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Companion Pokémon: Downfall?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by KingMinun, Jul 18, 2018.

  1. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humanity's greatest soldier

    Well since last few days there has been some controversy around misty, so i will keep it short, first both her psyduck and politoed were gag pokemon whose main role was to bring humour, there have been gag pokemon after them who also provided humour but atleast got major character development like for example with oshowatt who had to learn to keep his eyes closed underwater or to be less dependent without its scalchop, both politoad and psyduck didn't have that kind of development otherwise psyduck would atleast learn how to swim, that shows its one dimensional characteristics. Some of her pokemon may have gotten personality and development but it is not comparable to things pokemon ash and other pokegirls owned. Dawn's togekiss had far far more personality than most of misty's pokemon had.

    No, its not debatable, movies are considered non canonical, most of the movie reference has been put in english dub by 4kids only. Its timeline may coincide with main anime but what happens in those movies are not considered canon. Staryu was getting dominated, it is not a weak pokemon but it hasn't has gotten major feats, we dont know how strong marina was, ash's chikorita at that time was newly caught and was a rookie, whereas butch and casidy aren't exactly the most strongest trainers. So yeah it is maybe above average at best. And yes totodile is to this day considered one of the weakest pokemon ash has ever owned.

    No contest battles are still considered battles, since it is part of her may's goal so it should be considered. As for iris she entered multiple battle tournaments and reached later stages in ost of them even winning one of them. Not to mention she had battle with a rival and even fought a champion, and no i wont count TR battles otherwise serena who is a non battler have many battles, no matter how you see it she was much busier than misty and point to be noted that misty was present in twice amount of episodes than iris was, for a girl to be present in about 280 episodes misty was present in much less battles compared to iris and may that pretty much shows her relevance.

    No doubt her character progressed during OS, but it was miniscale compard to ash and the other pokegirls like may, dawn, serena, lillie or iris. Most of her development came in the 4-5 chronicle specials that just shows her contribution to plot in main series. As for her relevance yes she was a background character throughout johto, even in master quest outside 3 parter whirl cup what did she bring to the main plot, what was her contribution in lugia arc or red gyaradis arc as i recall ritchie and lance were more active in those arcs, or what did she do in that suicune episode, or in league arc or in gym episodes. Most of her stuff in master quest were plain old boring fillers which contributed nothing to the plot. So yeah she was pretty irrelevant, the reason given for her exit over brock and TR was that she was the least relevant character in the main cast.

    And how did misty character had depper substance dawn, serena, may and lillie were all the beginners who had to work hard from the scratch and had far more impactfull episodes than she ever had. Dawn had to struggle with contests, may had to struggle with her own battling style, serena had to struggle with her mother's wish and rhyhorn racing, lillie had issues with touching pokemon, iris was struggling with coming to terms with drayden that had way more substance with anything misty did. Like i said most of her character development came in few chronicles episode.

    She never added anything more than table than any other girl. Iris was a better version of misty with many things done right this time, not only she battled a lot in short
    span of time, she even became a successor to a gym, had a rival, all of her pokemon had different traits. As for dragonite, it was handled much better than with gyarados which happened in one episode, controlling dragonite resembles iris struggles with becoming a strong dragon type trainer. So yeah it was handled much properly, you are right axew though.

    Lastly about football, croatia in 1990 were brilliant generation, but in 2018 they were very lucky, it snot gonna happen again that powerhouses like brazil, germany, argentina were knocked out before semifinal and teams like italy and netherlands even didn't qualify in the tournament. Croatia were practicaly given a silver plate in there hands with easy route to the finals unlike france, had spain not fired there coach 2 days before the world cup or belgium not foolishly beaten england they would both have beaten this croatian team easily, croatia couldn't even beat ordinary teams like denmark or russia in normal time. So yeah that was more luck and less strategy and team play.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
    Moonlight Starlight likes this.
  2. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    While I don't think Misty was void of substance, I do think they struggled to make her an ongoing presence for a large bulk of the series.

    One of the things I like as the show has went on is that the Pokemon teams tend to get more and more tightly knit as actual characters. In SM for example, a lot of them are comic relief (even Ash to some degree), but in a wacky and far less formula restricted series like SM, being comic relief is much more of a power, and we get all the Pokemon teams having interactions and distinct personalities and chemistries with their trainers and often that helps play into substance even when they're long term agendas and displays aren't brilliant.

    The main reasons the girls are still struggling is because this series has really went out of it's way to keep their teams stagnant, only developing in superficial ways like Mallow's Pokemon being fully evolved but still pretty one dimensional and undefined in how she uses it, or Lana getting a Z Move, but unlike Ash, Kiawe or even Team Rocket, it having no real defined purpose for her character and role. The only reasons either boosts seemed to occur was for a 'scout points' accomplishment to say they did SOMETHING, and also to keep their rare battles one sided so they don't even have to develop their involvement in that regard. Even worse unlike previous trainers, all the companions besides Lillie got their signature offscreen before the show started, so even the primary bonding and getting accustomed is skipped over, which isn't so bad for the boys because they got at least one new capture that added to their dynamic and offered new story material in some way, but leaves the girls without even a good start off point left to fall on.

    Also while, as stated, even Misty was allowed to occasionally struggle or suffer a 'loser' role to improve upon to give her pathos and fallibility and a great comedic side, only Lillie really supplies a lot of vulnerability and occasional adversity to give her agency as the timid but intellectual novice, otherwise the boys do nearly all the developed challenges and even most of the slapstick, with the girls kinda stuck in a limbo of mediocrity where they aren't allowed to be taken out of their comfort zone, but as a result aren't allowed to get defined shortcomings and thus better themselves at anything (even in minor stuff like the class exercises). It's gotten to the point we've had episodes that seem to focus dominantly on just the boy trio now because the efforts and chemistry of them and their Pokemon are much more developed and entertaining. Even in the UG episodes it is mostly the boys and Lillie that are in limelight with Mallow and Lana as third wheels.

    I actually will be interested in seeing how Misty gets an expanded role later on in SM, assuming it's more than just a cameo.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  3. Prof. SALTY

    Prof. SALTY The Scruffy Professor

    I mean... Misty and Brock caught a total of what... 2 new pokemon each for all of Kanto?

    I think the current cast has a good dynamic (with the exception of Mallow... she adds nothing). I like all the quirks each pokemon has and like the way they play off eachother. I wouldnt mind if the next series had a similar size cast and pokemon as long as they all had interesting personalities
     
  4. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    And only Psyduck and Vulpix were seen much in later stories besides TR battles. Horsie and Zubat barely got to do anything after their introduction (despite the latter evolving twice). While Ash had some low key members in Kanto, his main lot were seen routinely as characters and contributors to his goal and development. Even the likes of Pidgeotto and Primeape arguably got more limelight than most of Brock and Misty's Pokemon.

    I feel like maybe they should go back to three or four characters, since that's about the maximum for good chemistries, and trading off Mallow and Lana would have meant the others could have a couple more Pokemon and more limelight stories. I think I would have preferred Lillie having a secondary and Kiawe getting his third battler over Mallow and Lana and their one Pokemon teams, since it's obvious the Pokemon work better in team dynamics where they can gain more personality and substance and the trainers can get new starting points for development with new captures.

    It might have worked if the signatures all had the same level personality and development as Pikachu, who CAN hold story material for Ash single handed and plays off the rest of the universe well enough, but this is obviously not the case. Popplio and Tsareena struggle for relevance and character time without a foil, and even Turtonator was kinda underplayed until he got Marowak to bounce off of. Snowy kinda holds up for Lillie but even then is relatively dull compared to Pikachu, and Togedemaru works okay as comic relief but I'd still say her and Sophocles work better having caught Charjabug than not.

    It's a shame SM doesn't try as many dynamics between teams. Only Pikachu and Togedemaru interact a lot.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  5. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    Some yes, but i cannot agree with that in case of Psyduck, Poliwhirl(later Politoad)or Corsola to be fair. Not to mention i don't count Psyduck becoming more attached to Misty which was best displayed in Johto trying to protect her deepening on bond with trainer or how it became more competent(say what you want but in recent Misty return he was more competent)as irrelevant and not worth recognizing growth.,

    Likewise as i explained earlier Psyduck role in OS was primarily to provide humor and enrich on human pokemon interactions with its trainer and other pokemon. And Psyduck did that job great brimming with personality. OS were more about adventure, personality growth and evolution of friendship, with focus being accented on human emotions, protagonists introducing to viewers pokemon world and its mysteries and traveling itself. It was less about training or pokemon themselves receiving huge growth and I was fine with that. Because Misty and other characters managed to deliver regardless in other fields adding to anime overall enjoyment. At least to me.

    Unless its stated otherwise movies can be argued to follow timeline of main anime with fandom being heavily divided on this topic.
    Lets take some events in them for example pointing iout to be connected to main show:
    1st movie "Mewtwo Strikes Back": Mewtwo nearly killing Giovanni and battle betzween Giovanni and Gary was showerd. All of this took place in pokemon series during time Ash went to challenge Viridian gym.

    2nd movie "Power of One": Ash and friends mention during Silver arc in Whirl Islands side adventure how they already saw Lugia once in Orange Islands which took place around time 2nd movie aired)

    3rd movie "Spell of Unown": (Charific Valley and Ash Charizard were shown in there with Charizard after seeing Ash in trouble flying to help him fight Unown)

    4th movie "Celebii: Voice of the Forest": Ash saw Suicune and made reference to prof. Oak how he already met Suicune before(happened at start of Johto)

    7th movie "Destiny Deoxys": LaRousse City from movie was mentioned as May rival Drew hometown in anime

    8th movie "Lucario and the Mystery of Mew": special guardian aura sir Aaron and Ash showed in movie became continuous thing coming up several times in main series. During episodes "The Keystone pops"(featuring Spirtomb ) and in "Pokemon Ranger and the kidnapped Rolu" two part episodes. Followed with Riley and Lucaropo appearances in Team Galactic episodes.

    10th movie "Rise of Darkrai": Lunar wing Dawn bought in movie appeared in episode "Sleepless pre Battle" from Sinnoh series when Darkrai and Cresselia appeared. Minor thing but in episode "Sphere of Influence" in one of show displays space-time towers from that movie.

    Etc, etc.

    However based on all this references and throwbacks to movies happening in pokemon series its safe to make inference how events and timeline in movies could be considered as entangled within story of main anime. By covering aspects of journey which takes place between certain episodes based on items and remarks to scenes and incidents which were brought up at times in regular episodes.
    IMO they could in a way be viewed as some sort of complementation to main series story covering plots and events which otherwise couldn't have been showed in regular episodes, due to time constraints and predefined path through which tale would unfold and be told out to viewers.

    Of course this is just my view but its one of reasons why I disagree with view from part of fandom of movies not being canon.
    Likewise how was Staryu dominated? It countered all Mantine movies with ease not being much affected at all and was equal in power when they used take downs and dive attacks on each other.
    How string Marina was is unknown, but Staryu ability to that easily defeat final stage evolved pokemon which is not joke generally speaking like Tentcruel is not something to overlook easily. And that so called rookie Chikorita was same pokemon which gave Ash Charizard big problems during capture episode. Wild pokemon can be strong , anime showed that on many occasions. Buizel in DP for example very effectively showed this.

    Imo Staryu could be considered as one of Misty top pokemon in strength and durability(its no secret it can take a lot).

    Yes they are battles, but they follow entirely different rules. Coordinators mainly focus on combination of techniques from their pokemon for beauty purposes and how to leave bigger effect on judges when performing appeals. But in battling as well with elegant combinations and performance of attacks bringing you more points than just using direct approach going with raw strength at opponent. Hence explaining why for win knocking down opposing side pokemon isn't necessary.

    On other hand trainers are more focused on direct confrontation between pokemon in battle, coming up with strategy how to counter opposite moves and use them against themselves while working on strength of their pokemon attacks and resistance with real trainer battles being usually more demanding, straightforward and crude(sometimes even brutal) resulting in their pokemon usually being more sturdy. And its not controversial that by default while may had more experience in contests, Misty has more experience in regular battles.

    As for Iris amount of trainers she fought is still statistically lower than those Misty faced. How many of them were impressive or not to you is irrelevant in here, because point in here is that Misty was still more active in this department. Despite entering less tournaments.
    Nevertheless battles against Jessie and James cannot be ignored and discounted. t end of the day they are still battles and in reality do count.

    Some development happened in chronicles, but it wasn't more than everything she received during course of Kanto, OI and Johto. Her development didn't came from big prolonged arcs, but through individual episodes. Sometime in episodes which didn't directly focused on her. Through slow gradual progression over long period of time with Misty change coming in allowing other si9des of her personality coming on surface which were often overshadowed initially by temper tantrums. Through learning to appreciate and love her pokemon like Psyduck. In with time starting to open up more to her friends like Ash and Brock developing close bond. For example in Johto in one of episodes she confessed to Sakura that Ash and Brock are like her family revealing some real character development and serious bonding happening right there.

    Misty growth in OS happened through starting to view herself in independent a<nd confident manner realizing she is not inferior to older sibklngs and coming to understand through late Johto how she didn't choose wrong path in deciding to become water pokemon master and water specialist promising to herself she would reach that platou one day.

    Its easy for unaware people to get wrong impression how due to lack of frequent competitions otr big specific arcs were used to see in case of other girls through which most of their growth happened, how "in comparison Misty had not much growth".

    Because of simply overlooking how in Misty case majority of her growth in OS was scattered through individual episodes which are mistaken for fillers, through her different reactions toward other people and pokemon in general compared to her beginning days and through simply passage of time gradually showing changes in her behavior, thoughts indicating big growth.
    So its not that her growth was miniscule, it just happens it was rather scattered not being treated in logistic sense very well.

    Speaking of Johto episodes like her Poliwag evolving, capture of Corsola, episode with wild Macargo where Misty learned to accept different views from fire trainer revealing why she loves water pokemon were not fillers. Those episodes progressed Misty storyline giving her character development. Just like episodes "Just Add Water!" where Misty was distracted and concerned over failing herself not proving shes not inferior to older sisters to Dorian or act of deciding to risk her life for Psyduck(something she would never do before)was not pointless filler either. But once again character development.

    Same applies to episodes "For Crying Out Loud!" where she bonded with Marill coming to better understand water pokemon which was integral for her evolution of water specialist or "Hook, line and Stinker!" where Poliwhirl got over his lack of selfconfidence to be fillers. They're once again episodes providing better insight in Misty pokemon and provided realistic and valid development. I could list episodes from Johto whole day , where we got insight in Misty past, saw her working with her pokemon coming to better understand them, came to realize her own flaws. Which were not "pointless fillers" but episodes where her story moved forward.

    And becoming more understanding and compassionate as person realizing her errors and prejudices was not impactful for Misty character? Realizing why she loves water pokemon so much deciding how becoming water pokemon master is right way to go with her life? Getting over complex of inferiority imposed on her by older sisters? Coming to appreciate Psyduck as her pokemon accepting it despite its flaws? Her improvement as trainer which was recognized by others like Trinity or Dorian? Her chemistry with Ash and Brock becoming deep and sincere to point of considering them her family?
    All turmoils happening inside her developing romantic feelings toward Ash not being sure how to feel or act about this making amends over time how Ash is too clueless to understand this coming to peace with siutuatiobn.

    All of this was substantial followed by all development happening in chronicles making her deep and well rounded character. Character who evolved significantly in persona sense and her views to bigger degree than most girls honestly did.

    Let see what Misty added and other girls did not:
    She set groundwork for future girls to come introducing alongside Ash and Brock to viewers pokemon world
    Was Ash coach and mentor playing big role in his growth as trainer teaching him to be more humble and respectful
    With her tsundere traces of personality mixed with girly sweet side adding for more entertaining group atmosphere
    Often took initiative to move things forward on her own, directly influenced main plot and story on several occasions(whether it was by saving group from dangerous situations or saving protagonist lives see Ash and Tracey), played bigger role in Ash growth and development as trainer than any other successor after her did along with entering various competitions like Kanto race, Seaking contest, balloon race, Whirl Cup etc, battled various trainers and bond with other characters giving us insight in her issues such as conflict with siblings, preference for water types etc along with collecting several pokemon during her travels bringing identity and balance in main cast.

    Giving her signature to pokemon anime at that time playing valid factor in series appeal for both boys and girls. Books like "Anime Classics Zettai, 100 must see Japanese masterpieces!", "Japanification of children popular culture!" etc described Misty importance pretty well and everything she brought to table.

    Additionally i don't evaluate someones merit and value by how much someone does, but by how impacting character to anime and storyline was and how important his deeds were. And in that sense i can say how Misty added more humor, drama and genuine, amusing interactions between characters bringing overall more charisma to anime with her quirky persona, had more interesting story by having to grow up without parents in older sister shadow pursuing water master carer which offered potential to be took in many directions adding for unpredictability.

    And I can say in those aspects Misty was handled better than Iris for me.

    In sport luck is always present. It can happen that on paper superior team struggles to some "third rate" football team not managing to score goal, just to end up receiving one themselves losing. There is no guarantee that big names are gonna win always. Croatia having to go in extra time with Denmark or Russia was not sign of them being weak team, but more so display of strong determination and big desire to win existing in them. Having required composure and willpower to go all way through.

    Croatia success served as inspiration to many small countries how if desire is strong enough, how if you manage to unite whole team toward one objective living their best anything is possible. Not needing superstars like Messi or Ronaldo to win if all 11 players on field work as one striving toward several of them presenting danger for opposing goal rather than banking just on one or two.

    Likewise like I said getting one or two wins that way may be called pure luck, but when you see team go all way toward finals, than its not just luck but quality of players Croatia had and strong teamwork.

    With not enough credit being given in here.
     
  6. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    I feel like Misty's screentime would be seen as more reasonable if the series she was in was diluted to it's more meaningful episodes, rather than a five season series that was infamously filled with many pointless COTD fillers later in it's run. There were SOME meaningful episodes with Misty in Johto but I guess the issue is that you had to get through recurring lulls of episodes she and Brock are just standing in the background maybe offering the odd bit of snarky commentary.

    This is maybe why BW-SM feels more balanced in that regard because even if companions aren't used to any greater level, the screentime is shorter meaning less time for fillers or characters in queue for their limelight. Most of the characters maybe get one season of lull at most before they get at least SOMETHING to do, eg. Serena and Clemont switching prominence halfway through the three season XY, Lillie's arc starting off subtle in Season One of SM and then going full throttle at the very start of Season Two. Also BW and SM at least are better known for group wide situations where more than one character takes part. Kanto had this initially but by Johto only the odd time wasn't just Ash or just Misty (I won't say there were many 'just Brock' situations :p).

    I think what also helped her later appearances in Chronicles and what not is that there was a more defined supporting cast in them, meaning more meaningful people to bounce off of as her banter with Ash slowly fizzled.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  7. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humanity's greatest soldier

    OS focussed on adventure, humour it's true but the same pokemon like bulbasaur, charizard, pikachu, bayleef got excellent chaacter development in addition to having different traits compare that to psyduck or even any of brock's pokemon you will find out how much they were lacking, simply put writers weren't sure what to do with both of there pokemon. So yeah when you compare to ash's pokemon it is definitely lacking.

    Pokemon movies follow the anime route but the plot of the movie are considered non canon, it was mentioned many times before. There are many cases where a fully evolved pokemon have been oneshotted so that doesn't mean marina's tenntcruel was very strong. The only reason charizard had troubles were because it wasn't trying, besides the same chikorita was only easily defeated by falkner's hoot hoot in the first gym, so yeah chikorita at that time was a rookie. Star yu was strong but it didn't have any major feats.

    Of course i will add coordinators battles since it was a goal of may, and she participated a lot of it so yeah that's why she battled more than misty, iris on the other hand was only around 140 episodes compared to misty who was around 280 episodes, iris participated in three big tournaments, in addition to facing her rival georgia, facing gym leader drayden, gym leader clair, and many others even you can see that she was involved in many important high profile battles than misty who mostly battled with COTD and TR and of course TR should not count since 99% of time they are just gag members. So yeah of course if you look at it iris on average battled in lik every 4-5 episodes whereas misty battled in every 10 episodes.

    I don't think anyone had major character development in kanto arc since it was only humour based series with less focus on individuals, even ash started to grow as an individual from johto onwards. As for original trio no doubt they had close bond but so were ash, iris and cilan as well as DP trio, XY quartet also were family which was mentioned many times they were like family. DP series was the series where all the cast pokemon interacted the most with each other, and the pokemon family word was used most in this series. Misty was already and independent girl before she even meet ash, and the whole inferiority complex with her sisters were pretty stupid in first place, her sisters were already good for nothing who couldn't even battle and just awarded the badges in charity, that just shows you how worthless they really were. Misty was already better than them from the start so this inferiority complex was meaningless in the first place.

    There is no doubt that she developed but her development was less and unimpressive when compared to later pokegirls like dawn, may, serena, liilie and iris. She already loved water types from the start, and her inferioirity complex was already meaningless in first place. All the other pokegirls got far more character development than her in the first place. May, dawn and serena had active goals which gave them every episode now and then to improve which wasn't the case with misty. Even iris had a well rounded team and had to struggle to become potential successor of strongest gym in unnova region had far more substance than misty had. As for romance it was already mentioned by the writers that misty never had romantic feelings for ash and considered him a close friend, and thus were never mend to be couple, simply put they were more than friends and less than lovers type relations. There is only girl who have been pushed by writers as love interest on ash. So yeah misty was not well rounded character and the only pokegirls she was better than is lana and mallow. Rest of them way surpass misty. Lol even the pokemon writers have acknowledged that misty was least relevant character in the johto and needed a replacement.

    Misty didn't lay any groundwork for future girls, more like future girls like may and dawn improved than her and were catalyst in avoiding a fact that girls could be usefull and could have there own quest which was done by them unlike yugioh series.
    Misty was never a coach of ash, she only helped him once in indigo league third round with pikachu vs arcanine, brock was the one who used to advice him often, even in johto where ash became pretty independent character brock helped him there as well sometimes.
    She was tsundere but definitely not girly that's why many even call her obnoxius. She didn't played most role with ash's growth, i do say dawn had more role than misty, ash took many of dawn's battling technique and used it in his battles, not to mention ash and dawn had the best chemistry out of any pokegirl. Even serena had big role in XY, she was directly or indirectly responsible in ash getting 3 out of 8 gym badges ash got in kalos and not to mention she was instrumental in getting out of his despair after losing snowbelle gym. Just watch DP and XY series, they are not only better series than OS but had better characters as well.

    Misty was a typical girl who was received better in west than in japan, besides many of the pokegirls have been regarded positively, that's the reason why dawn and serena were highly ranked in official anime girls ranking during the time when DP and XY aired. Sure she brought humour but dawn had the most charisma out of all the pokegirls she was basically the co star of the show a status which no one in the show has ever got.

    Croatia going to penalties to beat denmark and russia just proves that croatia weren't worthy enough to reach the finals. Otherwise why did spain spanked them in nations league and england dominated them at there own home stadium. They were totally poor and didn't deserve to reach the finals, same thing happend 2 years before but croatia lost to portugal a strong team in first knockout stage. Croatia is not a inspiration, i would rather take netherlands our greatest rival as inspiration to be successfull despite being a small nation, that country has a legacy of playing great football. Croatia of 2018 will go down as worst finalist with germany of 2002.

    If croatia seriusly had quality they would have been better in knockouts like france who beat all the world class teams in normal time despite not being at there best.
     
  8. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    I admit while Misty's chemistry with Ash was good, it didn't really feel she was effective as a "coach" in particular, Ash usually listened to other characters like Brock before her while Misty just fuelled Ash's ego because she seldom understood you could catch more flies with honey than vinegar. I only remember the odd time Ash begrudgingly took Misty's advice about his direction of things, otherwise she lathered it in too many insults that the context was lost and he just snapped back at her.

    Even when Ash became the temperamental intermediate in AG, he could more often lay off May enough to give her meaningful advice.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  9. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    Who's weaker?
     
  10. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humanity's greatest soldier

    To this day, i think ash's totodile has least feats with him, even oshowatt and scraggy had better feats than him in BW.
     
  11. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    I'm agreeing with you and that's why I'm asking @pokemon fan 132 who's weaker since he's claiming "it's just a claim". I mean, so what if it's just a claim. It's a true claim.
     
  12. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    One of the things I've noticed in SM is that Ash himself seems to be contributing more as a supporting character than a lot of the companions are ironically, in that he and his team are finely knit according to many stories and despite taking up a lot of limelight, he and they tend to be responsible for a lot of world building.

    Let's take the rivals for example, in most previous series they were built around HIM. They were satellite characters for Ash or if they were like Alain, they were their own characters who got forced into the role of rival later on. In SM it's the other way round, in that several characters are introduced as rivals to Ash only as a build up to their own big roles afterwards (eg. Tapu Koko, Gladion, Masked Royal and Incineroar). Even Lillie's butler got a cool introduction being Rowlet's first battle opponent. Add to that he's more developed for good interactions and chemistries with nearly everyone this series, so he serves well as a supporting character for each companion.

    Take Kiawe's limelight for example, his first episode was mostly Ash's POV learning about him and what he's about, his second was more from his own POV but Ash having a large supporting role helping with his first major change up. The third is mostly Kiawe solitary in developing on said change up, with Ash there for support but not intervening for the most part. Some of the other companions follow a similar cycle with their episodes, but with varying effectiveness.

    This is a pretty clever way to build on the show's universe while still developing on the main character without making him too all encompassing. It helps also that, judging by the recent previews, all his Pokemon take turns being a signature against a particular rival, meaning their use and development all tends to be relevant to the plot long term. The main problem is that a lot of the actual supporting characters aren't as effective.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
    FlygontheRavager likes this.
  13. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humanity's greatest soldier

    Probably because gladion is a well developed game character and is brother of lillie which gives extra leverage but the anime gladion is watered down version of edgelord game gladion. Alain was also developed character before meeting ash, i think gary was independent character probably because he was a game character, rest of the rivals were just anime only and thus were centered around ash.
     
  14. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    I think the thing with Alain however is that he was designed to be the 'dream smasher' rival but they wanted him to be a sympathetic character so gave him solo limelight first. This arguably worked TOO well because before this was revealed by the creative team, he was so distant from the main story that a few fans thought he'd got awkwardly shanghaied into the role of Ash's rival as an afterthought. For the SM rivals, Ash's rivalry serves as the starting point with the individual limelight coming after they've contributed to the main cast.

    This could apply to Kiawe as well, he was originally Ash's sparring partner and mentor, he served to introduce the Z Moves and explain their lore in the show (which obviously meant equipping him with the appropriate gimmick), with his more individual focus coming afterwards. This came in handy because it allowed Kiawe to start the show in a relevant role and a good starting point to give him substance to expand on.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  15. Zhydra

    Zhydra Master of Chaos!

    I am going to regret asking, but how was Gladion watered down from the games besides the fact that he didn't come from a back ground of being abused like in either vanilla S/M or US/UM?

    He still took Type:Null and ran from home with the intent on fighting Ultra Beasts and protecting his sister from more trouble, he still has a grudge against Lusamine. (For the rather startling amounts of neglect that he called her out on.)
    In fact Gladion was actually there for both the Mother Beast encounter and the Necrozma fight in the anime... compared to the games where he was absent from both.

    He still has some rather sharp poses fitting for him, he has a few pokemon that match the edgy vibe. (Umbreon and midnight Lycanroc.) He is still Mr. Loner as well.

    The big difference that thankfully got expanded upon in US/UM (and to a lesser extent the Manga as well.) is that Gladion's character isn't just about being a generic edge lord you see in practically everywhere, he has quite a few worries revolving around family and keeping things from falling apart. (In the games and Manga... keeping them from falling apart anymore than it already did.)

    Again, the anime took away the abused child background, so they worked with something else that personally... I liked how it was handled. Even though I liked how he was handled in US/UM better. (He got a much better ending in that game compared to vanilla and his big deal of taking Type:Null and running was better expanded upon.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  16. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humanity's greatest soldier

    Just look at the SM game and gladion there was a total edgelord and pissed off at the protagonist, in the anime he has made friendship with ash and in the games he was totally against lusamine in the anime he has come to terms with her, though lusamine here is not a villain. Still i would consider him as one of the best in SM but he is not as edgy here like in the games.
     
  17. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    At the same time he has questioned or butted heads with some of Ash's actions, and was pretty damn ticked when he regressed Lillie by accident.

    I think the bigger problem with Gladion is the changes in backstory giving him bizarre priorities. He wants to help Lillie and doesn't trust Faba, but at the same time he decided to run away and get stronger rather than explain what had happened to Lillie and help her recover, because surely Faba wouldn't have lied about the whole thing to save his own skin (what is it with all the heroes being super gullible around the villains in the anime?). :p
     
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  18. Zhydra

    Zhydra Master of Chaos!

    Maybe because Gladion thought Lusamine knew of the incident and flat out didn't care and technically he was working with stolen property when he finally acted? What was he to do when the adults were useless and untrustworthy? It is a lot for a child to go through by himself.

    It was already an established problem that Lusamine spent more time with work than she did being a parent to her kids and Gladion was STILL terrified of how much of an ignorant ditz she was. (And cared more about the fact that Faba was opening wormholes without anyone's permission than she did about how the beast that came out traumatized Lillie. Gladion had every right to call this woman out.)
     
  19. LilligantLewis

    LilligantLewis primarina donna

    What do the last few posts have to do with this thread at all?? This thread is about companions' Pokémon.
     
  20. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    Well I'm stumped what else to say about Gladion anyway.

    I think a few companion's Pokemon are assisted by the fact that they compliment their characters.

    Sophocles and Clemont are both comic relief/tech guys for example, but I guess what helps Sophocles is that, despite being even less in on the action than Clemont, is that his Pokemon team compliment that trait a lot more. Togedemaru and Charjabug have chemistry with him and their abilities, while limited, work into his scientific hobbies and Electric specialty. None of Clemont's travelling Pokemon really do that. The ones that potentially could are either deposited at the gym or rarely used.

    Kiawe and Mallow are both sort of the Team Mom and Dad and explain everything about Alolan lore and culture and what not. But Kiawe being a battler/Z Move enthusiast works into his role as a trainer as well because he has powerhouses that can use the Z Moves and they have personalities that play to his own hot headed character. Tsareena is Mallow's only Pokemon and doesn't really bounce off of Mallow very much, we don't see her abilities come in handy much with the restaurant and if anything she's become kinda distant around the other Pokemon, while making her motherly to them like Mallow is to the human companions could have made some sort of connection in role (even Dawn's Togekiss was redeemed a little by this as it gave her some sort of actual use within the dynamic).
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018

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