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Community POTW #148

Discussion in 'POTW Collaboration' started by Serebii, Aug 21, 2016.

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  1. Serebii

    Serebii And, as if by magic, the webmaster appeared... Staff Member Admin

    Time for another Pokémon of the Week and this week wer have another powerful and beloved Pokémon

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Salamence is immensely powerful and is commonly seen this year in the VGC circuit


    Go nuts
  2. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Well-Known Member

    Guess I'll be the one to post the superstandard Smogon set.

    Salamence @ Salamencite
    Impish - Intimidate
    248 HP, 136 Defence, 128 Speed
    -Dragon Dance
    -Refresh / Substitute

    I have to confess that I've never actually played with this set, but I've played against it, and I have a lot of experience with DDD Altaria, a set that plays remarkably similar to this one. The combination of Dragon Dance and Roost with a heavy defensive investment allows him to set multiple boosts up late game. Frustration is a solid, reliable STAB to which nothing is immune, which allows him to easily clean up teams after Flying resists have been removed. The last slot can go to either Substitute or Refresh. Substitute allows him to abuse switches more readily, as well as protecting him from things like Ferrothorn's Leech Seed. Refresh's superior PP and reliability make it the more consistent choice. The EV spread allows him to outspeed the crowded base 90 tier, with the rest being dumped into his Defence.

    This set plays as a late game cleaner, waiting until your opponent's checks have been weakened or removed, and then coming in to mop up the mess. To this end, it needs Lugia, Arceus-Steel/Rock, potential Ice Beam users, and things like Skarmory and Primal Groudon weakened or KO'd. SD Arceus-Ground makes a fantastic partner as it threatens nearly all of these things. He also greatly appreciates hazard control from Defoggers like Giratina, Latias, and Skarmory. While not necessary, Memento from something like Latios can guarantee at least one turn to set up, which towards the end of the match can be devastating.

    I admit fairly limited Ubers experience but this seems to be the most common and effective set. More offensive variants can be used but struggle to set themselves apart from more powerful sweepers like Primal Groudon, ExtremeKiller, DD Rayquaza, etc.

    For OU...

    Salamence @ Life Orb
    Naive - Moxie
    252 Speed, 252 Attack, 4 Sp. Atk
    -Fire Blast
    -Iron Tail / Dragon Dance

    Salamence sadly does not stand out much in OU, where he faces stiff competition for a team slot from fellow dragons Garchomp, Dragonite, and Kyurem-B, all of whom overshadow him in some way. If you do decide to use Salamence, however, you'll need to play on his strengths over other Dragons, namely Moxie and a decent Speed tier, as well as a usable Sp. Atk. This allows him to run a dangerous all-out attacker set that can easily overwhelm weakened stall teams with a snowballing Outrage that gets stronger every time he nets a KO with it. While it doesn't pack as much immediate power as Kyurem-B, if Salamence gets a KO, then your opponent had best hope they've got a Steel or a Fairy left alive to sponge that +1 Outrage. Earthquake covers Steels like Heatran and Metagross, while Fire Blast hits the Steels that Earthquake doesn't, such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Scizor. Iron Tail can be used as a last ditch attempt to score a solid hit on Fairies, but its terrible 75% accuracy shouldn't be relied upon, and it's usually safer just to switch out. Dragon Dance can also be used, but honestly in OU he's just plain outclassed as a Dragon Dancer by Dragonite.

    The downside is Salamence's speed tier is average at best, allowing him to be outsped by a myriad of threats such as Latios, Starmie, Weavile, Mega Lopunny, and... Well, everything above the 101 Speed mark. As a Dragon Dancer, Dragonite is just superior thanks to Multiscale allowing him to set up with ease, and making him much harder to check. Salamence can pull off a decent Dragon Dance set with Moxie, but his average bulk and inability to threaten Fairies outside of an inaccurate Iron Tail will let you down more often than a more reliable Dragon Dancer. Lastly he can run a Scarf set but I find he greatly enjoys the freedom to switch moves in order to break down stall and slower balance teams.​
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016

    REMARCABLE Well-Known Member

    Here it is, one of the most elite of Pokemon with one of the objectively best Mega Evolutions, Salamence.
    Salamence is a Dragon, and unlike his more laid back counterparts Goodra and Dragonite, Salamence takes his role as a psuedo-legendary Dragon seriously

    His offensive presence is as fearsome as he looks, both in Special Attack and Attack backed up by the reliable base 100 speed tier, of all the Pokemon that can use Dragon Dance, Salamence is one of the most threatening.

    You see Salamence has two incredible abilities at his disposal, Moxie for single formats and Intimidate for Doubles and VGC
    Why? Let's paint a picture, a Salamence that has just gotten off a successful Dragon Dance can now sweep and gets stronger as it does so, end of picture.

    Intimidate is one of the best if not THE best ability in Doubles as VGC, it can wound both opposing physical attackers before the first move is made.
    Intimidate cannot be used against Salamence as easily as you might think, unlike Dragonite, Salamence can go physical, special or both.

    This madness didn't stop here, Salamence's power was furthered with evolution beyond evolution, it was given a shiny new ability that Salamence does enjoy quite some.
    Aerilate, this ability changes Normal type moves into Flying type moves and boosts the power by a further 30%, this opened up so many doors for Salamence
    Double-Edge, Hyper Voice, Return.
    Salamence's already high offensive stats were furthered and it was even given an impressive boost to its Defense stat (admittedly this wasn't as good as say even high offensive stats)

    Salamence was a very powerful Mega in VGC15 but it took a slight hit when Pokemon like Primal Kyogre and Xerneas entered the ring, nevertheless it proved itself as a brave Dragon to the likes of Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquaza.

    -Excellent attacker on all sides
    -Very useful abilities
    -Access to powerful moves like Outrage, Dragon Claw, Draco Meteor, Return/Double-Edge/Hyper Voice (with Aerilate boost) Earthquake, Rockslide,Fire Blast and admittedly nice options like Dragon Rush, Hydro Pump and Dragon Pulse but the covenant Dragon Dance is what really makes a Dragon a Dragon.
    -It's typing is very good offensively which Dragon has always been and continues to be, and Flying because no one really can use the types that resist it effectively.
    -One of the best Megas in the game
    -It's a Dragon that becomes a blood moon jet plane.

    -It's typing makes it terrified of Ice, even the weak Cresselia can threaten it with Ice Beam, P-Kyogre can demolish it as a result
    -While it's Defense is incredible after Mega Evolution, that doesn't help it against the aforementioned Ice Beams, Icy Winds, Draco Meteor, Dazzling Gleams which is usually what is used against the Dragon.
    -It's movepool is still limited, all VGC Salamence can only afford to run 1 moveset save for one dropped move for another commonly used one (Draco Meteor for Tailwind I can guarantee this)
  4. Lord Fighting

    Lord Fighting Bank Ball Collector

    The only mega salamemce set you should run: (In Smogon)

    Salamence @Salamencite
    Intimidate - Aerialate
    252/252 Speed + Atk 4 HP
    -Dragon Dance
    -Return/Double Edge

    One dragon dance after it's mega evolved and this thing is a force to fear in the ubers metagame. It outspeeds almost everything in the tier after one dragon dance barring scarf users or a +2 xerneas and it outspeeds the likes of mewtwo, darkrai, shaymin. Aerialite is an amazing ability for this guy and every team should plan a counter for him. It can 1-2 ko the entire tier after one dragon dance.

    The biggest issue with mega salamence is getting it to successfully mega evolve without dying as its base forms speed is problematic in ubers as Mewtwo can ohko it with ice beam, darkrai can dark void it to nullify it and so on. It still loses 25% of its HP from stealth rocks when it switches in meaning it can be worn down with status moves and priority attacks.

    It has boosted defence to help survive arceus extreme speeds or unboosted sucker punches from mega kang. It also gets the right coverage to deal with pretty much the entire tier barring scizor/ferrothorn.
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
  5. ericgall23

    ericgall23 Pokémon Fan

    Salamence has always been a good Pokémon.

    Movesets have been said already, so i dont repeat!!! Consider 1 Fire-type and 1 Dragon-type move, has they are unresisted, like Reshiram's. For the Other two, a Flying type one, like Fly (It was Bagon's dream afterall!), and Dragon Dance. or Earthquake for Heatran, which resists the other 3. Reshiram had a Mold Breaker-like ability, so Salamence has a harder job.


    It's Pre-Evolution, Shelgon, can be used with an Eviolite, has it gains very high DEf, and better Sp.Def. It used differntly than Salamence.

    Ability: Rock Head. Pairs very well with Double-Edge and Take Down, but hey, the better is Double-Edge of course. Forget Overcoat...

    Moveset for Shelgon: (Eviolite paired of course for more DEFenses!)

    - Double-Edge
    - Dragon Dance
    - Dragon Claw
    - Fire Fang/Flamethrower

    Double-Edage takes advantage of Rock Head, that means no Recil, whish is very great.
    Dragon Dance boost ATk and SPD, which is so good.
    Dragon Claw for a physical Dragon-type move. You could try Outrage, but i dont like the confusion at the end....
    Fire Fang takes advantage of dragon Dance and Shelgon's higher ATK, but Flamethorwer can be considered to hit Pokemon, like Steelix or Skarmory, who have less Sp.Def than DEF. It's up to you.
    Afterall, Fire and Dragon moves is a combination that is unresisted, like I learned back in Reshiram's PotW. Add Double-Edge too! ;)

    Pure Dragon type helps it too, as it has so less wekaness than Dragon-Flying. ;)
  6. Missingno. Master

    Missingno. Master Poison-type Trainer

    The Mega Mence Menace
    Jolly nature
    252 Attack/252 Speed/4 HP
    ~Dragon Dance
    ~Dragon Claw/Outrage

    This is pretty self-explanatory, as is Salamence itself. Mega up, Dragon Dance, destroy all the things. Double-Edge works with Mega Salamence's Ability of Aerilate for a great STAB move. Dragon Claw is also good STAB, can be swapped for Outrage if you're feeling ballsy. Earthquake is for the Steel-type the other moves can't touch.

    Item enables Salamence to Mega Evolve. Ability is your call entirely.

    The Moxie-less Mega Mence Menace
    Timid nature
    252 Sp. Atk/252 Speed/4 HP
    ~Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor
    ~Hyper Voice
    ~Hydro Pump
    ~Fire Blast

    A special attacking version of the previous set, minus a setup move. You got your STAB moves. You got Hydro Pump and Fire Blast for raw power and extra coverage. You're pretty much set here. Not much to explain.

    Item we covered. Ability helps with taking physical hits.

    Other options:
    *Aqua Tail, Brick Break, and Shadow Claw are all options on the physical set.
    *Salamence also gets Roost if you think you can afford to forego extra coverage.
    *Iron Tail is a somewhat viable option for those pesky Fairy-types. I was gonna suggest Iron Head here, but... to my utter astonishment, nothing in the Bagon line gets that move. I did not know that.

    *Intimidate: Upon being sent into battle or acquiring this Ability, Salamence causes all adjacent enemies' Attack stats to be lowered by one stage. A solid choice. Even on the physical set if you're not sure you'll get any mileage out of...
    *Moxie: Salamence's Hidden Ability. When Salamence uses an attack that knocks out an opponent, Salamence's Attack goes up one stage. It's worth consideration on the physical set- bring it in, score a KO before Mega Evolving, get an extra Attack buff. It's pretty situational, though, unless you forego Mega Evolving for some strange reason, so Intimidate's pretty much the top pick here.
    *Aerilate: Mega Salamence's Ability. Mega Salamence's Normal-type moves are 30% more powerful and are turned into Flying-type moves instead. Consider that this is something with access to Double-Edge and Hyper Voice, and the stats to reliably use both. And then there's STAB on top of it all. Definitely a step up in terms of Flying STAB, when you consider Salamence's best Flying STAB previously was... Aerial Ace and Air Cutter. I am not kidding.

    Salamence is surprisingly short on moves designed to hit Fairy-types, so a couple of counters to those wouldn't go amiss. Oh, and basically anything that can reliably switch in on Ice moves, because Salamence is gonna be drawing those in like nobody's business.

    Mawile resists both of Salamence's STABs, can come in, Intimidate, Mega Evolve... you set up to avoid Sucker Punch, you risk a Play Rough to the face. You go for the throat with Fire Blast or Earthquake, you risk eating a Sucker Punch. Similarly, other Fairy-types can switch in on Dragon moves with impunity, if not necessarily the Flying moves, and odds are Salamence can't hit them super effectively.

    How can you not love Salamence? That thing is cool!

    Pre-Evolution Corner:

    Let Shelgons Be Shelgons
    Jolly nature
    252 Attack/252 Speed/4 HP
    ~Dragon Dance
    ~Dragon Claw/Outrage
    ~Shadow Claw
    ~Brick Break

    I'll be perfectly honest here- in terms of straight-up usability, Shelgon ain't got nothing on Salamence. But it's still a cool Pokémon that can see some use if you take the time to work with it. Dragon Dance ups that Attack and Speed, and the rest is pretty self-explanatory. Dragon Claw is STAB. As always, Outrage can be substituted. Shadow Claw and Brick Break are for coverage- completely unresisted coverage, at that. And Shelgon's actually got better Defense than Salamence. It may lack Intimidate, but at least the physical bulk doesn't rely on the target not switching out or fainting.

    Item beefs up Shelgon's defenses, allowing for more Bulk Ups. Ability is just plain useful in general.

    Other options:
    *Dragon Rush is always an option, I suppose, albeit a very risky one. It's in between Dragon Claw and Outrage in terms of power, and it lacks the downfalls that come with Outrage, only to come with one of its own- namely, the poor accuracy. It's a powerful move, but... yeah, there's a reason I stuck it in this section.
    *Crunch is an option over Shadow Claw, but Dark and Fighting doesn't have the same level of unresisted coverage as Ghost and Fighting.
    *Don't be tempted to run Double-Edge in tandem with Rock Head. Non-STAB Double-Edge is just as powerful as STAB Dragon Claw, it's not super effective against Dragon, and you miss out on all the benefits of Overcoat. Just... don't do it.

    *Rock Head: Shelgon doesn't take recoil damage from attacks that dish it out. It still takes recoil from Struggle and Life Orb. Considering Shelgon's only recoil move is Double-Edge, and I just spent an entire bullet point of the Other options section telling you why not to go for it... yeah, I wouldn't.
    *Overcoat: Shelgon's Hidden Ability. Shelgon is immune to the damage from Sandstorm and Hail, and is unaffected by any powder or spore moves, and the Effect Spore Ability. All of which are very good things to be immune from, so yeah, if you're going with Shelgon, this is your Ability of choice.

    Sticky Web support wouldn't go amiss, just to be on the safe side. An answer to Fairy-types would also be a smart idea, and the same goes for physical walls.

    Physical walls in general. If you want to add insult to injury, though, the special attacking Salamence set can get it done.

    I actually really like Shelgon. It's got a very cool look to it.

    Prediction for next week:
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
  7. generic villager #5

    generic villager #5 Your ad here!

    Looking at Divine Retribution's OU set for Salamence's base form, I did some calculations and realized that in most situations, if you have Dragon Dance, Fire Fang is better for the set than Fire Blast simply because DD usually turns a 2HKO into a OHKO for most relevant uses, whereas Fire Blast can't be boosted, has lesser accuracy, and often gets 2HKOs anyway in similar situations. Either way, it takes two turns, so maybe it's better to run Fire Fang, weird as it may seem. Thoughts?
  8. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Well-Known Member

    +1 252 Atk Salamence Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 124-148 (37.1 - 44.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    4 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 230-272 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    This alone makes Fire Blast the superior option in my opinion. Furthermore, if you're going to run Fire Fang, then you're again starting to encroach on Dragonite's territory, who can run the same set with Fire Punch for a slightly bigger kick. This is the problem with DD Salamence in OU, it's just plain outclassed by Dragonite in almost every area. Salamence has a bit of Speed that lets him outpace certain Scarfers at +1 that Dragonite doesn't outspeed, and he obviously has Moxie, but Multiscale gives Dragonite the edge in ease of set-up and makes him more resistant to revengekilling.


    It also isn't guaranteed an OHKO on standard Ferrothorn without prior damage, meaning Fire Blast is more efficient at disposing of that too. The one interesting thing is that it does have a chance to OHKO standard bulky SD Mega Scizor that Fire Blast doesn't have, so I suppose that's worth mentioning, but Fire Blast's ability to muscle past what would otherwise be his number one counter is invaluable for a Pokemon who should only be used in OU to take apart stall teams anyways.
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
  9. SaurusHam

    SaurusHam Mawile w/ Fire Blast

    To further lay fire fang to rest.
    Fire blast garners most of the same results as fire fang while avoiding detrimental things like rocky helmet/iron barbs from ferro, lando-t, chomp, and skarmory that could stop your sweep and other annoying things involved with contact moves.
  10. generic villager #5

    generic villager #5 Your ad here!

    All good points. Thanks for the input, I'd advocate to keep Fire Fang off the OO list then. To be thorough, Salamence in OU has fairly little use for the defensive benefits that a straight physical set would gain anyway.
  11. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Well-Known Member

    Also it's come up a few times in this thread, so I should point out that Fire+Dragon isn't unresisted anymore. It was in Gen 5 but the advent of Fairies screwed that up, and Heatran resists Dragon+Fire from non Mold Breaker (or Turboblaze) Pokemon. In addition to that, you now have Diancie, Carbink, and Azumarill. Not really all that relevant since its coverage is still amazing but it's not completely unresisted now.
  12. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    A couple people mentioned Shelgon, but nobody mentioned Bagon? Shocking!

    Shelgon may not be viable... well, anywhere to be honest, but in the Little Cup, Bagon is... uh... not very viable either. In fact it doesn't even rate on the viability lists. The problem is twofold. First and foremost, Dragon types aren't exactly the dominant types in the Little Cup that they are in higher tiers, since most Dragon types tend to be late bloomers, only really becoming potent after fully evolving, and Bagon is no exception. Plus, the advent of fairy types did them no favors, especially since Snubbul and Spritzee are top tier Pokemon in the LC.

    Next, Bagon has a lot of competition from other Dragons. Most notably, Axew is probably its biggest rival, who sports a similar set, (Dragon Dance), but with a few notable exceptions. Namely, Axew has a higher starting speed tier, slightly higher attack, and an arguably better movepool which includes Superpower to obliterate Pawniard and steel types in general, while Iron Tail allows it to 2HKO Snubbull, even unboosted. Bagon does have a small advantage in Sheer Force, but more often than not, Axew outclasses it, and even then, Axew is kind of niche in the LC to begin with.

    Anyway if you did wanna use Bagon, this is what it would look like:

    Bagon @ Life Orb
    Adamant Nature
    236 Atk / 36 Def / 196 Spe
    Sheer Force
    -Dragon Dance
    -Dragon Claw
    -Rock Slide / Zen Headbutt
    -Fire Fang / Zen Headbutt

    Bagon's Dragon Dance set is pretty much its one and only niche, albeit an outclassed one. Dragon Claw is the obvious STAB, while Bagon does have a handful of coverage options available to it. Rock Slide and Fire Fang are the most commonly seen, and for good reason; Rock Slide mutilates Archen and Fletchinder while also allowing it to 2HKO Vullaby, while Fire Fang 2HKOs Pawniard, Foongus, and Cottonee while also 1HKOing Ferroseed. However, Zen Headbutt does deserve a mention as well, given it hits the omnipresent fighting types such as Mienfoo and Timburr for SE damage, allowing it to 1HKO and 2HKO them respectively.

    Adamant Nature and 236 Attack EVs allows Bagon to maximize its attack at 18, while 196 Speed EVs allows it to reach 14 speed, which is as good as it's gonna get. However, after a Dragon Dance, it reaches 21 speed, enough to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame. The leftover 36 EVs can be put in either defense or special defense, although defense is preferable since its physical bulk is a little better in that it can take a weaker physical hit. Sheer Force is the ability of choice, as it powers up every coverage move Bagon has, and in turn allows it to abuse recoil-free Life Orb on every attack in this set except for Dragon Claw. And of course, the aforementioned Life Orb helps push Bagon's damage a little further, as well.
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  13. JZG

    JZG Member

    Salamence is a member of the "Big 6" and a very strong Pokemon in this year's VGC format.
    - Intimidate support before Mega Evolving. Very useful in a format full of powerful physical attackers
    - Fantastic Attack, Special Attack, and Speed after mega evolving. Base 145 Attack allows Mega Salamence to dish out heavy damage with Double-Edge even with little investment, allowing more investment in its base 120 Special Attack to deal more damage with Hyper Voice. Base 120 Speed outspeeds most Pokemon in the format, incliding Mega Rayquaza, Mega Kangaskhan, the Primals, and unboosted Xerneas.
    - Excellent physical bulk. Base 130 Defense combined with Intimidate means Salamence can take physical hits well.
    - Aerilate is a fantastic ability, especially in a format where very few common Pokemon resist Flying.
    - Special Defense. Base 90 leaves a lot to be desired in a format full of powerful special attackers, however it's not like a few extra points in Special Defense would allow it to survive a Primal Kyogre Ice Beam or a +2 Xerneas Dazzling Gleam. This is often why Salamence runs a Naive nature, however the downside is it is then 2HKO'ed by opposing Salamence Hyper Voice.

    Typical set:
    Item: Salamencite
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive/Hasty nature
    - Double-Edge
    - Hyper Voice
    - Protect
    - Draco Meteor/Tailwind/Fire Blast

    EVs are pretty standard, and the first three moves will appear on pretty much every set. The last move depends on the needs of the team. Draco Meteor OHKOs Rayquaza, other Salamence, and other Dragons not named Dialga. It also deals heavy damage to Groudon and can be useful in a one-on-one at the end of a match if Hyper Voice isn't going to do enough damage. It can miss though so beware of that. Tailwind provides Speed control, and Fire Blast burns through Mawile and Bronzong.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2016
  14. neoschu42

    neoschu42 Member


    How come no one has mentioned Thrash yet
    Unlike outrage thrash has no immunities with aerialate it can potentially sweep three a whole team of three pokemon
  15. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Well-Known Member

    Because it's only slightly stronger than Double Edge and locks the user in, making Salamence much easier to revengekill with a Flying resist. In addition, in Doubles you cannot choose Thrash's target, making it unreliable and often a liability in VGC. It might have some limited merit on offensive Ubers sets but quite honestly Frustration or Double Edge will serve you better in almost all matches.

    Also literally anything can potentially "sweep a team of 3 Pokemon", this basically means nothing, especially on a Pokemon like Salamence which is known for sweeping unprepared teams.
  16. Aduro

    Aduro Mt.BtlMaster

    There's not much point putting all that investment in the speed of a pokemon with 50 base speed. Its still outsped by base 100 and over speed pokemon after it dragon dances. Even in PU there are plenty of mons like Cryogonal, which can OHKO with freeze dry after rocks damage unless the shelgon has at least some sp.def or HP investment, or ninteales which will burn you before you can hit it. If you want to run shelgon you should at least play to its strengths, rely on that base 100+eviolite defence and make it a physical tank,it still won't be as tanky as altaria and will still get taken out easily by special attackers, but it can at least sponge a few hits.

    @Neoschu42 If you really want an alternative to return (and lets face it, are playing on showdown or genning because nobody is transferring a salamence from gen 3 for an arguably viable physical normal move) you might try body slam. Its not that much less powerful than return and gets that decent 30% paralysis chance for things like azumarills. Its almost as good as scald when it come to ruining opponents sweepers.
  17. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Well-Known Member

    Azumarill is already much slower than Mega Salamence (and indeed most Pokemon in general, it only sports a 50 base Speed), and with Stealth Rock up you OHKO almost all the time with Double Edge anyways. Frustration is also a guaranteed OHKO at +1 on offensive sets. Not to mention Azumarill isn't a relevant threat in Ubers where Primal Groudon runs rampant on at least 9 out of 10 teams (and even discounting P-Don, Azumarill is too slow and relatively frail to do much in Ubers). I'm not sure how relevant Azumarill is in VGC, but going straight for the KO with Double Edge seems like a better choice than trying to paralyze it with Body Slam.

    That being said Body Slam does have some merit on the defensive Dragon Dance set being as it doesn't use Double Edge anyways, and the drop in power between Frustration and Body Slam is negligible on a Pokemon that can easily afford to boost multiple times in most matches. It's also nice to slap an incoming Lugia or Arceus-Rock with paralysis when they think they're getting a safe switch.
  18. MetalSonic

    MetalSonic Orderan' Defendan'

    Facade can be fun, no? Around 182 BP after a status, I think. It can really ravage teams outright even without a DD and goes without Double-Edge recoil. Though I suppose the status kind of makes up for that. I think it OHKO's the standard Klefki in Ubers from full after +1.

    Salamence @ Salamencite
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 136 HP / 196 Atk / 176 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Double-Edge
    - Facade
    - Dragon Dance
    - Roost

    +1 196+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Facade (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Klefki: 356-419 (112.3 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    This is while status'd of course.

    It's missing two points of power.
    Very fun to be rid of Klefki right off the bat in Ubers though so your other sweepers can sweep!
    Your obligatory Xerneas can then proceed to Aromatherapy you later.
    Dunno how effective Facade is in VGC though, dont really play it, but ive seen a lot of success with Facade Salamence in Ubers personally. Even if you don't need Facade you got Double-Edge to!

    Maybe not the most optimal move most of the time, but hey, how often do you get to abuse such raw power without as much of a downside as high BP moves come with?

    What do you guys think? A waste or just an option? Refresh is probably just safer.
  19. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    I mean it's at least OO-worthy, but if you don't get status'ed, it's kind of a wasted moveslot. Status-fueled Facade may be an absolute nuke, but a no-status Facade is pretty weak, and Salamence does have plenty of other options that could take up that slot. It's not outright bad or anything but it's a little too situational for my liking.
  20. Lord Fighting

    Lord Fighting Bank Ball Collector

    Does frustration do more damage than double edge on mega salamence?
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