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Community POTW #151

Discussion in 'POTW Collaboration' started by Serebii, Sep 11, 2016.

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  1. Serebii

    Serebii And, as if by magic, the webmaster appeared... Staff Member Admin

  2. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Well-Known Member

    Ah Starmie, definitely one of my favorite Pokemon, and arguably the most reliable spinner in the game. Before XY, Starmie was known as one of only two Pokemon that has remained in OU since the very beginning of Gen 1 (the other and current sole record holder being Gengar). Sadly, the Defog and Knock Off buffs severely hurt Starmie, as it is no longer the most reliable way to remove hazards, and Dark type coverage has become much more common than it used to be. It did drop to UU for a while in XY/ORAS. That being said, Starmie still has a huge niche over Defog users in that Rapid Spin only removes hazards on your side of the field, allowing you to keep some pressure on things like Talonflame and Mega Charizard Y while still clearing hazards for your own team.

    Starmie also boasts a fantastic Speed tier, respectable Special Attack, a gargantuan movepool full of coverage and support options, and a choice of two pretty solid abilities.

    Starmie @ Life Orb
    Timid - Natural Cure
    252 Speed, 252 Sp. Atk, 4 Defence
    -Hydro Pump
    -Ice Beam
    -Rapid Spin

    This has been Starmie's flagship set for generations. It's pretty simple, but yet effective. Hydro Pump serves as a strong STAB attack for when Starmie needs to put out a bit of damage. Coming off of Starmie's usable 100 base Sp. Atk, it certainly leaves dents in things that don't resist it. BoltBeam offers the best coverage it can get, scoring solid hits on Dragons, Waters, Grasses, etc. Other options are available such as its Psychic STAB (Psyshock or Psychic), Recover, Grass Knot, Thunder Wave, and Signal Beam, but on an offensive spinning set like this BoltBeam is generally the way to go. Rapid Spin allows Starmie to remove Stealth Rock, Spikes, Sticky Web, and Toxic Spikes from its side of the field, and being the fastest user of the move with a respectable offensive presence to boot, Starmie is generally the go-to user of Rapid Spin for most team archetypes.

    I also find Starmie to be a star player (sue me) on Gravity teams, taking a more offensive approach than Rapid Spin or utility sets. Gravity in general is a gimmick, but it has just enough utility to be a workable gimmick. Gravity Starmie runs this set.

    Starmie @ Life Orb
    Timid - Natural Cure
    252 Speed, 252 Sp. Atk, 4 Defence
    -Hydro Pump

    As one of the few users of both Thunder and Blizzard, and having access to Gravity and STAB Hydro Pump to boot, Starmie is a natural choice for Gravity teams. It plays remarkably similar to the offensive spinner set, although it trades Thunderbolt and Ice Beam for the much more powerful Thunder and Blizzard, given perfect accuracy by Gravity. It also swaps the ability to remove hazards for the ability to set its own Gravity, which must be considered when choosing teammates for Gravity Starmie. Natural Cure should always be used over Analytic on this set, as he will usually be taking advantage of switches to set Gravity instead of attacking.​
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
  3. fishyfool

    fishyfool And a nice chianti

    What's the other one? Illuminate has no competitive value at all, and Analytic's good for slower, bulkier pokemon...which Starmie most ceratinly is not. 60/85/85 is the same as Mega Medicham, and given that Starmie's weak to Dark unlike MegaCham, and what prior defensive bulk Starmie had no longer exists.

    However, the excellent 115 speed and massive movepool remain, though 100 special attack isn't too impressive these days, but Starmie can run a dual screens set with Scald.
  4. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Well-Known Member

    Analytic is actually a fantastic ability on Starmie as it activates if you attack as the opponent switches, allowing you to punish switchins with a 30% boosted Hydro Pump or coverage move. This is very valuable on a Pokemon that has a tendency to force a lot of switches, like Starmie. In general I prefer Natural Cure as it allows me to use Starmie as a status absorber but Analytic certainly has merit.
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
  5. ampfire101

    ampfire101 Well-Known Member

    Countering Starmie

    I thinks it's awesome that Starmie has managed to remain a strong part of OU throughout the years and while I do like Water-types a lot (like Misty the Starmie using gym-leader), here I'm talking about some reliable ways to take it out. Being a Psychic-type, it is vulnerable to being pursuit trapped or Sucker Punched, which, though it can be fixed a little with Reflect Type, uses a moveslot Starmie could be using for extra offensive pressure and will likely lose its STAB boost. Utility variants are most likely going to carry Scald, Rapid Spin, and MAYBE Psyshock if they do not carry Reflect Type for damaging moves. A Pokemon I would suggest for this type of Starmie would be Mega Sableye, which is a good Spinblocker and is immune to Psyshock. Mega Sableye can also KO with Shadow Ball. Other good options include bulky Water-types like Slowking, Manaphy, Jellicent, Azumarill, and Mega Gyarados. Grass types can really hinder Starmie too, like Ferrothorn, Celebi, and Assault Vest Tangrowth. Be wary of utility Starmie though, as it does have a passable amount of health, with reliable recovery in Recover and Leftovers and the ability to change its type. While it can't really touch you, it can passively hinder you with hazard removals and Scald burns. It even has Natural Cure to heal itself of status. As for the offensive variant, switching in on this is a DANGEROUS decision, with Analytic boosting the power of anything that dares to switch in. While they may carry Recover, the moveslot could also carry Rapid Spin. Offensive variants can chose from their decent movepool moves like Hydro Pump, Thunderbolt, Psychic, Psyshock, Ice Beam, or Hidden Power Fire. They also get Flash Cannon, Signal Beam, Dazzling Gleam, and Grass Knot, but they typically aren't as usable. Variants not carrying Psyshock can be dealt with with Chansey, variants not carrying HP Fire can be defeated with bulky Jirachi, and Mew and Calm Mind Clefable don't really mind anything a mainstream offensive Starmie throws at it, but though it's rarely seen, Starmie has access to Signal Beam and Flash Cannon as stated above, respectively. Also, typically things that outspeed offensive Starmie can usually check it without much of a problem due to Starmie's low bulk and typical lack of a Focus Sash, like Mega Manectric, Mega Sceptile, Weavile (which can also Pursuit Trap), Mega Lopunny, Scarfed Landorus-T, Scarfed Kyurem-B, Tornadus-T, Hawlucha, Mega Pidgeot, Mega Sharpedo (after a speed boost), Scarfed Hydreigon, and Gale Wings Talonflame, though if for whatever reason the offensive Starmie can live it, they are in critical danger of a Life Orb, Analytic, and (potentially) Super-effective and/or STAB attack coming their way. Starmie also HATES Pursuit-trappers like Weavile, Bisharp, Scizor, and Tyrannitar, as well as Sucker Punch from Nidoking (a definitely weird option but not out of the picture) and Bisharp. A lot of things nowadays can carry Knock Off, which doesn't help Starmie much either. Just focus on the low bulk while being wary of the drawbacks of not taking it out in one hit or not switching very carefully.

    REMARCABLE Well-Known Member

    Like mentioned before, Starmie can force switches, so anything that tries to switch in to offensive Starmie will get a 30% boosted + Life Orb attack straight at it
    252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 48-57 (26.5 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    This is the most bulky Ferrothorn for special attackers, so normal Ferrothorn sets would take at least a clean 33% from a predicted Ice Beam

    Analytic is surprisingly good for Starmie, for offensive ones at least
  7. Missingno. Master

    Missingno. Master Poison-type Trainer

    A Starmie Is Born
    Starmie@Life Orb
    Timid nature
    Natural Cure/Analytic
    252 Sp. Atk/252 Speed/4 HP
    ~Hydro Pump
    ~Power Gem/Thunderbolt
    ~Dazzling Gleam/Ice Beam

    Starmie is a classic. Hydro Pump and Psychic are your primary attacking moves, though Psyshock is a very welcome alternative to the latter. Power Gem and Dazzling Gleam are for coverage, though it must be said that Ice Beam is a better option against many Dragon-types, and Thunderbolt pairs well with it. Basically your call there. Mix and match to suit your needs.

    Item powers up Starmie. Ability is up to you.

    Other options:
    *Besides Hydro Pump, Starmie gets a number of other powerful yet inaccurate moves such as Blizzard and Thunder, and can also learn Gravity, so there's that.
    *Scald is always an option if you don't mind losing a little power in favor of that burn chance. Could be useful for an unexpected defensive Starmie, along with things like Cosmic Power, Substitute, and Recover. Certainly not the best use of Starmie out there, but I've faced a few defensive Starmie before. They always come as a surprise, and can be tricky to deal with.
    *Starmie also gets Rapid Spin if your team is in need of something like that. Fits easily into any Starmie set, though it comes at the cost of some coverage.

    *Illuminate: Ahahaha... ahahahahahaha... Pfffft- BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!! XD
    *Natural Cure: Heh heh... whoo... OK, yeah, but seriously, Natural Cure- when Starmie switches out, it gets healed of all status conditions. Always useful, beats the crap out of Analytic and... pffft... Illuminate.
    *Analytic: Starmie's Hidden Ability. Starmie's moves are 30% more powerful on turns during which the opponent has already done something. Why they felt the need to give this to one of the fastest Pokémon out there is beyond me. Odds are it'll only activate when an opponent switches. That said, though, I suppose the boosted power to hit switch-ins harder isn't that bad an option, especially if your opponent mispredicts and switches in something that doesn't resist your chosen move. Alright, maybe this is worth more consideration than I originally thought, but I think one thing we can all agree on is that Illuminate is completely useless.

    If you're using Starmie for Rapid Spin, it's good to use on teams that set up any entry hazards- Rapid Spin, unlike Defog, doesn't clear out your own hazards as well, after all. And if you're not running Psyshock, something that can deal with special walls wouldn't go amiss.

    Special walls in general are a safe switch-in, though Chansey and Blissey must always beware of Psyshock. Florges can take hits from Starmie rather well and hit back with super effective Grass moves, whereas the only super effective option Starmie has against Florges is Flash Cannon, which... I somehow doubt will see use on it. Greninja's a safe bet, resisting both of Starmie's STABs, outspeeding, and OHKOing with Dark Pulse, but it's gotta be wary of switching in on a Thunderbolt or Dazzling Gleam.

    I've always thought Starmie is pretty cool.

    Prediction for next week:
  8. Karxrida

    Karxrida Lost in the Waves

    Power Gem and Dazzling Gleam hit nothing of relevance. People here also need to stop slapping DG on things that get it, especially since Starmie can already beat Mega Sableye with Hydro Pump.

    Florges is bad in OU and should not be your Starmie answer. Pretty sure it dies with Rocks up if it gets hit by an Analytic-boosted Hydro or Psyshock.

    I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but HP Fire is a legit move to use if you need Ferrothorn gone.
  9. ampfire101

    ampfire101 Well-Known Member

    Not sure how useful this could be but ever consider using a Toxic Orb Starmie? With its fast speed and Trick, it can cripple things like Chansey severely. Should Starmie be forced to get poisoned, it can cure itself with Natural Cure. This seems rather niche to me (mie lol) but it does have its uses and i figured bringing it up since well we're talking about Starmie. Any thoughts? Perhaps this is better with choice scarf or something but yanno I figured bringing it up
  10. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Well-Known Member

    Just to bury this dead horse.

    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 173-204 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Power Gem vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 364-432 (110.6 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 374-445 (113.6 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    The one interesting thing I noticed is that Power Gem OHKOs Mega Charizard Y, something Hydro Pump and Thunderbolt fail to do in the sun. I guess it has some tiny niche in that regard but that alone generally isn't worth giving up a moveslot for.
  11. Aduro

    Aduro Mt.BtlMaster

    Its not really a great pokemon for trick, Starmie needs to have specific items quite badly. It needs leftovers to have decent bulk and needs life orb to do decent damage. With trick you'd generally rely heavily on luck to outlast to get a decent item and all you're getting back is a chance to poison an opponent.

    Litte Cup

    Like Starmie, Staryu is a unique and powerful hazard remover. Unlike anorith and stunky, Staryu hits that stellar base 19 speed with a timid nature, allowing it to outspeed gastly, anorith and ponyta. Staryu is unique as a rapid spinner as it can threaten rock types better than anorith or even drilbur, paralyse spinblockers like gastly and frillish with thunder wave and just generally be a problem to predict. In particular wallbreakers that appreciate not being slowed down by webs or having defeatist set off by rocks really benefit from staryu. Basically, imagine if starmie didn't have to worry about weavile or getting OHKOd by sucker punch, that's what you've got in staryu.

    Staryu @ Life Orb
    Ability: Analytic
    Level: 5
    EVs: 196 SpA / 76 SpD / 236 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam /HP Fire
    - Substitute

    Hydro pump gets more guaranteed OHKOs on threats such as bulky anorith compared to scald so I'd recommend it on life orb and other offensive sets. Ice beam helps deal with grass types but sometimes staryu needs HP Fire to hit ferroseed harder, and HP fire is also able to take out fully offensive magnemites even if they've only barely had their sturdy broken. 236 speed will max out staryu's speed and 196 special attack will give it the best chance to break bulky pokemon. The last 76 can either go in defence or sp.def depending on what your team has trouble with, but I'd recommend sp.def because there are more special scarfed pokemon. Recover is usually recommended on offensive sets, but I've had better results with substutute as lots of ghosts like to try and paralyse or burn staryu to stop it recovering, and it allows you to deal with situations where your opponent may or may not switch more safely. On ther other hand recover isn't ideal as staryu only has base 30 hp, so offensive variants can't take hits from anything really dangerous like abra and take life orb damage so recover doesn't help much.

    Other options
    Psychic for fighting types that are relatively frail psychic can still do decent damage even without stab, but Staryu's 4 moveslot syndrome usually means it drops psychic for a better coverage move
    Dazzling Gleam hits axew and timburr, but like psychic it usually just doesn't hit hard enough to earn a moveslot
    Thunder wave checks incoming sweepers, but not the ground types setting up rocks against you or the electics types switching in to stop you like chinchou or scarf magnemite
    thunderbolt deals with flying types and other bulky waters, but ice beam does the former and most LC bulky waters can't do much back to starmie
    Recover as I said, is probably better on the bulky variants than life orb sweepers, as staryu is generally the kind of pokemon that kills or is killed quickly when its an offensive spinner

    Checks and Counters
    Chinchou eats up almost anything staryu can do pretty easily and take it out with a volt switch. Staryu can also be played around with by other pokemon with volt switch such as scarf magnemite . If its not running thunderbolt Staryu can also be walled by frillish or slowpoke. Meanwhile ferroseed can deal with many staryus pretty well, but if a staryu switches into your ferroseed, that probably means its about to hit hp fire and try to do about 80% to your best wall.

    Might try out some defensive staryu sets later as it gets so many fantastic moves that are great for defence and it can use them so quickly. But defensive staryu is almost like a totally different pokemon.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2016
  12. generic villager #5

    generic villager #5 Your ad here!

    I wouldn't call it high-tier material exactly. Switcheroo Lopunny demonstrates why this tactic is gimmicky, and Lopunny does it relatively well. However, if you really want to try it for fun, I'd use something like a Flame Orb to a physical attacker to force a switch and get an Analytic boost. Ideally, you'd want a physical attacker with a Life Orb, that way you basically end up with a standard offensive Starmie after the Trick. Still, the major problem with this tactic is that even if it works, it only works once unless you're looking at a heavily item-dependent team that Trick can properly derail. Given Starmie's other uses, I don't think this will even make the OO list.
  13. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Well-Known Member

    First of all Trick+Toxic/Flame Orb is a complete gimmick that will rarely work in any serious match, but if you do for some reason use it, why would you use Analytic over Natural Cure? Now you've got a Poisoned or Burnt Starmie potentially with a useless item for the rest of the match, all for the sake of forcing a single switch?

    Honestly, TrickSpecs or TrickScarf has some merit because Starmie can actually use the Specs or Scarf itself if it has to. Toxic/Flame Orbs only cripple you in matchups where you can't feasibly Trick them away.
  14. generic villager #5

    generic villager #5 Your ad here!

    My thought was to come in free after a KO and immediately get rid of the item before it kicks in, but I neglected to mention that part so that's on me. Natural Cure's not a bad route, I just thought it might be smart to trade for a Life Orb and continue the battle with a pseudo-offensive Starmie. There are plenty of LO physical attackers out there, after all.

    (Also, I don't want to be derailing this discussion. My belated apologies for dragging on about something that's probably not worth mentioning in the actual POTW.)
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2016
  15. ampfire101

    ampfire101 Well-Known Member

    As a VGC player, I noticed Starmie has a niche on the top three legendary pairs teams with a perfectly accurate Thunder with Primordial Sea on RayOgre and Double Primal teams as well as Icy Wind, Thunder Wave, AND Trick Room for Speed control (some teams like using fast Trick Room users). Plus with Trick Room, Starmie undersped quite a lot so it got the Analytic boost. And as if evasiveness boost from Smeargle's Moody weren't frustrating, non-Gravity and Trick Room carrying sets could use Minimize. And it has Grass Knot for opposing Primals. And Scald because Scald. And Ice Beam for the Flying-types. And Skill Swap to reset weather and stuff. And it had a rather gimmicky Dream Eater when paired with Dark Void Smeargle. And Psych Up when paired with Xerneas. Not saying any of this is Yes it has the 4-slot syndrome, but it is a rather versatile Pokémon to different teams. AND WHO COULD FORGET ITS GODLY (not really) ABILITY ILLUMINATE MY GOSH!!! All joking aside, it did some work with its other two abilities. The ones I faced were typically carrying LO or Focus Sash. It does warrant some merit, right?
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2016
  16. EKZ1505

    EKZ1505 VGC Master

    It had some usefulness in 2015, mostly with annoying Minimize sets that weren't at all good though. For 2016 it's pretty bad. OHKOing a Primal Groudon if the sun isn't up is about all it can do offensively. I guess it could 1v1 a Primal Kyogre too if it doesn't have Thunder and you do, but that's about it. Lots of cool support moves you listed, but there's lots of other Pokemon that pull them off better. You might be able to surprise some opposing teams with a Thunder Wave or even Psych Up, but that loses most of its effectiveness in Bo3.
  17. ampfire101

    ampfire101 Well-Known Member

    I feel like using Skill Swap to change weather and give either of the Primals an Analytic boost for under speeding its opponents would be really useful along with Gravity. Idk about the damage calcs but I think PDon and POgre can OHKO a lot with that Analytic boost and assuming Starmie has reset the weather in its favor already with a little prior damage. The only other Pokémon that has Analytic, Skill Swap, and Gravity is Beheeyem, which could have its uses but back on topic, Starmie can be a bit gimmicky bit it's useful to give Analytic to something that will likely underspeed a lot
  18. EKZ1505

    EKZ1505 VGC Master

    In theory it's a good gimmick, but the problem is you have to hope you're slower for Analytic to activate, and being slower is rarely a good thing in this format when sooooo much damage is done. I do see certain situations that it may help, like Groudon hitting a boosted Xerneas with an attack it could normally survive, or Mega Salamence for more damage with a rock move, but you really have to hope you can live their attacks first.

    Skill Swap and Gravity are useful in more situations, but again there's much better options in Pokemon to use.
  19. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Well-Known Member

    People keep mentioning Psyshock to muscle past Chansey, but this is silly. You're completely underestimating just how bulky Chansey is, even on the physical side.

    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 187-222 (26.5 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    With an Analytic boost you 3HKO, meaning if it's packing Wish or Softboiled, you're not killing it. Slapping Psyshock on a Pokemon does not allow you to beat Chansey, unless it's significantly weakened first. In this case Psyshock is used beat CM Keldeo, as well as scoring solid hits on Mega Venusuar, Gengar, and less titanic special walls like Sylveon.

    Blissey is nearly 100% outclassed by Chansey and should never be used in OU. Even on Sand teams Chansey's noticeably better ability to take hits means it takes less damage in the long run. Blissey is only viable in Ubers due to the ability to hold a Shed Shell and escape from Mega Gengar, as well as threatening a few threats with 4x effective Ice Beams or Flamethrowers.
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2016
  20. You have to look at the bigger picture. Psyshock with Analytic and Stealth Rock down will do 47 - 53.5% to 252/252+ Chansey and 50.3 - 57.5% to 4/252+ variants. Now Chansey is under a lot of pressure. If it intended to come in and set Stealth Rock, use Heal Bell, or poison/paralyze something, it's going to be taking a huge risk. Starmie can now 2HKO with Psyshock if it doesn't heal up immediately, and the Starmie user gets a free switch to whatever other offensive threat he/she wants if it does heal. Not only that, but a second Psyshock added onto the earlier calculations makes it 73.5 - 85% vs 252/252+ sets and 79.4 - 92% vs 4/252+ sets. Just a little prior damage and Chansey can't even switch consistently into Starmie. It's the basic concept behind Charizard Y + Tyranitar/Bisharp cores. Charizard Y struggles mightily to get past Chansey on its own, but everyone knows that Chansey is still far from a guaranteed answer to Charizard Y because all it takes is one Pursuit (and maybe a little Stealth Rock damage to boot) for it to no longer be a counter.

    On a side note, Blissey can run an ADV-esque CM set on certain bulky teams that need a better answer to TG + RD Manaphy, but that set is pretty niche and rarely used anyway.
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