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Community POTW #153

Discussion in 'POTW Collaboration' started by Serebii, Sep 25, 2016.

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  1. Serebii

    Serebii And, as if by magic, the webmaster appeared... Staff Member Admin

  2. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Well-Known Member

    Lots of legendaries this month, eh?

    Keldeo sports a formidable Water/Fighting typing, with decent Speed and great Sp. Atk, and respectable 91/90/90 bulk. However, the downside is his movepool is extremely shallow. Outside of his STABs, he has almost no notable coverage options, forcing him to rely on weak moves like Icy Wind and Hidden Power. He also has a completely useless ability that boosts his Attack when he gets hit by Dark-typed moves. Great for Terrakion and Cobalion, not so great for Keldeo.

    In order to take advantage of Keldeo's great stats and typing while avoiding the pitfall of his terrible movepool, I prefer to run a SubCM set. This set lets him set up on and beat a number of top metagame threats like Volcanion, Bounce-less Mega Gyarados, and Tyranitar.

    Keldeo @ Leftovers
    Timid - Justified
    252 Speed, 252 Sp. Atk, 4 Defence
    -Secret Sword
    -Calm Mind

    Substitute and Calm Mind let him abuse switches after coming in on things like Volcanion, Tyranitar, and Heatran, and set up Calm Mind to boost his already impressive Sp. Atk to new heights. The Sp. Def boosts also help for setting up on opposing walls like Psyshock-less Slowbro and specially defensive Heatran. Scald provides a great, spammable STAB move that notably hits Talonflame switchins like a truck, and comes with a 30% Burn chance which greatly helps with wearing down opposing bulky Waters and things like Mega Venusaur. Secret Sword gives him a secondary STAB option (and there really isn't much else in his movepool he can make use of), but notably allows him to muscle past Chansey and beat other Calm Mind users like Suicune 1v1. There are a few other niche options (Hidden Power Electric/Flying, Icy Wind, Taunt, and Toxic) but none of them really fit in on a SubCM set, so his STABs are really his best bet.​
  3. 13_luckynumber

    13_luckynumber Well-Known Member

    Hypothetical questions: everybody says Keldeo's movepool is barren but what else does iit need? (Please dont go into hackmon mode and say things like Hurricane or Origin Pulse for example)? I personally think its movepool is well designed. Not once have I wish for extra moves like in the case of Hmm, Dragonite and good Flying stab?
  4. jolteonjak

    jolteonjak *swoons for Noland*

    Ice Beam for starters. It's one of the few Water types that cannot learn it. Surskit of all things can learn Ice Beam (Blizzard too) but not Keldeo.
  5. Sceptile Leaf Blade

    Sceptile Leaf Blade Well-Known Member

    Ice Beam is the most prominent one, I think Keldeo is the only water type not to get Ice Beam apart from Magikarp, Rotom-Wash, and Volcanion. It also lacks some other useful stuff that other pokémon often get, like Grass Knot and Shadow Ball.

    Keldeo gets Swords Dance but its attack stat sucks, as far as Swords Dance or Bulk Up sweeping is concerned there are many things that outclass it. If you want to go that route better go with a pokémon that has a naturally good attack stat to build that Swords Dance on, like Feraligatr or Kabutops.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
  6. ericgall23

    ericgall23 Pokémon Fan

    I don't know why Keldeo is event-exclusive? and why Terrakion, colbaltion and virizion aren't? There stats are similar...

    Anyway, it's sad that Keldeo's ATK is so low...

    Since it doesnt get Ice Beam, which is sad, it does get Icy Wind as a move tutor move, so it has an ICE-type move Special!!! Plus, it lowers the foes speed, which is really great. Offensive-defensive moves are my favorites moves!

    So the moveset I suggest:

    - Surf
    - Secret Sword
    - Icy Wind
    - Calm Mind

    First two moves are STAB and special ones.
    Icy Wind, I said it earlier. It allows it to do super effective against Grass, Dragon and flying-types.
    Calm Mind raises its Sp.ATK and Sp.Def. It is really good.

    Well, to be honest, i dont think I will ever own a Keldeo, or any event legandaries Pokemon, at all, so that's it!
  7. ClefairyRox

    ClefairyRox Nintendo Fan

    Holy crap, I love Keldeo. I am so sad I lost mine with my old Alpha Sapphire cartridge, but that is soon to be rectified!

    As the "apprentice" of the muskedeer trio, Keldeo shares several attributes with them: access to Sacred Sword, a secondary Fighting-type, the Justified ability, and the same numbers in its base stat spread. Each muskedeer has a stat they specialize in and a stat they are weak in. In Keldeo's case, it sports an impressive Base 129 Sp. Attack, solid 91/90/90 defenses, great Base 108 Speed, and a pretty much unusable Base 72 Attack. This unfortunately means that Keldeo's ability ends up going to waste.

    Even as a special attacker, Keldeo is hampered by its movepool. It has virtually no usable coverage moves; not even the Water-type classic Ice Beam. Therefore it must resort to Icy Wind and/or Hidden Power for specific threats.

    It's a testament to Keldeo's power that it is one of the biggest threats in standard play in spite of these faults, outshining all three of its big brothers. Its checks must always be wary of potential burns from its Scald, and even special walls can't stop it due to its signature Secret Sword. Secret Sword also ensures Keldeo does not have to rely on the infamous Focus Blast as a STAB move, unlike other Fighting-type special attackers.

    Keldeo's core moves are Scald and Secret Sword. Alongside these, it can run Hydro Pump for extra power, Icy Wind to neuter some Dragons like the Lati twins, or a Hidden Power to take care of a specific threat. And that's the extent of Keldeo's usable special movepool. Use a Life Orb or Choice Specs to turn Keldeo into a fearsome wallbreaker, or a Scarf to make it a great revenge killer.

    Alternatively, Keldeo can run a somewhat bulkier Calm Mind + Substitute set or even a RestTalk set. Be sure it has Leftovers in these cases, but it should still run Timid and 252 Sp. Attack/252 Speed to make the most of its great Speed tier.

    Countering Keldeo:
    It's very difficult to counter Keldeo because a lot of Pokémon can be ruined by Scald burns or a particular coverage move; once Keldeo's moveset is apparent it becomes easier. The text for countering Keldeo on Smogon is ridiculously long, so that's quite a testament to this.

    It should be noted that Jellicent is immune to both of Keldeo's STABs, although it is not a good Pokémon in OU. Latios and Latias can tank about anything aside from Specs Icy Wind and OHKO back with Psyshock. Bulky Psychic types tend to do well; Slowking is a hard counter thanks to its typing and special bulk. Bulky Grass, Fairy, and Water types are good checks; Clefable won't take Specs Hydro Pump well unless it has a lot of Sp. Defense investment but it doesn't fear burns thanks to Magic Guard. Celebi does well on any set lacking HP Bug. Flying types can switch in on Secret Sword and can usually outspeed and KO back. Assault Vest Tornadus-T is quite good at this, and any damage it takes can be mitigated by Regenerator.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
  8. generic villager #5

    generic villager #5 Your ad here!

    Keldeo may have a relatively shallow movepool, but it does have some excellent stats and it STAB combo isn't half bad. Thus, it's a good candidate for Choice items.

    The Water Horse
    Keldeo @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
    Ability: Justified
    EVs/Nature: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    - Hydro Pump
    - Scald
    - Secret Sword
    - Icy Wind / HP Electric

    Good news about Keldeo is that its Water STABs are very spammable, so generally you'll want to go with one of those. Hydro Pump is for weakened teams or pokes you can one- or two-hit KO anyway, but Scald is better earlier on when you want to threaten potential switches or just generally be annoying. Secret Sword is other STAB, and very nice to have for a select few threats such as Ferrothorn or Chansey, although Scarf sets will probably only 2HKO whereas Specs sets have a small chance to OHKO the latter. The last move is coverage, and you get to choose what you want to be walled by. Mega Venusaur won't mind you much either way you go, but its best coverage options are A.) Icy Wind for speed control and not having to sacrifice IVs, nice for hitting dragons and the occasional Celebi, or B.) HP Electric, nice for hitting bulky water types and perhaps most notably the best way past Slowbro. HP Bug is also an option, performing a similar role to HP electric. The item for this set is up to you and should be chosen based on your team's needs; Choice Specs makes Keldeo a terrifying wallbreaker, scaring even some of the bulkiest threats in OU, while Choice Scarf adds revenge killing to your résumé, since Keldeo is one of the fastest Scarf users and outspeeds everything that's not also Scarf'd.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
  9. pyrromanis

    pyrromanis Member

    Keldeo is one tricky pony! It prety much has 2 sets with a few variations. LO, Specs and Scarf runs almost the same moves (Hydro Pump, Scald, Secret Sword, HP) and SubCm has already be mentioned.
    For counters, the most commons in OU are Starmie, Slowbro, Mega-Venusaur, Amoonguss and Tangrowth that either resist both STAB or take a little due to be too bulky! From lower tiers Jellicent and Tentacruel completely walls Keldeo, while special defensive fairies like Florges and Sylveon has nothing to fear from it.
    For teamates, Keldeo apreciates Lati twins to be gone, since they resist Keldeo's STABs and threaten it with Psyshock, so a Pursuit trapper like Tyranitar or Bisharp works well.
  10. MetalSonic

    MetalSonic Orderan' Defendan'


    Keldeo-Resolute @ Life Orb/Leftover/Rocky Helmet
    Ability: Justified
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Secret Sword
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    While a good chunk of Keldeo normally have a Specs on them and lean towards pure offense, this one's a lil diff.
    So what's Keldeo really good at aside from spamming its STABs?? Checking Bisharp, Weavile, and Scizor and assorted Darks! While Keldeo isn't terrifically bulky, it is just bulky enough and by virtue of typing that it's allowed to be used in such a manner to check these normally hard-to-switch into threats and scare them out with its STABS. Rest and Sleep Talk are the real head turner as they keep Keldeo alive and well in order to continually keep these monsters at bay and may also just be convenient in the long run. Playing the fates may be a lil off-putting to some, but Scald is very spammable as you all know! It's prolly best for you to find the correct turns to burn off sleep though, mostly. You'd think it'd be able to afford a bit of bulk for this role, but it really can't. It needs its top speed to be able to threaten out Garchomp and speed tie with opposing Keldeo especially. Life Orb can be used to make more of a scene of your power and Rocky Helmet or Leftovers can be used for chip and extra recovery respectively. A lot of these mons run Knock Off so that's unfortunate for any of your item choices, really. Still, it's a neat little Keldeo set in case you're finding your particular team pained by offensive Darks and Scizor. ​


    ooh first time doin this, but Keldeos a personal faves so had to try
    pls no bully
  11. Karxrida

    Karxrida Lost in the Waves

    It should be noted that Keldeo can run Focus Blast on its Specs set to overpower some of its checks/counters such as Gastrodon, hitting Suicune really hard if it hasn't set up, and being able to 2HKO Slowbro (I think after Rocks?) despite being resisted. It probably hits other stuff too, but I don't recall what exactly.

    Tangrowth is kind of an iffy answer. AV gets 2HKO'd by Specs Secret Sword while physically defensive dies to Specs Icy Wind or Focus Blast. It might also get 2HKO'd by Specs Sword after Rocks, but I can't calc that right now.

    Also Florges sucks so stop bringing it up, while I think Sylveon gets by Specs Hydro Pump after Rocks.
  12. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 213-252 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 160-190 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Most Sylveon don't run 252/252+ either, so while Sylveon can't counter Specs sets reliably, it can at least check them, given it 1HKOs roughly half the time with even an uninvested Pixilate Hyper Voice.

    0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 300-354 (92.8 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
  13. generic villager #5

    generic villager #5 Your ad here!

    For kicks and giggles, I'd like to throw in Gourgeist as a check to Keldeo, despite how rare it is in higher-tier gameplay. If Keldeo isn't running Icy Wind, it can only at best 3HKO Gourgeist's OU defensive set, while Gourgeist could easily heal back that damage.
  14. ampfire101

    ampfire101 Well-Known Member

    Countering Keldeo

    Keldeo has a rather small move pool, which can make it somewhat predictable, but it does have a high Special Attack stat. Furthermore, it sits at a very good speed bench, as base Timid 108 speed outspeeds Megas like Gardevoir, Garchomp (even its regular form),Medicham, and both Mega Charizard. However, base 108 isn't the fastest there is. A lot of Pokémon in OU that, with a positive speed nature, can outspeed Keldeo typically have moves that can take it out. A good example is Talonflame, with its priority Brave Bird that can OHKO Keldeo. While on the subject of Flying Types, Mega Pidgeot, Tornadus, and Hawlucha do nicely in KOing Keldeo with STAB Flyign attacks. The Lati Twins, Mega Gallade, Mega Metagross, and Alakazam (regular or Mega) also outspeed and KO with Psychic STAB moves. Mega Diancie safely OHKOs Keldeo almost every time with Moonblast, but must be wary of Scald. Serperior, Mega Sceptile, and Starmie can reliably check Keldeo with STAB moves. When talking about checks instead of outright KOers, Keldeo finds even less comfort, having to face down a plethora of bulky Pokemon such as Slowking, regular and Mega Slowbro, Rotom-W, Mew, Azumarill (though it must beware Scald burns), Amoonguss, Clefable (even has Unaware to deal with Sub Calm Mind sets), and Mega Venusaur that can take several hits and retaliate with STAB moves. There are also several Pokémon that have enough bulk to take at least one STAB attack and deal heavy damage back, such as Mega Charizard Y (with the sun up), Mega Gardevoir, Tangrowth and the like. Also, Paralysis and other status conditions are BRUTAL, so Thundurus, Zapdos, Gyarados, and Klefki do exceptionally well in getting Thunder Wave off. The biggest polarizing factors of Keldeo are what item it's running and the type of HP it has. Choice Scarf variants can do brutal damage to many of the checks that normally outspeed it, except those that are still faster than Keldeo or can take one of its attacks. There's also the risk of getting burned by Scald, which NO physical attacking check to Keldeo likes. Hidden Power Electric and Bug are the most commonly seen, but Fire is another choice for Scarf sets to better handle Serperior. Also, Icy Wind speed drops start to rack up over time and hinder effectiveness against Keldeo, so be wary. All in all, Keldeo is a good Pokémon in OU, but it does have its fair share of enemies in the tier.
  15. OnlyDestroyer59

    OnlyDestroyer59 New Member

    If you are desperate you can spam double team while if playing doubles, your teammate can rage powder etc, then spam swords dance, then your physical moves are useful.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2016
  16. Karxrida

    Karxrida Lost in the Waves

    Keldeo is only legal in Smogon formats (and the free mode of Battle Spot, maybe?), and Double Team is not allowed there.

    It does have Quick Guard at least, so you can probably run that in Doubles.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2016
  17. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Well-Known Member

    Double Team should never be mentioned in a POTW because it's a strategy (if that word can even be applied here...) that can be used on just about any Pokemon to the same effect.
  18. Mestorn

    Mestorn Wandering Battler

    Keldeo is a shining example of the 5th Generation. While it may have been introduced as a legendary fighting type, it quickly and brutally carved out a niche as one of the most special oriented Fighting types around. Keldeo's current woes are in a large part of how unkind the 6th Generation has been to fighting types. The new Fairy type introduces a whole plethora of pokémon that cause Keldeo no end of trouble resisting its Fighting STAB and often possessing a high SDEF to soak up its disgusting Hydro Pumps. The rise of Fly spam in the form of new threats like Mega Pinsir and Talonflame alongside old threats like Togekiss has made the modern game inhospitable for Fighting types. Finally, and more specific to Keldeo is how hard it is hit by the loss of perma-Rain. A rain boosted Hydro Pump was/is nothing to laugh at coming from Keldeo, giving it a bit more Oomph to muscle past some of the sponges that don't resist Water. The power/speed creep hasn't helped either.

    Keldeo has lost a lot of ground in the changing of the generations, but don't underestimate it. Keldeo is shockingly fast for what is considered a Wall Breaker and can easily turn into a clean up sweeper if not careful.

    Also, am I the only one who finds it stupid that Keldeo's appearance changes depending on whether or not it has a specific move in its set?
  19. Karxrida

    Karxrida Lost in the Waves

    >Implying Togekiss is a relevant threat

    Took a look at the Gen V VR thread and Fighting-types are about as common as they used to be back then. Birdspam is annoying but that doesn't really stop stuff like Keldeo, Mega Medicham, and Mega Lopunny from being everywhere.

    Keldeo can muscle past Fairies easily (see KillerDraco's post for the Sylveon calc, which probably is the upper limit of a Specially Defensive Fairy you'll see in OU) while the one it has trouble with (Azumarill) is boned by a Scald burn.
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