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Companion Pokémon: Downfall?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Animé Discussion' started by KingMinun, Jul 18, 2018.

  1. Zhydra

    Zhydra Master of Chaos!

    Let's not forget Lillie and the big role that Snowy has with her.

    That Vulpix is for the most part, her therapy pokemon during her constant trauma loop, once the Aether Arc came to a close... that Vulpix became the main cause of Lillie's slow but sure growth long after her big arc was finished. (She became much more bold in contrast to that timid wimp she was at the start of the series.) Hopefully we see more development soon. (Snowy learning a new move, evolution... maybe Lillie catching something to work on par with that dynamic.)
  2. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    Yeah I think Lillie is a 'one capture' trainer that worked okay, though even then a secondary would likely still help strengthen her dynamic and progression, and make Snowy less of a satellite character. Her getting a Z Move could be handy, but only if she has more relevant use for it than Lana.

    It also helps that Snowy was caught and bonded with onscreen after we'd been introduced to Lillie and her character. With Lana and Mallow, that part was skipped over (though we do at least get a flashback for Lana and Popplio). There was more stuff left for Lillie to do with her signature.

    The same thing happened with Ash, Kiawe and Sophocles of course, but since they got their secondaries a short time after, there was still new development territory for them (plus establishing Kiawe and Turtonator as a badass from the start was helpful to character establishment).
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
    satopi, Pokegirl Fan~ and Zhydra like this.
  3. Kintaro

    Kintaro Banned

    The point is as a Poliwag it didn't really have much personality (and it only appeared in a few eps in early Johto and we barely saw it). As a Poliwhirl it did, but then once it became Politoed it's personality completely changed into something different because that's how Politoed is portrayed always.

    I honestly think it should have remained a Poliwhirl, obviously it happened because we were in Johto and Politoed was a new evolution at the time. But Poliwhirl had a good personality (for an OS pokemon, anyway), and Politoed just felt like it changed into a completely different pokemon.
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  4. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    Belated reply, but i couldn't respond earlier so here goes:
    For sake of trying not to derail this thread further my responses will be under spoiler, replying solely to defend my views which were challenged in first place.
    Ignoring how OS was much more Ash centric than subsequent series with Misty and Brock being there more to provide him moral support and serve as catalyst through which he would advance forward. Or how their role was more so on bringing emotion and colorful interactions to anime as whole, getting pokemon world closer to viewers and promote anime message of adventure, unity of friendship, traveling aspect of exploring new mysteries, creatures, towns and people promoting world building.
    While just like future companions still having their pokemon, dreams aspirations and storyline making through their importance help anime reach global popularity and ensure to exist for many future generations to come due to setting up pillars, established groundwork on which futures tories and adventures were told.

    When it was mentioned how movies are not canon, and where exactly? Unless it was officially stated jury is still out with arbitrary claims like this being just that. Claims and someone personal views on whole subject rather than fact. On other hand i provided several examples from movies which directly or indirectly followed what happened in anime(one of most prominent ones being incidents from first movie).

    Usually when fully evolved pokemon gets one shot its not because that pokemon in n question was weak, but more so opposing side being just that strong. So since we do not have reliable way to deduce how strong Marina was we cannot discredit Staryu feat from there.

    Once again using inconsistent comparison. Charizard "not trying", "Chikorita being rookie meaning she was automatically weak" etc. Ignoring how pokemon can be both rookie for trainer standards and still strong with that Chikorita being very stubborn and battle spirited.

    Once again comparing coordinator battles to regular trainer battles is like comparing apples to oranges. They do not compare and must be treated individually. May had more contest battles since she was by default coordinator, and therefore this increased her activity overall compared to Misty. But when talking about real trainer battles and experience given from it Misty battled much more in that field.

    Iris no matter from what angle you look at it was overall less active and had less development than Misty. Just because you choose to ignore trainers Misty battled devaluing their importance for her growth as trainer or don't recognize TR battles as what they arte(battles) does not change this.

    Ill give you Iris was handled better in terms of her goal despite all misses being handled in more elaborate way alongside having actually recurring rival.

    But Misty had better character development in personality sense, caught more pokemon sticking better to her water trainer theme, had better and multidimensional interactions with Ash and others due to having two way street in dynamic and overall had more battles and activity when participating in many subplots.

    That's purely subjective of course but way i see it original trio played out better in their friendship feeling highly profound and realistic. From Ash's naivete and stupidity, to Misty sarcastic remarks and funny moments of anger and caring side acting as push for Ash to be better when doubting in him to Brock figure of being like older brother to them providing his knowledge and tips in needed situations. They felt like close group of friends which fulfilled each other in genuine, natural and enjoyable manner making things worth watching.
    Whether word family was used in other groups or not that does not say much if there's not enough substance and emotion put into all cast members to back this up. And this is how i felt for them in general. Not reaching high standards original trio set up imo.

    Complex from inferiority wasn't meaningless. Because it served purpose of getting deeper in Misty psyche and why she acted so untrusty and abrasive in first place. It gave us insight in Misty pretty sad background if growing without parents and being demoralized and ignored by her siblings leaving effect on her and forcing her to toughen up and grow up prematurely.

    With act of Misty finally being able to see herself as just as good, actually better than sisters strengthening her character, her desire to reach ultimate goals and become more assured in herself as person and trainer.

    Development came in expanding on Misty love for water types getting viewers closer to understanding why she loves them so much in first place. It thrived on Misty desire to become water pokemon master with events like Whirl islands shedding some light on what's that supposed to mean showing there exists concrete steps your supposed to overcome to come one step closer. It expanded on Misty love in her coming to realize how long she has to go deciding by late Johto how she choose right path to follow reassuring her initial thoughts and provided another direction through which her life could go some day. Based on interest showed in E4 members like Lorelei wanting to reach such level eventually.

    While for complex of inferiority i already explained above why it was indeed very relevant for Misty growth as person.

    Likewise Misty may had less cogent storyline which was dissipated and inconsistently handled, but she developed in personality sense far more than i can say for most other travel companions. Going from temperament, hostile and stubborn girl in mature, competent, compassionate female gaining new interesting sides to her(like pride, slight arrogance, more playful nature and independence). Growing in more independent, openminded and sure in her own qualities person developing close attachment and appreciation for her only friends at that time in life(Brock and Ash toward who she arguably developed something more than friendship)..

    Resulting in not just overcoming complex of feeling inferior to older sisters, but also becoming more accepting of her pokemon such as Psyduck regardless of its handicap, being influenced by Ash reckless, persistence nature in risking his own life to save pokemon. Starting to look on pokemon she may disliked herself through different eyes trying not to make differences between them helping her to overcome childhood trauma of Gyarados.

    Got recognized by several veterans out there as talented water trainer through high feats and competitions she entered, saved gym frim being shut down and losing her sassy, hotheaded and quirky nature complimenting well her evolution as person.

    While May or Dawn for example moved story through their own dreams which got better explored, Misty merit imo stems from playing vital roe in Ash development as trainer, helping him to become more humble and rationale person. While often through their wisdom, curiosity and knowledge they helped move journey forward. Something we cannot discredit and ignore. Im not gonna count Serena, she was handled pretty poorly for good chunk of series honestly not being more active at all.

    Speaking of whole romance subplot, that words came only from mr. Shudo who himself mentioned in blogs how he often git in clash with producers but rest of writing team as well. With direction in which anime was taken diverting from what he planned in first place becoming frustrated with nit. Indicating how not all writers shared same view about pokemon anime and characters as he did, including Misty. And way some episodes were written especially in Orange Islands, or moments like Misty jealousy over other girls in Johto, blushing or trying to change subject whenever someone implied she may love Ash, becoming more concerned and caring for Ash followed by even in chronicles revealing to still harbor some feelings indicated how not all writers shared same sentiment in here.

    This goes for Misty replacement eventually as well not knowing if decision was unanimous from all members of writing staff knowing only how Takeshi Shudo felt about character, but not everyone else. Likewise Shudo himself stared how it wasn't his decision to replace any character, being imposed on him to get rid of someone, and at that time characters who were most in danger of getting axe were Misty and TR, leaving later around due to preferring them personally. But does that mean Misty did not had potential and enough appeal to warrant keeping her around if things changed and more care and thought was out in her character. Absolutely NO.
    Except she did, she was original pokemon girl who break ice, pave path for new girls to come. Contributing heavily to pokemon initial success and popularity alongside Ash and Brock.
    Your definition of useful for my taste seem rather narrowminded because term useful can have several connotations and meanings. Just because Misty did not had token collecting quest does not make her worse or inferior to other girls.

    Misty was both coach and mentor leaving huge influence on Ash development in early days.
    She helped Ash to get on his feat in becoming stronger trainer, Challenged his ego, criticized him for his flaws, arrogance and slacking around in not taking training seriously. Pushed him to become stronger through her sarcasm, hotheaded and stubborn nature matching Ash impulsive, brash attitude. We can see that in numerous examples such as: forcing him to train instead of being lazy before Indigo league started, warning him how he's too irresponsible and self confident.

    Gave him motivational speech and encouragement after losing in his first league in her own manner snapping Ash out of trans. Often through her intelligence solved riddles and puzzles heling Ash to pass initial tests and challenge gym leaders like Blaine.
    Often instructed Ash on daily life dangers teaching him not to be so much gullible, this was especially noticeable in Orange Islands and even Johto with Ash often being ready to walk in TR trap just to be stopped by Misty seeing through Jessie or James plan.

    We can see Misty support and mentorship coming into play in many other situations like becoming later Ash sparing partner often battling side by side with him vs villains. In warning him about type advantage like for example sending Phanphy to battle Dewgong proving to be mistake. Helping get Ash stolen egg before Larvitar hatched. Encouraging Ash after losing to believe in himself and just adapt and find better strategy not allowing him to self pity himself. But get up and learn from his mistakes etc, etc. So no Misty played big role in Ash trainer growth in OS.

    Much bigger than any other girl had including Dawn, because she prepared Ash alongside with Brock for outside world dangers and dishonest people. Taught him to be more observant and humble growing responsible not just as character but trainer as well. This applies to Brock too who provided bigger aid in pokemon strategies. While Misty was more so voice of reason and someone who provided emotional support and motivation for Ash to keep trying.

    Again incorrect, Misty beside being tomboyish was girly liking feminine things, perfumes, dresses and had romantic dreamy side in herself displayed on many occasions. Exactly because of both sarcastic and temperament nature not being damsel in distress but also having girly caring side to her not needing to sacrifice femininity to be strong and tough was ome of key factors behind this character appeal in first place and why she reached such outstasnding popularity. Something books i listed in previous response explained in detailed way.

    Lastly for record i watched all series and i can still say OS had most or just as many charismatic characters and did quite a few things berter than DP or XYZ. Granted it did some things worse as well, but there's no black and white answer in here.
    Misty was way i see it rather complex character not being one dimensional. She had particularly nuanced personality having several recognizable traits about her with some being rather beneath surface due to her temper and hotheaded nature overshadowing them. With OS and later cameos, chronicles gradually revealing more of her background and characterization making for complete character to be honest. Not to mention Dawn may have been co star, but Misty if you ask me was more charismatic overall, adding imo more humor, flare and wider diapason of emotions to show atmosphere bringing strong identity to OS and bouncing great with Ash, Brock and others.

    That doesn't mean Dawn was inferior character, she had great achievements and was to this day girl with best handled goal. But in other fields i feel Misty brought more on table to me.
    "Post hoc ergo propter hoc!"

    "Croatia lost badly to Spain, therefore it must mean they're weak football team!".

    Ignoring how at time nations league started several players from first set left representation with coach being forced to look for their replacements. Which were not both forged or played enough to build themselves as proper team yet. As well ignoring how every player in sport and every team can and will have bad day breaking apart. It happens to everyone including very best.

    Logic of Croatia needing to go to extra time to beat Denmark or Russia can be applied to Spain as well. Who also had to go to extra time with Russia but unlike Croatia Span lost to Russia. "Must mean Russia is stronger than Spain!"
    By such logic fact that Argentina against Island only tied in result "must mean Argentina is weak".

    Things don't work that way in sport, representation with higher reputation and history often have bad habit of underestimating football teams which don't have as many feats as they have just to end up such overconfidence backfiring at them.
    In football just like any sport anything can happen with Croatia fairly ending in finals with luck not being only factor carrying them through whole competition.
    Claims have to be backed up by facts if you ask me to determine how much weight certain assessment has behind it. Labelling Totodile as Ash weakest pokemon just because does not seem like highly convincing argument to me. Not to mention at end of the day in pokemon battles outcome is not only determined by pokemon itself but trainer too and Ash in Coastline gym demonstrated poor knowledge and management when battling is taking place underwater and i can accept that because he didn't had much opportunity to build up experience in that area up to that point.
  5. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humans are tools

    Lol all the series has been ash centric (even DP where dawn got co star role), but still other pokegirls were still far more relevant, there has been good friendship among all the groups, XY group looked like a family, DP group had the best chemistry between the cast's pokemon and the family word was used most of the times in this series whenever any new pokemon joined the main cast. The only reason the riginal trio is remembered because of nostalgia.

    Where has it confirmed that movies ar canon, most of the movie relevance in main anime has been dub added. Marina was never confirmed to be a very strong trainer, she was just a decent trainer as well. Same with chikorita, it wasn't a powerhouse, just look at the way it lost easily in the first gym, so therefore staryu cannot be deemed a big powerhouse.

    May may not have too much official battles but she definitely had contest battles which was her main goals so yes we should add that as we;;, at least this kept her relevant. As for iris she had far more important battles than misty had in half timespan. Not to mention iris had better pokemon, all her pokemon have different traits and had there own focus something misty and her pokemon lacked, iris had her own opelucid gym arc in which she got the resolve to become stronger and get over fear of drayden that's called character development.

    TR battles may count as battles but they dont as official matches, besides iris had battles which helped become stronger and form close bond with her pokemon, like with excadrill and dragontie. Iris even had her own rival in georgia, misty is the only pokegirl until SM cast who doesn't have her own rival. Pretty much shows how she was handled.

    Of course her inferioirity complex was stupid in first place, her sisters were worthless, so to say that she was jealous of them was plain rubbish, they were too afriaid of battling s they give badges for free. Misty from day 1 was better battler than her sisters, so this was stupidity. Why didn't she challenged her sisters in the beginning when she caught staryu and starmi, she would have thrashed them.

    The thing she was in the cast for around 280 episodes and just count how many episodes she got focus in and how many of them were pointless fillers, just shows how much irrelevant misty was in johto (even in master quest), just ask anyone in this forum they will say the same thing. Compare that to other pokegirls and there quest misty's development is small.

    You keep on repeating whirl cup arc since that was the only relevant thing misty did in johto, but compare that to other girls arc you wil see the big gap between the care given to other girls. She wasn't the only independent girl, all girls became independent like may who had to go to johto to find her own style or serena or dawn who had gone to hoenn region to perfect there skills. As for friendship all the companions had good relationship with ash.

    All the characters who had been with ash have shown recklessness serena jumped to protect her eevee and fenekin from TR, cilan did the same in the specials episode with brock, iris, may, dawn and clemont have all shown recklessness so it's nothing new with misty. I think you have only seen OS.

    May , dawn and serena had there own quest so they were heavily involved in that and were frequently getting episodes so they were busy in that unlike brock and misty who were sitting idly by doing nothing.Still dawn and serena had more influence in ash's gym quest than misty, ash took on dawn's spinning move for first gym and got influenced by her for his counter shield, same way serena did help ash after her loss in first and 8th gym, this is something even ash acknowledged. As for serena she was handled much better than misty in all departments despite her arc starting rather late. She got better character development, goal progression, all her pokemon got btter developed. Her episodes were considered some of the best in XY series.

    Shudo is the main writer and his ideas were taken in the series, shudo also wanted to add many plots in OS which the other writers didn't favour and thus we got fillerfest. Allso shudo is the only guy who had his own blog and was allowed to talk about the characters, any other writer if allowed would have said the same. The reason why he chooced TR over misty is because they provide the humour which kept younger audience happy.Misty having potential means nothing, all the characters ha potential, we are talking about the end result we got.

    As for romance again most of this was english dub added, but regarding in OI they may have some moments but it was pretty evident that the ship was given slow death in johto series. Misty wasn't jealous of macy she was pissed off because macy insulted water types. Besides if there was romantic angle then it would have evident during misty's cameo in AG and SM, she even didn't had proper interaction with ash forget about romantic moment. I can bet the same will happen with her upcoming cameo. Besides the same producer from the OS was the one who came up with the idea of amourshipping, so why would they have romantic moment with misty, the only girl with canon love interest with ash is serena and the anime confirmed it.

    Just because she is the first of companions doesn't mean she is the best that's nostalgia and that's the main reason why she is still remembered. As for having own arc, in a series which is focussed on ash having own arc is very much necessary for character development this is something may, dawn, serena and lillie all ahd gotten, and if you look the best episodes of AG, XY, DP and SM its focussed on the pokegirls compare that to most impactfull episode misty ever had, i think it was the episode in which she left the cast for the final time. That's the difference between having an arc to yourself which misty didn't have.

    She was never her coach, lets get that straight, she may be sarcastic towards him but it didn't had any affect on him anyways, besides misty herself had limited knowledge of pokemon she even didn't know what mean look was, brock was the real coach who helped him, even motivated him sometimes and trained with him in DP and AG. Misty may have tried to help but she wasn't successfull in making ash do anything, even her motivational speech felt in deaf ears as ash just shrugged her. That's not how proper coach operates. So no she just happens to be around the rookie version of ash, even iris cheered for ash during his battles. As for larvitar arc, it was totally focussed on ash and larvitar relationship with brock and misty doing nothing. That's why it was scared of them for most ot the times, so no she didn't help ash in keeping larvitar. Besides during johto there were many times where ash was able to win even with misty saying him not to do that like with morty and chuck's gym.

    Again she didn't prepared ash in anything ash was headstrong from the start infact there were many instances where ash did opposite of misty's advice like with primeape and lapras, or to rescue baby lugia from TR he did it on his own. Misty may have little influence but ash's determination is the ain reason why he became headstrong. The only reason the characters in OS (mainly kanto) were more charismatic because kanto was more character personality and humour based series than plot based, but still from OI it started to mild down, still most of the people will prefer XY/DP over OS anyday the storyline is much better written and had better characters than OS. So no DP/XY hdid better than OS in most things only and idiot will say otherwise

    Misty is not a well rounded character, the other pokegirls just came out better than her. As for her popularity it's mainly because of nostalgia, even then in japan during 2013 poll she was ranked lowly 5th even behind iris and cynthia. You take out nostalgia she will be forgotten. Pokegirls like dawn and serena were also ranked highly in japanese polls during there respective series.

    Dawn is by far the best developed pokegirl in the show in all fronts, even her relationship with ash was most developed than any other character in the show. Dont even dare put misty and dawn in the same line. Misty is only above the girls like lana and mallow the ret of them surpasses her.

    Eh, croatia was rubbish in ths world cup, thank god france showed them there real face in the finals. They were given road to fianls in a silver plate , any quality team would have destroyed croatia and that's what spain did 2 months later. Spain only lost to russia because russia parked the bus and din't gave them space something which croatia can never do. No matter what you say croatia will go down as most undeserving finalist in world cup history. As for argentina, this team of 2018 was pretty weak the previous teams would have destroyed iceland and still they dominated the whole match and were unlucky to miss a penalty.

    Just look at the feats of ash's other pokemon and compare it to totodile and you will find out that it is ash's one of the weakest pokemon ever. It didn't even got to participate in the gym battle and only worthwhile win came against harrison's newly caught sneasel in johto league.
  6. Kintaro

    Kintaro Banned

    I think a problem with a lot of pokemon in the OS is most of them had no real personality/character, and were just treated as basic tools or animals. Psyduck an obvious exception. Look at Misty/Brock's teams:

    - Staryu and Starmie: Obviously cannot have any real personality as they have no facial features and didn't show any real character
    - Goldeen: Basically just a fish, lol
    - Horsea: Only got 2 eps of screentime, not really much to say about it
    - Togepi: Basically the "baby" but in a lot of eps and especially Johto it barely felt like a pokemon
    - Poliwhirl/toed: Had the most personality for a Misty pokemon after Psyduck
    - Corsola: OK I guess, but not much you can say about it besides being energetic?

    For Brock:

    - Geodude. No real personality, it showed more character in that one SM episode than it did in all 276 OS episodes
    - Onix: Again no real actual character, just roared.
    - Zubat/Golbat/Crobat: Absolutely no character at all
    - Vulpix: Not much character, just a pet. Lillie's Vulpix shows more personality than Brock's did
    - Pineco/Foretress: Exploding a lot as a Pineco than became devoid of any personality as a Foretress

    They got a bit better with Brock's pokemon in AG and DP though, where his pokemon like Ludicolo, Croagunk, Sudowoodo and Happiny actually had some personality and character.

    In the OS the writers obviously didn't care much for developing their teams or characters, kind of the same with a lot of Ash's pokemon besides the starters.
    LilligantLewis and SH65 like this.
  7. There's definitely enough time throughout the series to expand main cast's teams, we can only blame poor writing for the lower and lower number of mons the companions catch. We're getting fillers bringing nothing to the plot that could be very well used for companions team development. SM proves pokemon doesn't need much screentime to show off their personalities.
    LilligantLewis likes this.
  8. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    Yeah I mean it beats them doing the COTD and TR shtick all the time, but it does feel like they're discarding loads of golden opportunities.

    That said I think people are expecting fully fledged teams and arcs for every companion per series, and let's be fair, that's NEVER happened. OS Brock and Misty had full teams but with seldom any real substance and development to show for it. AG and DP focused solely for the female companion with Brock again barely getting any screentime, while BW and XY started using compressed teams. SM I believe exacerbated the problem by adding twice as many companions that they have few ideas for, but I think the pattern is obvious here, it's NEVER going to be consistently dynamic and rounded. There's always gonna be a handful of flat Pokemon who barely do anything but beat up Team Rocket a couple times.
  9. Kintaro

    Kintaro Banned

    I think characters generally capping off around 3-4 pokemon is fine, especially for the ones who don't battle often. Whenever a character captures new pokemon their original ones tend to be forgotten, look at how Iris' Excadrill barely did anything after she got Dragonite. There were also long stretches of DP where Dawn's Buneary and Pachirisu felt pretty much ignored, since Piplup was always in focus and they moved on to focusing on Ambipom, Mamoswine, Cyndaquil, etc. So they've never been good at balance
  10. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    I think it's a shame in SM's case because they also bothered to make the odd captures that happened have a funny chemistry with the original ones. Marowak can't quite render Turtonator obsolete because half his appeal is their bickering friendship. Same for Lycanroc and Torracat.
  11. Kintaro

    Kintaro Banned

    In retrospect the writers were smart only giving Brock 3 pokemon a time in AG and DP, they learned from the OS him having a lot of pokemon was pointless if they're not going to do anything. Even then in AG Foretress barely existed 90% of the time, seriously can you believe Foretress was on Brock's team for all 191 AG episodes? I think we saw it used like once or twice....lol
  12. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humans are tools

    Brock never had more than 4 pokemon in any series, maybe 5 for brief moment in johto but vulpix left him, so i doubt it would have matter much even if they would have given 3 pokemon, all the best pokemon development wise belonged to ash only. I don't think writers in the OS were invested in developing either companions or there pokemon. This is the problem even may faced initially her starting 2 pokemon torchic and beautifly were kinda bland as well, it wasn't until skitty and later bulbasaur that her team started to become more multi dimensional.
  13. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    That was probably the saving grace for AG/DP Brock as well, since most of his Pokemon caught in that era at least had colourful personalities compared to his bland OS lot, and so at least brought up their inactive trainer's role to comic relief.

    The SM girls struggle even in that regard because Snowy, Tsareena and Popplio don't even provide many gags compared to the other companions' Pokemon.
  14. Kintaro

    Kintaro Banned

    True, although Mudkip was more or less kinda wasted on Brock. I admit I like the idea of the 3 starters spread out among the companions, but as seen with Mudkip and Chespin, the one that goes to the male companion is just kinda wasted and doesn't do much.

    Sometimes I wonder if May should have just caught Mudkip in the wild in that ep instead of Brock. I admit that ORAS short from 2014 warmed me up to May having both Torchic and Mudkip. Like Torchic is her starter at the lab, but then captures a Mudkip in the wild.


    Of course Ash would have still gotten Corphish.
  15. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    Mudkip at least had the odd funny moment with Brock as a Marshtomp due to inheriting his casanova personality.

    Chespin similarly got a fair amount of limelight episodes in spite of mostly being stagnant.

    The problem was that previous series tended to be restrictive about what characters could have growth and importance. In particular for most of XY only the hyper serious dignified characters could be part of the main storyline and get loads of limelight while the comical ones were just bumbling comic relief. SM at least welcomes goofy qualities and foibles as being allowed to be part of the main story. If anything the SM girls struggle because they're not comical ENOUGH.
  16. pokemon fan 132

    pokemon fan 132 Well-Known Member

    To ash&charizardfan:
    Not in same capacity as original series were where primary role of Misty and Brock was to help Ash stand on his two feet catching ropes as trainer and preparing him for world. Sure both of them had their goals, issues to deal with, pokemon etc,. But at the end of the day Ash was to much higher degree center of attention than it was case in later sagas.

    To say Misty was useless character indicates your not familiar with what was her main role and merit for sagas she was in judging characters worth only by how much their own dreams were explored. Ignoring emotional growth, build up on dynamic and how much she as character along with Brock delivered to series feeling complete and vivid in OS.

    Speaking of group dynamic DP had rather shallow and straightforward dynamic for me. Brock and Dawn felt like strangers most of time, while even interactions with Ash was often too happy go lucky, cheerful and sappy taking away from diversity and middle ground within their interactions. Word family can be repeated as much as possible but if it don't have meaningful groundwork to stand on it don't mean much.

    BW dynamic was also poor, and XYZ saga will be remembered as rather monotone and sappy in terms of group chemistry barely having any color and variety in group interactions lacking that depth, variety of feelings, charm, humor, drama and tension I used to receive from AG and especially OS cast.
    Compare that to OS trio whose dialogue and interacting was natural and spontaneous not seeming forced actually growing from each other experiences, feeling like genuine team who built up such string bond that to this day they feel like having most emotional goodbye. Complimenting each other great.

    That's why theyre remembered and liked.

    Where was it confirmed that movies are not canon? Burden of proof in this case is on you because you started claim of "movies not following anime timeline and cannot be treated as canon". So i challenge that assertion with you needing concrete evidence to prove that movies indeed are not canon.
    Also for record all examples i cited and posted supporting theory of movies being canon was not dub added happening in original Japanese version as well.

    But because we have limited info of trainers Misty fought against we cannot categorize them as neither weak, strong or even decent. But what we can extract from battle Misty had vs her was that Misty trained her Staryu well with canon supporting that through dialogue from other characters. Who complimented Staryu to be strong and in heathy condition.
    And for what is worth for any pokemon to be able to knock down someone like Tentacruel with simple swift deserves some credit because it revealed that Misty pokemon possess formidable strength. But resilience as well as third movie and battle vs Mantine demonstrated, which was showed many times afterwards when battling TR, pulling raft loaded with people by itself, breaking mechas with ease being highly dexterous pokemon.

    Feat from third movie itself matching mirage pokemon in strength and resilience compared to Brock much easier defeat is enough to label it as formidable pokemon.

    As for Chikorita loss in first gym is not proper indication of her full strength. For first Falkner was strong gym leader forcing Ash to use best he had at that time to get past him. Second Ash commanded Chikorita doing mistakes in battling Hoot Hoot and as grass type she was in big disadvantage.
    Not battling with same flare as she used to vs Ash Charizard to who she delivered serious problems. Same Charizard who defeated powerful Pidgeot from Falkner while were at it.

    Pokémon strength cannot be measured by one isolated battle out there, but by looking at picture as whole and all noteworthy moments that pokemon had.

    Speaking of battling capacity, that's irrelevant to discussion. You started claim that Misty had least trainer battles out of all girls so far, i countered that with examples from OS proving how that was not the case. Whether you consider opponents Misty battled relevant or not has nothing to do with quantity of battles Misty indeed had while she was in main cast.

    Same applies to Iris, whether she had "more important battles or not" is of no freklevance in here, at end of the day she had less battles and activity than Misty had in Kanto, Orange islands and Johto combined.

    Everything else is debatable. Better pokemon? That's subjective, i found Psyduck to be much funnier and rich in personality than most of Iris pokemon, Staryu to be stronger and appealing due to devotion and dog fight tactics it demonstrated. Poliwhirl to be cool for having issues to deal with growing in respectable powerhouse etc.
    More important battles? Again subjective, most trainer battles Misty had served purpose either to help her learn from her mistakes becoming more aware of her limits, to help push her trainer career or to get over her hardships like lack of self esteem imposed on her by others.

    Not having rival does not tell us anything, Because for someone to be likable and admiring making you feel invested into he or she dies not need rivals. Rivals may help enrich someone story proving additional source of conflict but they're not obligatory to have meaningful character and story.

    Ash quest in AG saga best proved that not needing rivals.

    Speaking of inferiority complex.
    You can be stronger than someone, but there exists situation of people not being aware of their strength and quality. Due to all belittling, underestimating Misty received from her siblings and environment, constantly imposing picture on her of being less worthy from childhood lacking parental care and love, its no surprise why Misty indeed started forming such picture of herself since she never received support and approval from others, leading toward her toughening up and developing tough shell on outside to hide her fears not wanting to be perceived by others as weak and pointless.

    It was actually pretty realistic problem which mirrors real life situations followed by what i consider interesting development., In way Misty shell started to crack over tine opening up herself, starting to recognize comfort and understanding in her friends leading toward her becoming better person.

    Once again just because you consider every episode Misty was center of attention as "pointless filler" aside from Whirl Cup dies not make it correct. Because those "fillers"(for record they're not)were episodes exploring on Misty past, addressing her flaws , evolving her pokemon and letting viewers learn more about her plot.

    This fandom for some odd reason don't recognize emotional growth Misty got measuring development solely by how much her water master goal was fleshed out. But Misty HAD lot of character development, personality development no one sadly sees.

    I blame that for her focus episodes and episodes where she shared focus often went unnoticed or were individual not being structured as big development arcs. But that doesn't mean development and her achievements were nonexistent.

    Problem is with Misty things often weren't straightforward and right in your face. Her development was more gradual happening due to line of various events, issues she faced against and circumstances leaving effect on character.

    Along with sometime experiencing direct change through episodes like overcoming Gyarados fear, learning to understand better water pokemon like Marill when saving its life or sharing her own tragic past and childhood with Ash and Brock revealing how underneath rough surface and tough attitude is hiding insecure girl, full of fears and desire to be noticed and acknowledged for her qualities.

    Important thing is how with time through individual episodes where she struggled, had selfdoubts and diving in her own thoughts and fear being showed changes happening within her and what caused her to become person she was and is today. Subtly but notably starting to mature and evolve in personality and emotional aspect, along with her skills as trainer.

    Making you appreciate all that more those moments of introspection of Misty psyche, inner thoughts and dilemmas and trying to find way ho to overcome them.
    With viewer having to think for a moment and look for clues to be able form all pieces of puzzle and how this affected Misty growth in emotional sense on larger scale as time went on.

    Because in second half of Johto fruits of that gradual evolution in her character became only visible more and more. And yes in Master Quest Misty received ton of focus and was well handled receiving lot of chance to shine in episodes outside of Whirl Islands arc.

    And i feel Misty was able to shine regardless of how much focus her dreams received, because often she through her string presence and charisma overshadowed other characters making her stand out in numerous episodes which weren't even directed toward her, In solving problems through her intelligence, delivering lot of humor, temper, endearing mischief outbursts and strong competitive fire smoldering inside her being at times like rival in friendly aspect to Ash. Along with many races and tournaments she entered(which wasn't just Whirl Cup).

    As for friendship with Ash and independence other girls are irrelevant for this discussion, because were discussing whether Misty became more independent or not aka receiving development, as well whether she built on dynamic with Ash or not. In both cases answer is yes she did.

    Same goes for recklessness. You argued Misty did not grew from interactions with Psyduck along with her pokemon going through growth. I countered that with clear examples of Misty over time changing her mind risking life to protect it refuting your point.
    Im not even gonna bother answering that, just because I defend Misty and OS does not mean i don't appreciate and like other sagas. Let alone that i haven't watched them.

    For record AG generation along with OS are this day my favorite eras of pokemon. As well appreciating growth and achievements Ash scored in Kalos saga or DP generation along with Dawn as character.

    Speaking of Serena,let see for first half of series she did very little . Barely ever battled, had no real rivals which would pose a treat to her. Whole goal searching choosing performance came in rather halfbaked manner just to give her something eventually becoming pointless due to dropping it soon afterwards to become coordinator. Even romance angle was treated poorly being heavily one sided leading nowhere. Im disappointed with how she was handled deserving better.

    So no Serena as character overall was less proactive than Misty honestly who with all her flaws did not lacked in experiencing development.

    Thats not to say Serena wasn't good character and she had her fair share of moments, but her story did not lived up to potential it had.

    Speaking of coach and mentorship im afraid your deeply mistaken. Unlike other girls Misty often pointed out about type advantage, warned Ash about his opponents and what tactics they used. Motivated him and criticized when he was lazy to start training and take his quest seriously. Was direct influence in his pokemon learning new attacks in some occasions, provided moral support and encouragement to believe in himself as trainer and helped him become more humble as trainer with her sarcasm and headstrong nature toning on Ash arrogant and overconfident sude. Which was often case in OS especially early on underestimating his opponents and pretending to be better than he was.

    In that department right there Misty influenced and coached Ash to huge degree, much bigger than all other girls combined did.

    But lets support my claims with actual examples: When Ash got nervous about battling Jeanette or Mandi in league Brock and Misty gave him boost to overcome challenge. When he doubted in himself after loss at Kanto league it was Misty who raised up his spirit. Same applies to losing situation against Rudy, preventing him from losing which led to Squirtle learning new move and turning things in his favor. When he got defeated against Gary, it was Misty along with Brock which stood by his side giving him encouragement and push to go forward. Same applies to loss against Whitney, at grass tournament in Johto and several other challenges where he was in losing position.

    That aside when did we see this with Dawn and Serena putting Ash on ground when he got carried away, making him understand what he did wrong? When did we saw their cheering influencing him to change strategy in middle of battle, which reflected on his pokemon and their performance?
    When did we saw them inspiring Ash in same vein that he started to change his behavior taking tips from other side?

    It was Misty who kept him on ground giving him reality check when Ash used to act impulsively when being annoyed by Gary or starting to brag how he is better trainer than he really was, learning how to be more patient and wise.
    She often mentored him along with Brock about type weakness and what kind of approach he should tale toward certain pokemon with certain rivalry which was present between them invoking in Ash desire to try harder which later reflected on his battling style.

    Unlike them, Brock and Misty directly influenced flow of battle forcing Ash to change strategy, served as prelude which led to his pokemon learning new moves, came up with tactics which allowed him to surpass opponents against who he would've lost otherwise etc.
    That's not even debatable, with Misty as coach and mentor playing big part in Ash early days in becoming better person and trainer. With of course Brock and his undoubtfully big influence as well.

    I noticed your often calling on what Shudo said, but your doing logical fallacy in here better known as "Appeal to authority!". Because those in high positions working on some show or anywhere else are not always right having best ideas and public duty is to challenge and question their decisions having their own opinion.
    Fact that Shudo himself got in disagreements with producers and writers shows how not everyone shared same views on pokemon series and characters as he did. Limiting in his freedom as head writer which was yes one of main reasons behind Johto going downhill once GS ball got dropped. Because that subplot was supposed to give Ash, Misty and Brock huge role to play regarding Celebii and whole time travel aspect.

    With series starting to recover in last Johto season Master Quest when Atsuhiro Tomioka started adding new direction in which story was supposed to go giving to Misty valuable growth and expanding on her story and dreams. Whirl islands sude quest was made under his initiative and if decision to replace Misty wasn't already brought her path and plots would surely continue to get expanded under this writer guidance.

    But regardless since Shudo and other writers didn't shared same thoughts and vision on everything, we can make educated guess how in case of Misty not everyone viewed this character as irrelevant and not worth keeping around like Shudo did.
    So no we do not know what would other writers working for pokemon say.

    And even mr. Shudo himself said how it was not his wish to replace Misty character but something had to be changed coming from those at higher positions like series directors. And as head writer he felt Misty and TR had least justification to stay and given he felt he failed to utilize female protagonist well and under influence on preferring and liking Team rocket more than any of main protagonists he choose to replace Misty.

    Bu fact that in case if romance there exists several episodes contradicting his claims of "Misty not harboring any feelings for Ash" which were written by other writers, that other writers gave Misty more importance in Johto in 5th season alongside Shudo himself admitting how Misty had potential to be done much more regretting his mistakes serves as solid indication how Takeshi Shudo words should be taken with grain of salt.
    That applies to Shudo claim of "Misty lacking charm as girl" as well because huge popularity she scored globally alongside several books and media describing her as successful female protagonist with complex character and multidimensional personality playing pivotal role in series success. Refute such claims.

    With there not existing unanimous decision among all writing staff members for some things.

    Not really, most what happened existed in Japanese original version too interestingly enough. As for Macy case, fact that Misty heavily blushed and flustered when Macy confronted her asking if Ash was her boyfriend proves how there was more in here in play than just Misty love for water types being jealous. This applies to other incidents in Johto like when other girls commented on Ash results showing romantic interest in him with Misty being visibly disturbed, when Brock asked her for example in episode where he wanted to marry Temaku how she knows "how it feels when you love someone with feelings not being returned" being nervous trying to change subject.

    Followed by even in chronicles in episode "A Date with Delcatty!" Misty revealing to till harbor feelings for Ash when Casey asked her if there is someone else with Psyduck teasing her, admitting shy and nervous how she likes someone else refusing to go on date because of that. Pr arguably in episodes in Kanto after Ash returned home before going to Battle Frontier, Misty being visibly excited coming jut to see him.

    So in Johto that subplot was toned down but it existed followed by even in Hoenn there still being showed occasionally sign indicating toward that.
    Whether that subplot still exists or not is beside the point, point is in past it did existed, but recent interactions with Ash as well those in AG when Misty and Ash met revealed that there exists just as ever close friendship between them.

    You ask why? Because at that time they weren't even sure for how long pokemon anime will last? They didn't even know if Misty was gonna leave, because originally Misty was intended to be permanent female protagonist like other shows such as Naruto, One Piece etc had/have.
    Because back than Serena as character did not even existed and plans constantly changed. Back than they had plans for Misty(but she was replaced with there not existing decision to make her main character again), but times changed as well direction inn which anime was taken. And due to that writers had to adapt and come up with new plots and plans to keep anime going.

    Importance of character isn't measured by how much he does, but in how valuable things he provides to show are.

    Her importance lied in providing humor and colorful dynamic to cast providing identity to anime with strong presence. She was there to provide moral support to cast often helping others about issues providing them encouragement while going through some notable growth herself too. She paved way for future females to come in show and served along with Brock as Ash coach and mentor(especially in earlier seasons)helping him to grow from greenhorn to somewhat competent trainer.

    Thats your opinion, i say they were not. Regarding polls Dawn or Serena were always more popular in Japan, that's not surprise due to different mentality prevailing there regarding anime and what is considered acceptable and popular in modern times(in Japan for more than decade traditionally cute and shy girls and whole concept of girl idols is heavily popular there) . But in west its whole another story with Misty arguably being most popular female character among fans, or among most liked ones. Where independent, tough girls who like to enter "male things" are still widely accepted and liked having big following behind themselves.

    In end you are entitled to your opinion, but to me Misty was better character overall than Dawn, Serena or Iris for example delivering more to Ash growth as trainer, had more interesting backstory and past along with more unique dreams and overall more profound personality. This is of course just my opinion, not a fact. But character preferences were and always will be purely subjective.

    On a side note:
    At this point your just repeating yourself, needless to say using double standards.
    Justifying Spain and Argentina loses and their failure on trivial and inconsequential circumstances. While every win Croatia scored degrading and pinning to "pure luck". As well ignoring how recent loss vs Spain was not indication of Croatia quality in football, since several players who were in representation in worlds were not even playing anymore, along with new ones who were supposed to fill up places of those eho left not being accustomed yet and organized. Its obvious we are not on same wavelength in here with only possiblesolution being to agree to disagree.

    As well whole debate on Misty because we obviously wont reach agreement on this. Making further discussion pointless so unless you wish to continue consider im done debating this.

    Totodile also won vs several pokemon in preliminary rounds of Whirl Cup, defeated Kingdra and contributed toward Whitney Miltank defeat in rematch.
    Totodile was underused, but that does not mean it was necessarily weakest. It simply means how lack of feats can be contributed to lack of exposure being underutilized. So there exists a difference.
  17. Jeal

    Jeal Well-Known Member

    I can't believe that you are saying that. Clearly you're using nostalgia goggles.

    1 - Serena battled little, that's true. But what's the problem? Her goal doesn't involved battles.

    2- You said that rivals were irrelevant to have meaningful character and story.

    3- She don't ''dropped her goal to become coordinator'', she will try contests to improve her performances and become Kalos Queen. And even if she had dropped her goal, what's the problem? Brock did it too, will you say that his journey was useless for that?

    4 - Contrary to what you said, Serena helped Ash in his journey. In XY005, her words recovered his determination to continue the training. In XY006, thanks to her, Ash was able to avoid the effect of Sleep Powder in Pikcahu and got his first badge. In XY044, she helped Ash to follow his own way of battling, which allowed Ash to get his third badge. In XY&Z028, Ash got rid of his depression thanks to her.

    Serena had 22 episodes focused on her. To say that Misty did more than Serena is absurd.

    You sounds a little hypocrite, defending Misty's character issues and so critizing the same issues in other characters.
  18. While we're on the subject of OS (Kanto specifically), it's worth remembering that it was originally 80 episodes long. That presented a challenge to the writing staff, since they had 151 Pokemon to show off, on top of anything else they planned for the series. It inevitably meant that some Pokemon would never get the chance to have their personalities expanded or do anything meaningful in the show.

    It's a different story these days, since the show now runs long enough to almost give every new Pokemon its own episode. But back then, there were times where episodes had to be crafted around more than one Pokemon, which, at the same time, was another episode they couldn't spend on the main cast Pokemon.

    There are all sorts of little challenges involved with this. For example, why didn't we see more of Misty's Horsea? Because Horsea is a water-based Pokemon that can only swim, and the twerps weren't always going to near a convenient body of water. Why do the cast generally not catch the large Pokemon anymore? Because not every locale is big enough to accommodate a large Pokemon.

    It's a constant balance between what suits the character (their arc, personality, competence, etc.) and how practical it is to have it on screen (the complexity of the design, its size, characteristics, the locale, etc.).
  19. ash&charizardfan

    ash&charizardfan Humans are tools

    Oh great here we go with your blind misty love so i wont waste my time to point out since you just dont seem to get that and thus i will keep it short, she was the least relevant pokegirl ever to come up in the show not only that she got the least focus on her goal ans well as most of her pokemon were either bland with no character trait or got less character development when compared to other pokegirls and there pokemon, not only that misty focus episodes were mostly fillers which has less development and plot progression and more filler purpose, not to mention none of her episodes were really that impactfull unlike with other pokegirlswhose focussed episodes were considered some of the best episodes of there series. She maybe the first pokegirl but other pokegirls like may, dawn, serena and lillie left more impact on there series and were better handled than misty were whom writers were not bothered with.

    Lol its even universally accepted that misty in johto region was totally toned down and was in background for most of the times and yet you are still living in bubble that she was very active even the diehard misty fanboys accept that she was very poorly handled there, casey was a much better character than her.
    Misty wasn't ever coach to ash, lol coach is the guy that have proper knowledge of the situation misty used to be clueless many times, she even didn't know what mean look was, brock was the actual coach. As for advising ash to train and work hard that wasn't coaching but more of a firend's advice, of course misty played a part in ash as a trainer since he was a rookie but ash grew as a trainer due to his perseverance and hard work and passion not any other character.
    You can dismiss shudo's idea all you want but still cannot dismiss what he said was true, and we are not talking about the potential here we are talking about actual product we got and that was what he meant when he said that he was sorry for not developing misty but she had to be replaced because she was the least relevant character in johto.

    The romance arc may be the idea in OI but it was given backseat and slow death in johto and non existant in after series and when did they even interacted afterwards i think misty had better interaction with tracey, max and lana than with ash, i think the only moment of interaction was when they were battling, and you are right they have good friendship and less than lovers. I bet even in her upcoming cameo she wont interact much with ash. I recommend you to go to main anime website and look which ash shipping they are promoting. Even in misty's character profile there hasn't been a single mention of her love life. Besides many of there moments were overhyped by fans like with macy which was turned int water type vs fire type bickering. This ship has been dead for 16 years.

    Regarding serena you are clueless, she was based on realistic human who had no goal in life and started on her journey just to find her own path and had own summer camp arc dedicated to her for that, how was that halfbacked she got to see performance in real before making her decision. It was same with may as well. It was written fine. An arc dedicated to companion is always necessary because this anime is mainly focussed on ash's journey so that means comapnions will often get relegated that's why characters who had there own arc and goals like dawn, serena, may and lillie gained more character development than comapnions like misty, brock, clemont and cilan.

    The popularity poll was in 2013 and still may was close second to dawn, and no japan not only votes based on candygirl but also the character growth throughout the series, as well as the the real life experience. You can say that they have better choice than west on how to pick a character. That is the reason why they choose characters like lelouch and light yagami over shonen heroes like naruto and ichigo.

    Misty was already an independent character from the start unlike other pokegirls due to which she lacked progression, misty definitely developed with time but her overall development was less when compared to other pokegirls like may, dawn, serena, iris and lillie. As for battling she battled awefully less for being in over 280 episodes, I wont count TR battles since they were pushovers anyways and didn't contribute with characters progression and development, iris on the other hand had t battle regularly with her rival georgia and her opelucid gym arc was better handled than any of misty's episodes. And yeah misty's backstory was never revealed in anime except she grew up with her sisters and had silly and stupid inferiority complex with her sisters who were already worthless. So no backstory wasn't any impactfull, it was jessie and james who had sad backstory, you are confusng with shudo's novel.

    Its persoanl preference on which character you like but i think later pokegirls were better handled than misty was and i think most people will agree on that.

    As for croatia, they were superlucky you are delusional not to admit that, no spain, germany, brazil or argentina on there way to final is nothing but a lottery which has never happened. Spain when they beat croatia also were missing some important players who had retired so it wasn't croatia who were missing players. Besides there main player modric was still playing and he was totally worthless and some people say he deserves ballon d'or. In euros 2016 also croatia were beaten by the good side they faced in portugal, same way had any good side would have smashed croatia in world cup 18 as well. Croatia simply aren't big team yet and i doubt it will ever be in big leagues ever.

    And all the other pokemon ash had won more battles than him or had beaten even more strong pokemon that totodile has beaten, it is not weak it could beat many af ash's companions pokemon but when compared to ash's other pokemon it will be counted among the lowest rated pokemon underutilized or not.

    I think you are talking to guy who is living in a bubble where he thinks OS is the best series. I was thrashed few days back for mentioning the word genwunner but this guy fits the perfect bill of that term. He deems rivals as irrelevant because misty is the only active pokegirl to not have her own rival. He said dawn looked like a stranger to ash when in reality dawn and ash had by far the best companion chemistry of all the anime. I think DP group despite all the hate there pokemon shared most comradie with themselves, i mean ash was able to instruct dawn's and brock's pokemon when they weren't around and vice versa with others, that hadn't happened in earlier series.

    Most funny thing is he said that misty had more personal development than dawn of all people. Its evident he hasn't watched either DP or XY series.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
  20. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    I guess it really depends on substance and how entertaining the Pokemon was used when it WAS onscreen.

    Battle time varies because TONS of battles in the show are just curb stomps with not much display of ability and tactics. It's hard to really rate by Team Rocket and other bad guy battles for example because most of the time they are just one sided beatings where the twerps rarely have to exceed their effort past calling for their Pokemon's signature attack once or twice. Most of the rare challenging battles by a bad guy use plot armour to resolve things rather than the twerps' competence. There are plenty other official battles in the show that are also underdeveloped or conveniently called off before they require too much intuitiveness. Usually it's just Ash's rival/league journey battles they submit have to be played fully and satisfyingly at all times because they are related to his actual goals and personal accomplishment quota.

    Besides that not every Pokemon is defined just by battling. Hell some of the best battlers in the show are downright boring as characters and contribute little else. I think people are more willing to rate Totodile since despite his more limited battle run (with divisive opinions whether the ones he DID do were good) he was likeable enough as a character and played a decent role as comic relief, keeping him something of an ongoing presence in the anime. The same can be said for some other Pokemon such as Rowlet or Marowak, who do the job okay when it's called for but otherwise can keep some sort of role as a comical character or assistant. Compare to say, most of the regional birds, who battle okay, but are rarely seen otherwise and thus have fairly undeveloped personalities and importance as characters.

    I think he means that Misty, in spite of not really having much goal focus, had more introspective and complicated traits in terms of standalone personality, which is arguably where things get more even. Not to say Dawn wasn't complex, but people usually credit her for her goal arc primarily, and her actual personality involvement tends to be targetted as her downsides more often (eg. rarely interacting with Brock, being stuck in several stale fillers, being a bit stagnant in terms of characterisation). BW did experiment with this aspect more however, since obviously without contest focus in Unova, Dawn and her team were there merely for character and interaction appeal.

    Notice the divisiveness with certain versions of Ash as well. Some claim XY Ash's goal focus was done brilliantly up until the inevitable loss, but in terms of personality he was a robot with a programmed designation. SM Ash in contrast is often criticised for not being motivated enough and lacking enough goal focus, but is considered much more colourful and emotive and can drive more limelight just through personality alone.

    Not every character needs a big goal/occupation arc to be a developed character, it helps a lot at times and keeps them proactive but it's only one way to make them count. Kiawe, Lillie and even Sophocles don't have any ongoing tournaments or contests for example, but a lot of their limelight gives good introspective to them and they play supporting roles well enough. Where the likes of Brock and Mallow are criticised is for not maintaining an entertaining presence either in terms of goal OR personality focus.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018

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