these things in the unlikely scenario you ended up under half health without getting outright KO'd in the process, which given Darmanitan's bad defenses and reliance on a heavy recoil move isn't that reliable. Oh, and you have to give up Sheer Force to do it. Trading 33% damage and lack of Life Orb recoil on your Flare Blitzes and Rock Slides for the ability to hit Rhyperior and Donphan in some circumstances is not a worthwhile trade-off in any circumstance.

Even if you do KO something, now you've got a Pokemon at less than half health with one of the worst possible defensive typings. You're sacrificing Darmanitan's wallbreaking prowess for the unreliable ability to catch some of his checks off guard, instead of relying on your other five teammates to cover these threats.

 

[KillerDraco]

Ultimately, I guess it depends on what the intent of PotW was used for. Is it more for giving battle advice, or is it more of a fun article to read each Sunday.

The PotW has always been a part of the competitive subforum.

There are definite scenarios where swapping your offenses around mid match would be useful - you might choose to run grass knot to get past physical walls like rhyperior (ohko without any investment) or slowbro (80 % chance 2hko without leftovers,without any investment,though the matchup favours slowbro) more easily,feats that would be difficult for the sheer force variant.
It's worth noting that a U-turn from a banded jolly SF Darmanitan deals about the same amount of damage,but with rocks on the field,you're taking damage every time you use it.
I mention both the above walls mainly to point out that base 55 speed can be good enough.Donphan,Quagsire, and other rock/ground types used across formats that wall Darmanitan - SF follow the trend of being rather heavy,very weak on the special defence and being outsped and threatened by Darmanitan - Z.

Not denying that screens / wish support / grassy terrain would be paramount for its use - Darmanitan still threatens more things in its standard form compared to its Zen mode,because it's faster.Combining the strengths of both forms,however,and effectively managing the form changes, would make it a more versatile threat.

The problem is switching to Zen Mode is not so simple as Mega Evolving or using Relic Song on Meloetta. Given it is tied to your HP, you don't have a reliable way to control it. The only way you can have any sort of control over it is Belly Drum, which of course has its fair share of problems given sacrificing half your HP is only really viable on a predicted switch since it opens you up for KOs. Plus, with that nasty Stealth Rock weakness, your hazard control has to be aggressive or you'll end up at 25% HP, which is VERY easily revenge killed. Any type of prior damage also throws a wrench into this. And without Belly Drum, you're at the mercy of your opponents to get you below 50%, which is even less reliable given Darmanitan's poor bulk makes it easy to just outright KO.

I mean, in the case of the Rhyperior example, your only option is Belly Drumming as it switches in. If it tries to "switch to Zen Mode" while Rhyperior is out, then Earthquake can pretty cleanly KO it.

44+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan-Z: 314-372 (75.8 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...And I should hope it's well known that the base form is 1HKO'ed, but I digress-

The fact that Zen Mode can only activate at 50% HP or lower is what truly damns it. If it was an alternate form that could be more readily toggled, you might have something there. Heck, even if it was an alternate form a-la the Rotom forms, it'd be another story altogether. But considering you can only utilize Zen Mode if it's lost half its HP... that's just a pretty big issue. To put it in perspective, with max HP (252 EVs), Zen Mode Darmanitan's activation can only have 207 HP at most. That's an effective base 33 HP.

The amount of support needed to be able to utilize Zen Mode properly is staggering, in addition to the fact that you cripple the usefulness of Darmanitan's base form due to the lack of Sheer Force and sacrificing coverage options. It's one thing to try and have a move to check your counters, but you really sacrifice Darmanitan's potential in the process to the point where it's counter-productive. As DR mentioned, you have five other teammates that can help Darmanitan deal with its counters, without minimizing its damage output. There's just too much liability involved in trying to make Zen Mode work, especially since at the end of the day... it's still a wallbreaker since it's too slow to sweep, and that much setup and team support just for a wallbreaker is a bit much, since wouldn't it be better to try and support a "win condition", i.e., a sweep?

 

[Archstaraptor]

The problem is switching to Zen Mode is not so simple as Mega Evolving or using Relic Song on Meloetta. Given it is tied to your HP, you don't have a reliable way to control it. The only way you can have any sort of control over it is Belly Drum, which of course has its fair share of problems given sacrificing half your HP is only really viable on a predicted switch since it opens you up for KOs. Plus, with that nasty Stealth Rock weakness, your hazard control has to be aggressive or you'll end up at 25% HP, which is VERY easily revenge killed. Any type of prior damage also throws a wrench into this. And without Belly Drum, you're at the mercy of your opponents to get you below 50%, which is even less reliable given Darmanitan's poor bulk makes it easy to just outright KO.

The fact that Zen Mode can only activate at 50% HP or lower is what truly damns it. If it was an alternate form that could be more readily toggled, you might have something there. Heck, even if it was an alternate form a-la the Rotom forms, it'd be another story altogether. But considering you can only utilize Zen Mode if it's lost half its HP... that's just a pretty big issue. To put it in perspective, with max HP (252 EVs), Zen Mode Darmanitan's activation can only have 207 HP at most. That's an effective base 33 HP.

The amount of support needed to be able to utilize Zen Mode properly is staggering, in addition to the fact that you cripple the usefulness of Darmanitan's base form due to the lack of Sheer Force and sacrificing coverage options. It's one thing to try and have a move to check your counters, but you really sacrifice Darmanitan's potential in the process to the point where it's counter-productive. As DR mentioned, you have five other teammates that can help Darmanitan deal with its counters, without minimizing its damage output. There's just too much liability involved in trying to make Zen Mode work, especially since at the end of the day... it's still a wallbreaker since it's too slow to sweep, and that much setup and team support just for a wallbreaker is a bit much, since wouldn't it be better to try and support a "win condition", i.e., a sweep?

Running substitute instead of belly drum would mitigate the risk in transforming into zen mode,and would provide a shield to attacks that would OHKO Darmanitan. Belly drum is crazy risky unless the user has bulk and/or sitrus,and as has been said already,zen mode would make no worthwhile use of the maximised attack stat.
You are both correct in saying that running zen mode hinders its sweeping capabilities.But what if this darmanitan took on a more supportive role,and was not one of the dedicated sweepers on a team? 140 base attack + 95 speed with strong STAB and coverage is great,regardless of items and abilities. The fact that SF darmanitan with a lifeorb hits with a more awesome power is undeniable,but perhaps it is overkill in certain situations,and moreover,people prepare for these sets alone.

A zen mode darmanitan could be used to effectively lure in threats to standard darmanitan,and by extension,threats to pokemon like standard darmanitan: fellow physical sweepers.

People expect a SheerForce set,they switch in a sturdy physical wall to stop it.And then darmanitan sets up a sub ,preparing zen mode,and shielding itself from harm for a turn.A physical wall typically doesn't take special attacks well,and is significantly weakened by it,to the extent that the physical sweeper on the team can now make more progress in dismantling the team.

As an example:
(252 Spe,perhaps Naive/Hasty nature)
@leftovers/ life orb
-Flare Blitz/Fire Punch
-Substitute
-Heatwave/Overheat/Focus blast
-Grass Knot

Regardless of what you do with the remaining 252 evs,the set threatens would be switchins to both choiced and lifeorbed versions of darmanitan,and combined with entry hazards ,threaten ohkos in many instances. A fellow teammate or item can be used to heal HP to 51+%, and restore it to its standard,faster form after the crucial damage to the opponent's team is done.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Running substitute instead of belly drum would mitigate the risk in transforming into zen mode,and would provide a shield to attacks that would OHKO Darmanitan. Belly drum is crazy risky unless the user has bulk and/or sitrus,and as has been said already,zen mode would make no worthwhile use of the maximised attack stat.
You are both correct in saying that running zen mode hinders its sweeping capabilities.But what if this darmanitan took on a more supportive role,and was not one of the dedicated sweepers on a team? 140 base attack + 95 speed with strong STAB and coverage is great,regardless of items and abilities. The fact that SF darmanitan with a lifeorb hits with a more awesome power is undeniable,but perhaps it is overkill in certain situations,and moreover,people prepare for these sets alone.

A zen mode darmanitan could be used to effectively lure in threats to standard darmanitan,and by extension,threats to pokemon like standard darmanitan: fellow physical sweepers.

People expect a SheerForce set,they switch in a sturdy physical wall to stop it.And then darmanitan sets up a sub ,preparing zen mode,and shielding itself from harm for a turn.A physical wall typically doesn't take special attacks well,and is significantly weakened by it,to the extent that the physical sweeper on the team can now make more progress in dismantling the team.

As an example:
(252 Spe,perhaps Naive/Hasty nature)
@leftovers/ life orb
-Flare Blitz/Fire Punch
-Substitute
-Heatwave/Overheat/Focus blast
-Grass Knot

Regardless of what you do with the remaining 252 evs,the set threatens would be switchins to both choiced and lifeorbed versions of darmanitan,and combined with entry hazards ,threaten ohkos in many instances. A fellow teammate or item can be used to heal HP to 51+%, and restore it to its standard,faster form after the crucial damage to the opponent's team is done.

Don't really understand how this supports anything, or actually accomplishes anything that, say, Infernape can't do better. Or really any other mixed attacker.

Furthermore you haven't fixed the problem of Zen Mode's unreliability. You can't switch in on anything and once you do activate Zen Mode you're stuck with one of the slowest Pokemon in the game at <50% HP with a horrible defensive typing that's just begging Tyranitar to come in and Pursuit it.