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Companion Pokémon: Downfall?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by KingMinun, Jul 18, 2018.

  1. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humans are tools

    Both iris and serena had less pokemon but less pokemon ut all of them had there own personality and were well developed, both misty and brock's pokemon either had no personality or didn't got any development so to give this conclusion that her pokemon were powehouse is full BS. Psyduck and politoed were only gag monster with no development, whereas togetic did more in its 2 parter in AG than in whole OS and then was released. Besides except for gyarados all of her pokemon are pretty average. Espeon, mantine, delcatty were not strong pokemon but pretty weak corsola couldn't do anything to that shedinja in AG cameo.

    Having less pokemon with better development and personality is better than having more pokemon with no develpment.
  2. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    Also remember that the instances that the companions had full teams was always in the larger series with four or five seasons, where they had a potentially larger time to develop them all. Since nearly all series now are only three seasons long it makes sense they have to compress.

    Iris, Serena, SM Ash and Kiawe are decent examples of compressed teams since in spite of fewer Pokemon, all of them are memorable and get some development with their trainer in a unique way. While it's true one or two more Pokemon could have helped their development more, you have to question how necessary to the dynamic they were and whether they would have fit screentime for them and the current lot within the smaller timeframe. There is a time when less is more.

    Mallow and Lana aren't hindered JUST because they only have one Pokemon, but because in both instances their Pokemon are the blandest of the main cast and rarely attribute much in terms of characterisation and attributes. The trick with Lillie having one Pokemon was that Lillie was a rookie, her getting even ONE Pokemon was a breakthrough and we got a palpable amount of bonding and training onscreen, while with Lana and Mallow we skipped a lot of that and just assumed it all happened before Ash came along. Snowy was also far more integral to Lillie's character development and agendas, while Lana and Mallow don't really use their Pokemon to progress much in their own. Lana getting a Z Ring wasn't relevant to her character like it was Ash and Kiawe, nor did evolving Tsareena boost her attachment to Mallow's restaurant business.

    I admit SM's problem is also that none of the Pokemon besides Pikachu and Togedemaru really gain long term chemistries with Pokemon from other teams, so if a trainer only has one Pokemon, they are likely reduced to a satellite character which limits how much they can develop (Turtonator was also kinda unfocused until Marowak came along and gave him a dynamic for example). Still previous series had similar development follies (eg. evolved or complicated to animate Pokemon being demoted from interaction scenes and thus losing nearly all their old chemistries and personalities, something the SM powerhouses avoid).

    I think this was also what kept Ash's team the most vibrant in the OS for example, since they were the only ones that were allowed to immerse with the rest of the universe. Togepi and Psyduck spent more time interacting with Ash's Pokemon than the rest of Misty's team for example (eg. Pikachu and Bulbasaur playing Togepi's big brother).
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  3. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    To generalize all of their pokemon as emotionless beings with no character or development would be huge understatement. Corsola, Politoad, Psyduck all showed visible personality quirks. Togepi as well. While in Brock case that could be applied to Pineco(later Fortress), Vulpix while he had it and to lesser extent Onix.

    Speaking of pokemon power, Staryu and Corsola proved their strength in numerous occasions, just like POliwhirl(later ČOlitoad) was possibly her mlost developed pokemon in Johto saga.

    Let see: relationship between Psyduck and Misty actually got deepened over time in Misty starting to love Psyduck for who he was changing initial thought on it. This could be noticed in refusing to trade it with others or how she risked her life later in main anime trying to protect it(this is drastic change from how she pereceived Psyduck in early Kanto). One of more notable examples happened in Coastline gym when TR tried to kidnap group pokemon.

    Psyduck also over time developed better sense of understanding its trainer revealing how much Misty means to him when he tried in late Johto to battle Jessie, James and Meowth to free Misty. This development continued past Johto and as we get to see from recent Misty return, Psyduck also got better in controlling its powers and headache induced power ups.

    Poliwhirl went through two stages of evolution in series and battled rather frequently(and yes i include TR encounters as legitimate battles too). It suffered from lack of confidence and low self esteem issues with Misty helping him to find its inner strength and selfworth. One of better examples happened in episode "Hook, Line and Stinker!" when Poliwhirl thanks to support of its trainer knowing sge has trust in him managed to defeat its evolved form Poliwrath who was not joke. Belonging to champion of competition who won that title multiple times in a row.

    So no, neither of those two were "gag" with no development.
    Togepi ill give you got more significant growth in AG but it its still growth) and when analyzing characters and their pokemon all sagas including moments past their run as main characters should be included. And not just OS in Misty case.

    Also if you consider all of Misty pokemon weak you are allowed to have such opinion. But at the end of the day its opinion which may differ from someone else, certainly not a fact.

    Way i see it defeating Gyarados from runner up of Whirl Cup, Mantine who belonged to future gym leader who defeated Ash Totodile with ease or pretty powerful Delcatty are impressive feats serving as testament to Corsola respectable power not being weak pokemon by any means. Being among top Misty battlers.

    And on side note that Shedinja used Wonder guard being immune to most of attacks, so trying to classify Corsola inability to damage it as testament to that pokemon being "weak" is bad argument. Because by that logic Ash Pikachu, May Torchic or Brock Mudkip are "weak" too because they couldn't do anything to Shedinja either.

    Staryu don't need introduction either. strength if its attacks was often enough to knock down opposing pokemon in single blow(such as Martina Tentacruel), and fact that Staryu was on pair with Molly mirage pokemon Mantine(for who canon stated how they are multiple times stronger than normal real counterparts) breaking its whirlpool bubble beam combo and being equalized in strength says ALOT about this pokemon resistence and flexibility. While for some like Starmie we cannot say they're either strong or weak due to lack of available info and on screen usage.

    So i have to disagree with you on this.

    Depends on what kind of dream/goal character has and if he/she can compensate for lack of pokemon in their team through other ways in which they could be active rather than being stuck in background. So theres no definite answer in here. Because sometimes having more pokemon even if not all of them would receive good development in longer run is more beneficial for some protagonists.

    Still having just one pokemon at their disposal is unnecessary restriction or laziness from story board team . Because it takes away from appeal and freshness new members/pokemon may deliver to characters making viewers feel like their journey is going somewhere opening ground to be more invested into them. There's no reason why Mallow, LIllie etc couldn't get at least one more pokemon eventually but with way things are going right now. That seems rather questionable.

    Sometimes less is more holds truth and ill agree to extent how Lillie to extent or Kiawe are examples of better handled characters despite scarce number of pokemon they have. But there is more to pokemon than just exaggerated expression and displaying various quirks. There is also factor of pokemon adding stability and structure to someone career path, their battles and various missions they were in making up for lack of character development. Showcasing them in interesting and positive light in other ways increasing their coolness and appeal factor due to their nature or features they are capable of having in general .

    And excluding aforementioned characters examples of Lana, Mallow or Sophocles don't fit criteria well of less is more. Definitely not in their case so far.
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  4. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    I do agree in terms of character agency, having one Pokemon is definitely a downgrade, especially since new Pokemon usually offer new challenges and attempts at making the trainer more active. But the thing is you can still do that with a small team that has a couple captures over loads and loads of them.

    Again Kiawe has only caught one Pokemon, but that Pokemon has added shrewd development and substance to Kiawe and his team (eg. inspiring him to change up his battle style, giving Turtonator a foil to help stand out, having a more aggressive Pokemon for Kiawe to be challenged in taming, more comic relief time and a smaller Pokemon whenever animating Turtonator into frame isn't productive), but I guess the trick there is that, even before Marowak came along, the writers actually have an idea how to expand on Kiawe and make him key to the show, and are willing to develop on him and take him out of his comfort zone, something they NEVER do with the likes of Mallow and Lana, even with the one Pokemon they have right now.

    I do agree that Lillie and Kiawe are hindered a little by not having at least one more Pokemon, but I guess the trick there is that they are willing to develop those characters and give them ongoing progression to make us feel we're missing something. Sophocles for example works okay having two Pokemon because he is largely comic relief with more subtle episodic moments of limelight and importance, and those two are at least vibrant enough and connected enough to his character to make a funny duo that compliment that (eg. Togedemaru arguing with Sophocles or Charjabug being put into funny machines or finding odd ways to help with the situation).

    Lana could have benefitted from Dewpider, but I guess that's more from potential, the preview for it's episode suggested Popplio was going to resent it and that could have made an intriguing 'jealousy arc' where Lana had to mediate her two baby like Pokemon. In reality that scene was just a very brief out of context moment, and it doesn't really feel like they want to go into Popplio's personality or give Lana many personal challenges. Mallow could have also had some Pokemon to compliment her restaurant business, but they barely look into that in the first place, Tsareena seldom contributes to it at all and Mallow's episodes tend to keep sidetracking around it for generic things like Team Rocket or a dancing competition. They're clearly becoming characters who, with or without Pokemon, are sadly being treated like dead weight by the writers, much in the same way post-Kanto Brock often was despite having a full team of Pokemon (and even then AG and DP got the point to give him some good comic relief Pokemon).
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
    FlygontheRavager likes this.
  5. AznKei

    AznKei Team girls in Trials Of Mana FTW! XD

    I dunno about you guys but I always have a thing with a character with 3 Pokemons, as I'm fond to see a 4-member group. I thought having 6 Pokemon is too much and some of them would be left out while having 1 Pokemon is too few which its relationship with its trainer would get old quickly. Of course, it also depends how well the producers/writers handled the characters and how complex their goals are.
  6. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    Pretty much me as well, at least for trainers they do anything significant with. Usually 3 Pokemon is about the right amount they can handle in terms of foils and maintaining unique niches and importance (though even then we get some third wheels, eg. Clemont's Luxray or Serena's Eevee getting sidelined after she evolved and was no longer the team 'baby').

    I do think Kiawe should get a third member to keep his arc of branching out his battle style, or at the very least develop on Charizard more (it would also fit the recurring amount of 3/4 member Pokemon teams in SM like Ash and Gladion to keep him a legitimate rival), while Lillie at the very least should get development from capturing her secondary and taking that extra step as a trainer like even Sophocles got to do.
    FlygontheRavager likes this.
  7. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humans are tools

    Psyduck's was a gag pokemon who had no character development throughout the OS seies, just because it had some connections with misty doesn't mean it had ggot character development, there wasn't even a single episode which was even focussed on there relationship, the real development would be if psyduck would have gotten over its fear of water and learned how to swim but the writers were busy in making it a gag mon over a powerhouse, this just makes it a gag pokemon and misty a wasted potential. Politoed also was a late evolution with no development but happy go lucky pokemon. Both of them had most personality but were gag monster. Hook line and sinker was basic rehash of pikachu vs raichu in which an evolved pokemon underestimates a its pre evolved form but end up getting beaten and the match was also very crappy, though OS battles were average.

    Corsola also lost to underwhelming opponents like sakura's espeon in that specials, all it defeated were pretty average opponents. Brock's mudkip and may's torchic were weak baatlers and ash's pikachu is inconsistent powerwise, besides it was still doing far better than corsola, it is not weak but it doesn't have any major fetas, same with staryu. Marina wasn't really that accomplished trainer.

    Whether you disagree with me or not it doesn't change the fact that all of misty's pokemon except for those two gag mons had no real personality and none had major character developed. All of the major pokegirls after her had pokemon with far more character development and personality. May and dawn had full 6 pokemon in her team but all of them had there own traits and were unique. Even serena and iris had less pokemon but were treated way better. It's no secret misty was the least developed pokegirl (except lana and mallow) in the show whether you as a blind misty fanboy like it or not and she overstayed in the show after orange islands.
  8. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    The problem wasn't as much that Psyduck and Togepi were comic relief but more they remained VERY one note about it. Psyduck was just one dimensionally dumb and up until SM it was only ever useful in the same repetitive and basic way; someone was dumb enough to give it a headache and it immediately became invincible with Psychic attacks. Togepi was a baby but unlike even Poipole that at least emoted and bonded with it's team mates, Togepi just done cutesy stuff and was a hindrance. It's one use was using Metronome every rare episode (which was always conveniently OP despite Misty failing to train it and Psyduck). Two gags that had sporadic use in a rather cheap way that Misty didn't really have any control over and only became useful for their very last episode (thus far for Psyduck at least). Sure Misty at least bonded with them, but she could have done with a Pokemon of more substantial personality.

    I can take comic relief so long as there's a full likeable character in there that still compliments their trainer. Again Sophocles has two comic relief Pokemon but while they have running gags, they have more proper personalities and are useful in ways that compliment Sophocles in terms of his hobbies and role as a trainer. Same for Ash's Rowlet that is usually a gag character but does get bonding moments with Ash and his team mates and can be used as a competent battler or search party when necessary.
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  9. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humans are tools

    Totally agreed, not just rowlet before that oshowatt, piplup, corphish and to some extent totodile were all gag pokemo but all had fresh personality and were some of the best developed pokemon of there respective generations. Heck even togekiss was there for only 15-20 episodes but showed lot more character than any of misty's pokemon. I think pokemon's personality and development depend upon there human characters importance to the role. Even brock's and clemont's pokemon suffered due to this. Since both ash and dawn to whom all these pokemon belong were important to plot than misty ever was, so her pokemon also suffered due to this. Chespin and now popplio also falls in the same category as osyduck and togepy as bland and one dimensional pokemon.
    SH65 likes this.
  10. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    Chespin I think falls in the mid territory, since while they overused some gags like it eating and fighting with Pancham, it at least had limelight episodes or moments it was moderately useful from which it obtained something of an actual personality. It also interacted with characters other than Pancham and even with the latter wasn't just bickering or doing a running gag ALL THE TIME (compare to say, Tsareena whose single interaction is whacking Rowlet and pretty much nothing else substantial). It was a character and not just a mechanical gag.

    The bigger problem was that Chespin was with a trainer it didn't compliment much in any way, since Clemont was an Electric specialist and a techno geek, while Chespin was a Grass type with no connection to his gym role or gadgetry. It's one utility there was being a more bombastic character to make Clemont and Bunnelby stand out as a straight man.

    Compare to say Marowak and Togedemaru, who follow a similar role for their trainers, but feel more relevant to what they do due to correct typing and finding more ways for them to be part of their personal agendas.
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  11. Moonlight Starlight

    Moonlight Starlight Well-Known Member

    I think Chespin would been great being Cilan's pokemon than Clemont. Cilan does have a grass type pokemon .
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  12. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    And maybe Mallow, if largely because the 'scolding mother' persona is about one thing the writers commit to with her. Maybe they should have made Bounsweet more mischievous.
  13. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    In regards to Psyduck lot of criticism isn't imo valid. His main role was to serve as comic relief, no one really expected that he will receive some huge development. Writers never intended for him to go through some notable growth, learn new techniques and evolve during Misty tenure on show with main reason behind existence being to provide humor, tension and add fuel on fire when irritating its trainer giving extra spice to dynamics. And boy does he did that job well.

    Psyduck antics and mix of confused, absent minded nature. His care revealed for its trainer, curious nature liking to approach others occupying its attention which could be seen in several episodes where he wandered of, panic abut water made him one of examples of pokemon with rich personality. So I don't agree he was one dimensional either.

    Psyduck more concrete instances of development did not started to happen until late Johto followed by post Misty's run as main character. But that was fine and understandable because role he had before that he did so well and added lot of entertainment to OS as whole in tandem with Misty that he did not need a lot more beside that to stand out and end up be memorable sand liked by many.

    I don't think your aware of fact how character development can come in different shapes and form. Misty was example of character who develops over long period of time gradually. Development was slow and some things were underutilized but that does not change fact that both she and her pokemon changed, grew, improved battle abilities, deepen on relationship with others and faced hurdles and issues having to overcome.

    And in Psyduck case trainer changing its mind starting to care about pokemon she wasn't happy with in start and recognized is value is definitely development. Just as Psyduck for once instead of being confused not being aware of situation realizing what Misty did for him trying to protect her was growth and change in pokemon persona.
    Nonetheless ignoring Misty recent SM return where Psyduck showed improvement in using water attacks and being more in control of its psychic powers being more reliable was also development.
    Sure Psyduck didn't started to receive notable growth until Master Quest and onwards, but that doesn't change that he indeed developed to degree witd results being there.

    Not to mention ignoring Poliwhirl development and episodes displaying that wont help strengthen your argument. Because sole act of Poliwhirl getting over its low self esteem issues through help of Misty or act of deciding to evolve in Totodile episode trying to do its best for her reflecting strong trust and bond between trainer and pokemon were real examples of character development.
    I could list many other episodes supporting this fact.

    Just because you didn't like that episode or that OS battles were "bad" to you does not change what happened being example of actual character growth.

    So yes there was more to Psyduck and Poliwhirl than just being "gag pokemon with no development".

    Ignoring how gym leaders job is to not go all in vs rookie trainers adjusting their strategies and lowering potential to give them chance top have fair battle in winning badge. Because outside of gym that same Corsola defeat Sakura Espeon.

    Trinity from Whirl Cup was not average she was in finals ending as runner up, her Gyarados was real monster which dominated competition but Corsola managed to beat it. Dorian from Coastline gym was also good trainer defeating Ash but Misty managed to get better result vs him in underwater match. Trainer with Delcatty we do not know how strong it was but sole battle showed Corsola in impressive light.

    Starcu feat in third movie alone vs mirage super powered pokemon is already enough to put it on pair with other Ash companions more prominent battlers. And again in Marina case we cannot reliably measure her power level, but any pokemon which can defeat full stage evolved pokemon with just one swift deserves some credit. Because Staryu is definitely very agile, resistant and has power.

    Lasting that long vs dr Yung hacked Aggron was also nothing to scoof at. Most Staryu battles were admittedly vs TR but some instances where it faced far superior trainers revealed its true power and capabilities.

    Corsola, Gyarados, Luvdisc, Azurill, Togepi all had, have, showed personality traits. Heck even Horsea arguably did during its short run on show. Not to mention Misty in comparison to most girls caught a lot more pokemon, and had more traditional trainer battles than characters like May(not counting contest battles), Serena, SM girls or Iris actually had.

    Also Misty developed actually more as character in personality dense, in having to confront fears, childhood traumas or self doubts than Iris, most SM girls, even Serena did in restrospective. And changed alongside May the most as person.

    Sure in goal development Misty was handled worse than most, but in actual character development in growing and changing in persona sense Misty is among most developed pokemon girls. Ill agree she wasn't not properly handled in some important fields leaving a lot more to develop and many things left unanswered. Things did started to pick up in Master Quest but decision to replace her just when story regarding her water pokemon master career started to build up from what Whirl islands started, or when she finally recognized her value and self worth opposed to older siblings and others denied her from being developed to full potential.

    So she hardly overstayed her welcome given how much more could be done adding lot of entertainment value to anime and group chemistry. And this applies to Johto too, more specifically Master Quest where she started to be treated a lot better.

    So well have to agree to disagree on this making further discussion pointless if middle ground cannot be reached.
  14. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humans are tools

    Psyduck and politoed were gag pokemon with one dimensional character traits, they hardly received any development throughout the entire OS. Compare it to other gag pokemon like totodile, oshowatt and piplup who were also annoying but from time to time received good development, that just shows how the poorly misty's pokemon were handled. That johto episode was the only episode polywhirl got oesn't mean it got great character development before turning into gag pokemon by evolving. Psyduck and politoad are basic gag pokemon whose gag meant more than character development otherwise misty would have taught he atleast hw to swim.

    Misty is a rookie gym leader as well, she was a new gym leader at that time. Where was it proven that her gyarados was a real monster and it dominated the tournament, trinity had different powerfull pokemon which were atleast equally impressive. Dorian defeated ash's to date most weakest pokemon ever in totodile, hardly any impressive feat especially when totodile had lost countless times in OS.

    Movies aren't considered canon but still in that movie staryu still lost easily, besides in main anime it's major feat is only beating TR which is not impressive.

    Misty was a battler so she had more trainer battles than some of the girls, but you are delusional to think that she had more battles than dawn, iris and may and contest battles do count since they are part of there goals. Iris battled in various club tournaments in BW and even got herself a rival unlike misty. Misty's most battles were against TR.

    Calling misty as one of the most developed character is like calling a third rate football team like croatia a worthy world cup finalist when all they had were luck and shouldn't be anywhere near finals, glad they were punked 6-0 by spain.

    Other girls were far more developed than background character misty ever was dawn was the co star of the show along with ash having huge focus on her, iris had to work with her disobedient excadrill and dragonite and that took few eepisodes to finish and didn't finish in one episode like with misty and gyarados making it more believable, not to mention working with ice types despite having a fear of it, coming on terms with drayden in opelucid gym. Serena just like may had to find her own dream and an entire arc only for that, then had to race with her mother to show her resolve, coming on terms with rhyhorn racing, then became strong by cutting her hair. Lillie had a fear of pokemon but still babysit snowy and worked hard to become comfortable with her and then after aether arc became comfortable with touching all the pokemon not to mention one of the only two people who nebby was comfortable with. All of these characters have far exceeded misty in character development department, the only pokegirl who is far worse than misty is in mallow and lana. So to call her one of the most developed character of the series just shows yur blind misty delusion.

    She should have been written off as a main character after OI and become a ecurring character in johto because the only major thing she did in johto was participating in the whirl cup which could have happened in her cameo just like dawn and junior cuo in BW, her other fcous episodes were mostly all filers, except for that she was a background character throughout the whole series even in twin TR arc ritchie and lance overshodowed her completely. Even in master quest she didn't really did much except for whirl cup and some pointless fillers. She did a lot more in thse 4-5 chronicle episodes than she did as a main character in main anime that just shows how she was handled there. So yeah she overstayed her stay.

    Laslty even takeshi shudo mentioned in his blog that she was written off as main character over brock and TR because she was the least relevant character at the end of johto.

    You can disagree all you want but it won't change the facts about your favourite character that she was poorly handled.
    Moonlight Starlight likes this.
  15. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    I didn't mind Misty getting episodic development, it was especially effective in Kanto for giving her new depths. I guess it's just that a lot of the time it didn't really feel connected to her Pokemon or like they had a lot of involvement with it. Yeah she cared about Psyduck and Togepi, but they weren't really proactive themselves until their very final moments of limelight, they felt a bit more like props that did the odd gag especially since they were incapable of using their abilities effectively besides dumb luck. They didn't even interact with themselves or other members of Misty's team, a lot of their chemistry was one way with Ash's team (being exasperated by Psyduck's vacuousness or watching over Togepi while it acted like a generic baby). Until late Johto a lot of her more serious battles didn't really involve Pokemon she bonded with, Staryu was her ace in early episodes, and that barely had a personality. Hell the Princess festival episode she almost exclusively used Ash's Pokemon and Brock's Vulpix, for seemingly no other reason than they were more endearing.

    I guess what maybe helped Misty a little is that she felt more fallible than the girls usually are (besides odd exceptions like Dawn). As in she was allowed to fail miserably and be the butt monkey a lot of times, which I suppose made her development, in spite of being a VERY late bloomer, more worthwhile. For later girls they often tend to cushion or even skip over the parts where they have to be too much of a 'loser', which downplays their development and ability to improve in the first place. Misty struggled and lost battles all the time for example, to the point of sometimes being a laughing stock, but the modern girls they begrudge even taking single hits their entire run, let alone losing a battle (ironically even her brief return in SM is the only time a female companion got thrashed that series). In that sense Misty felt more sympathetic and like her progression was real.
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  16. solrocknroll

    solrocknroll S-Class Connoisseur Fan

    Nothing about Politoed was "one dimensional gag Pokemon" unless you magically forgot the period of time in which he was a Poliwag and Poliwhirl.
  17. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    I guess it's the fact that he didn't appear until a while into Orange Islands and even then it was quite a while before he did much more than fight Team Rocket (which was slowly turning into the most generic and effortless accomplishment possible by that point). I actually don't remember him appearing much at all in early Johto, let alone getting much character limelight.

    I think that's what people are getting at. Making a character suddenly OP enough they can worf a supposedly powerful Pokemon with one shot isn't really a developed display of battle competence it's just 'strong as they need to be' on display. It's like if Sophocles could suddenly beat Ash's Pikachu with one Zing Zap from Togedemaru and then saying 'Oh, well she could have done it the whole time.' We never saw the character training or earning that power, it was just a cheap way of making a character look strong with zero development or agency.

    This is why I fail to really take the show's endless curb stomp battles as developed display of battle prowess. That's more the 'straw loser' effect where they pit the protagonist against a character lame enough that they look impressive by comparison, rather than trying to make their own individual characteristics and abilities look remarkable in their own right. No matter how many times the twerps beat up some schmuck like Team Rocket, it's not going to look impressive unless they required more involvement than calling one or two basic attacks to defeat. The trainer has to do something meaningful with their Pokemon throughout the series that requires proper character involvement.
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  18. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis Bonnie stan

    It was pretty rude of you to say this straight to @pokemon fan 132's face when he's Croatian.
  19. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humans are tools

    I guess that was a little harsh but still that dont count that team couldn't beat pretty weak teams like denmark, russia and weakest england in last 40-45 years in normal time, I dont think they even worthy finalist more like lucky finalist i dont mind anyone blaming germany's exit we were pretty pathetic due to that we are getting laughed at for last 4-5 months, lost to netherlands big way (our biggest rivals).
  20. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    At this point your just repeating yourself not adding anything new or substantial which would help strengthen and prove your point. As i mentioned in previous post Psyduck showed several personality traits, being abundant in personality sense and to this day remains one of best pokemon who were able to add to show atmosphere through its entertainment value.

    Same applies to Politoad who was loyal, cheerful, cared a lot for his trainer deciding to evolve not wanting to disappoint her. Who suffered from lack of confidence in being able to defeat stronger pokemon and had comedy side to itself once it reached final stage evolved form. Hardly one dimensional by any stretch of imagination.

    Also on Psyduck behalf it was established from start how Misty Psyduck is anything but ordinary coming of as extremely clueless and dense, giving out impression that hes completely useless until headache comes on scene unleashing its true strength. Strength which happened to be lot more powerful than we saw from ordinary Psyduck with one shot knock outs being believable if we presume how headache increase his telekinetic powers by large margin .

    Making him delicate case in itself that every trainer would probably have trouble in pulling out his strength on surface, with Misty several times trying to teach him how to battle or swim in chronicles but with no success. Due to its handicap being challenge to any trainer to get him become more reliable and competent. So Misty not being able to teach Psyduck how to swim means nothing not being reflection of her trainer skills. On other hand fact that she was able to mega evolve Gyarados and even in extremely challenging case like Psyduck got him to be more competent as we saw with use of water gun and psychic moves dominating over Lana and Mallow is indication of her being highly skillful trainer.

    If your gonna ignore all instances where Misty pokemon and her character received character development repeatedly saying she and her pokemon had no development or growth its your right to do so. But it doesn't change fact how its wrong thing to claim not being true at all.

    Let see: rewatch Whirl Cup, it was stated by Brock and commentator themselves how Trinity Gyaradpos was unstoppable force, and in general this specie was always portrayed as extremely powerful already as wild pokemon being challenging to defeat them, let alone ones belonging to experienced trainers like Trinity was. Yet Misty Corsola was able to defeat it.
    Speaking of Dorian claim of Totodile being Ash weakest pokemon is your claim, not a fact. Not changing fact that Ash lost while Misty was tied with Dorian in battle score demonstrating better battling tactics when your supposed to battle in water environment, especially underwater. Dorian was competent trainer contrary to your belief.

    That's debatable, because quite a few movies have direct references to events happening in main anime following such storyline. We can see that in third movie as well when Liza and Ash Charizard who was left training at Charific valley was shown in movie flying to give help to Ash.

    Staryu was not showed being defeated, we can only assume this happened because battle wasn't fully shown. And if it lost it certainly wasn't easily. Rewatch battles again. Brock tried facing Molly mirage pokemon, he got easily defeated.

    Bot Misty not at all. Her Staryu successfully break trap made by whirlpool and bubble created by Mantine using rapid spin in opposing direction. And proceed to attack Mantine with barrage of takedowns being equal in strength. Same Mantine who was once again mirage pokemnon being several times stronger due to Unown from regular Mantine. Yet Misty Staryu was holding its own vs such force proving to be highly resistant, fast and dexterous of pokemon possessing remarkable strength.
    So no Staryu if anything pulled there impressive feat showing its true strength.
    In main anime granted it didn't had chance to shine as much as it could have, but way it quickly defeated Marina Tentacruew, Ash Butterfree, how it almost knocked down Ash Chikorita with single water gun with grass pokemon saving itself in last moment by digging heels in ground. How easily it break Weezing smokescreen dispersing it and knocking it to fly away, or Butch and Cassidy pokemon. Being used even in recent returns with strength of its attacks like simple bubble beam breaking TR giant mecha. Deserves credit.

    I didn't said Dawn, but compared to May she did. Count number of regular trainer battles May entered compared to Misty, you could count them on fingers. Yes May had contests as well, being more active in using her pokemon thats not arguable, but contest clashes are not same as trainer matches. In contests prefix is put on beauty and synchronization of techniques leaving impression on audience, with battles often being won through points rather than knocking opposing pokemon out. In trainer battles its more about type advantage, skilled use of your pokemon abilities to overcome opposing strength, on brute and direct power with resistance, strength of attacks and terrain itself playing factors in who would win.

    So in hardcore trainer battles when taking in account all battles Misty had in OS and now as gym leader she has more experience in that field than May . And that's understandable because May is first and foremost coordinator putting most of her time and focus on that kind of battles.

    Speaking of Iris NO she didn't. Iris entered more tournaments than Misty, but when we count number of trainers Iris fought there and outside of competitions including TR confrontations.

    And when we count all battles Misty had in Kanto, Orange Islands, Johto and afterwards. Both in competitions like battle for Togepi, Princess tournament , Seaking catching competition, Whirl Cup, vs various trainers like Joe and Giselle from pokemon school, vs Ash, Coastline gym leader, Sakura herself and her sister Sumomo, kid with Farfetchd, trainer with Remoraid, Andreas and his Poliwrath,Marina etc,m etc. When we count all battles Misty had vs wild pokemon, TR organization including Butch and Cassidy and vs Jessie and James. Because TR battles are still battles and do count whether people like them or not. Serving purpose of main protagonists if anything having chance to train their pokemon and put to practical use when facing them.

    Total number is by good margin bigger than number of battles Iris entered in total.
    Not counting non battling competitions which Iris or Misty entered with their pokemon of course like races etc.

    Don't believe me? Go ahead and count, you would be surprised by result.

    Were not on same page obviously, Because character development is not measured only by how much someone goal was explored and developed. That's goal progression. Character development entails how much someone's views and beliefs had evolved over time, changes in someone attitude and personality getting rid of bad habits and allowing other sides of his/her personality to come on surface and blossom. Character development entails how much you established bond with your pokemon in world like pokemon, how successfully you confronted your feats, obstacles and challenges with each step being testament to someone evolution as person.

    And Misty evolved ALOT as character, established strong bond and understanding with her pokemon team making name for herself as person and trainer already in OS where she was recognized by several trainers out there as skilled.
    Along with reaching close bond with Ash and Brock, becoming more understandable, responsible and independent.

    On football note, that's irrelevant to discussion. But to your info Croatia ending third in world champion of 1998 and now second in 2018 was hardly just luck, but spirit of teamwork, good strategy calls and not relying just on one star to lead whole team but unity of everyone giving their contribution to get good result.
    In soccer just like every sport a bit of luck is definitely needed to get desired result, but its not only factor deciding who wins and who does not.

    Was there luck on side of Croatia, yes there's no denying that but luck can only get you so far not being only reason.

    Misty was anything but background character in Kanto, Orange islands and Master Quest being active on regular basis, receiving lot of screentime, battling focus and proactive roles in resolving various plots and subplots.

    Examples you counted for other girls are things Misty also did. NOt proving your point at all.
    Your free to disagree but when it comes to building on relationships with others, coming to realize where she stands and what dreams she wants to follow in getting over complex of inferiority, her prejudices and stubborn hasty nature admitting to herself she wrongly judged people and pokemon(like Psyduck), in revealing from where her love for water pokemon comes from, in being thorn inside with feelings for others like Ash confusing her.

    In getting over Gyarados trauma, in making reconciliation with her selfish sisters or having her initial mask of tough mistrustful nature starting to crack over time revealing how beside hotheaded attitude she posses a lot more to her like sarcastic sense for humor, romantic and girly side, caring and kind side and competitive stride in herself. Making for a well rounded character.

    So yes Misty developed a lot but that development didn't happened through big arcs or at once but slowly and gradually with comparison between how she was in Kanto and nowadays showing most how much she grew so far.

    Compare Iris, Dawn, Serena how they were in beginnings to how far they came in end. To Misty or May changes who went through significant evolution in character growth developing deeper substance to their characters. And its not even arguable that those girls do not surpass Misty in personality growth as one of key points of character development at all.

    Not to mention those so called fillers your referring to were episodes where either Misty pokemon evolved, where we learned about her past, where she bobnd with her pokemon or faced challenges receiving character development. So labelling everything Misty did in Johto beside Whirl Cup as "pointless" and "irrelevant" would be huge understatement.

    So labelling Misty as background character who "did nothing" in Johto except enter one tournament needs serious reconsideration.

    Except mr. Shudo also mentioned in his blogs how he regrets for not putting Misty character to better use realizing she had a lot more potential to be developed and evolve story around her and how he had no choice but either to replace Misty or TR. He dud it unwillingly due to higher ups demanding someone to leave main cast and since mr. Shudo preferred TR over Misty its not secret why she ended up replaced.

    But he was not the only writer who wrote OS or made episodes focused directly or indirectly on Misty character and Atsuhiro Tomioka when speaking about Johto did pretty good job with Misty character and her story advancing more forward once Master Quest started and he succeeded eventually mr. Shudo as main writer.

    And one thing mr. Shudo did good about Misty was definitely her characterization and realistic believable character growth, how proactive she was in often taking initiative and being planner, voice of reason and common sense in main cast contributing a lot to Ash growth as trainer as supporting character, adding lot of humor, flare and lively atmosphere to journey along with her pokemon and provided new interesting take at that time on someone career and personal aspirations different from what Ash did by having water specialist who tried to reach high position as trainer in different way.

    Was Misty poorly handled in some aspects during her main run?
    That's undeniable, but she was not handled poorly in every aspect and all fields when kit comes to her storyline and role she played as main character in OS. Being in some fields better handled and adding more to table than some other girls.
    Same applies to your point of view, so further arguing leads nowhere so unless you wish to continue im done from my part.

    To be fair in OS there was never put emphasis on on screen training, so we as viewers were supposed to take Ash and co training their pokemon and working on improving skills as something which just happens being self explanatory. It was even mentioned in several OS episodes how training did happened despite not being shown on screen. In Mistry case we can see that when battling Marina in OI commenting on how well Misty trained it, when she claimed how she went with Corsola through rigorous training before Whirl Cup started etc, etc. Even in Ash case 90% of times instead of showing him train it was just mentioned that he trained his pokemon having to take it on his word.

    So there existed background to provide legitimate justification to some of Misty pokemon impressive feats in OS when facing tough pokemon, it just happens writers priority was never showing that directly prior to battles in OS with anime following different standards.

    Way i see it Misty was supposed to be portrayed from writing staff as decently competent battler in OS but not over the top that she would be untouchable or plot armor protecting her(like in Serena case) suffering defeats and her confidence backfiring at her at times. She was portrayed as someone who had talent and sharp mind in managing to find way out of challenging situations, but not being able to pout that always to good use giving iuzt message how she still has long way to go.

    Having rather humiliating defeats, but also fairly impressive feats during her run as main character like Staryu and that feat from movie i mentioned making sense given how much it was used and how it was portrayed as rather resistant and very battle oriented pokemon(possessing big willpower) in her team.
    Making her imo skilled but her behavior, talent not being sanded out and overconfidence showed at times often backfiring at her.

    In BW writers somewhat tried to emulate this with Iris character as well and her quest of becoming dragon master. But circumstances under which her Axew suddenly utilized strong move out of nowhere jut to return back to basic level forgetting it never being used again was much more inconsistent presentation of pokemon power, and same applies to Dragonite with whole taming, capture etc not being done in most believable and properly timed manner.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018

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