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Companion Pokémon: Downfall?

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
I remember even the showcase training usually consisting of a battle or TR jobbing. People are split around the quality of the actual showcases themselves, but that only proves Serena was goal centric and couldn't really hold an episode on her own without it (hence her mostly being in the background early on, when the showcases weren't around and even Team Rocket weren't easy plot devices/jobbers yet). Like Ash who had some awesome rival/league focus in the XY series but was otherwise a pretty bland stock hero character.
I'm not debating with you regarding the writing quality or how many times she battled TR jobbers. I'm debating whether or not she was meant to be a battling-centric character, and she wasn't, that's all I'm saying. If she were meant to be a battling-centric character, they would have given her a battling goal. I'm not sure how you don't get that.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I'm not debating with you regarding the writing quality or how many times she battled TR jobbers. I'm debating whether or not she was meant to be a battling-centric character, and she wasn't, that's all I'm saying. If she were meant to be a battling-centric character, they would have given her a battling goal. I'm not sure how you don't get that.

Because they kept making her do it anyway and even trying to make her look good in a spurious way. It's not like say, SM Ash who goes through multiple pastimes and fails miserably at them before discarding them, making it obvious they're not his thing compared to what he IS good at. It maybe wasn't Serena's main focus, but it made up an absurd amount of padding and fake heat for her screen time, ironic for a character trying to decide her true niche.

Compare to say Sophocles, who also isn't a battler, but guess what, barely battles at all and instead of focuses on his characterisation and what he IS good at for most of his limelight.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
Because they kept making her do it anyway and even trying to make her look good in a spurious way. It's not like say, SM Ash who goes through multiple pastimes and fails miserably at them before discarding them, making it obvious they're not his thing compared to what he IS good at. It maybe wasn't Serena's main focus, but it made up an absurd amount of padding and fake heat for her screen time.

Compare to say Sophocles, who also isn't a battler, but guess what, barely battles at all and instead of focuses on his characterisation and what he IS good at for most of his limelight.
Dude, the writing in XY was bad, sure, but it doesn't mean that she was meant to be a battling-centric character.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
I'm just saying they forced it in as much as they could, regardless if it wasn't her primary goal.
that's because that's all the XY writers did, it doesn't mean they were implying she was battling-centric
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
It's a quick fix for whenever they can't find anything for a character to do on their own. They have them in half assed battles and it make it look like they're good at it in a half assed way, usually by giving them perpetual jobbers like Team Rocket or avoiding ever finishing battles they would lose. Mallow suffers the same problem despite having her own proper employment, they can't think of an interesting way to make her stand out so they just give her weaklings to beat up to hide how unremarkable she is every time she's on centre stage.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
It's a quick fix for whenever they can't find anything for a character to do on their own. They have them in half assed battles and it make it look like they're good at it in a half assed way, usually by giving them perpetual jobbers like Team Rocket or avoiding ever finishing battles they would lose. Mallow suffers the same problem despite having her own proper employment, they can't think of an interesting way to make her stand out so they just give her weaklings to beat up to hide how unremarkable she is every time she's on centre stage.
Okay? We're talking about totally different things at this point dude. Serena was NOT meant to be a battling-centric character dude END OF DISCUSSION
 

pokemon fan 132

Well-Known Member
I can't believe that you are saying that. Clearly you're using nostalgia goggles.

Its not about nostalgia in here, but getting certain misinterpretations and false facts straight. It wasn't my choice to get involved in this debate, but since my own views were challenged I decided to defend them.

1 - Serena battled little, that's true. But what's the problem? Her goal doesn't involved battles.

2- You said that rivals were irrelevant to have meaningful character and story.

3- She don't ''dropped her goal to become coordinator'', she will try contests to improve her performances and become Kalos Queen. And even if she had dropped her goal, what's the problem? Brock did it too, will you say that his journey was useless for that?

4 - Contrary to what you said, Serena helped Ash in his journey. In XY005, her words recovered his determination to continue the training. In XY006, thanks to her, Ash was able to avoid the effect of Sleep Powder in Pikcahu and got his first badge. In XY044, she helped Ash to follow his own way of battling, which allowed Ash to get his third badge. In XY&Z028, Ash got rid of his depression thanks to her.

Serena had 22 episodes focused on her. To say that Misty did more than Serena is absurd.

Theres nothing wring with that but when someone says Serena battled more than Misty try to prove his/her point on fallacious statements than I feel obligation to point out why that isn't true at all.

Please don't twist my words, I didn't said they're irrelevant but that they're not needed for that because its true. Rivals true may provide additional source of conflict and challenge to help fictional character struggle and work for his/her goal.

But are they necessary to have character who went through profound character development? Who still faced hardships and turmoil from other sources of conflict like problematic past, lack of trust in others having to overcome barriers to bond with friends and others or to experience trials imposing doubt on character whether he/she has what it takes to succeed?

Answer is no, because even without rivals you can have likable characters and make enough intriguing story around them in any fictional story including pokemon.

So to use lack of permanent rivals in someone case as "proof" of being "bad character" is in itself poor argument as far as im concerned.

Honestly it never sat well for me how fast she gave up on it. Based on her dialogue and decision there's nothing indicating her choice to0 become coordinator is stepping stoner to become better performer. That's fans interpretation bit we don't have proof that that's really Serena agenda.

And if she really changed her goal, to see someone who went through soul searching herself for so long being indecisive about what she wants to do in life. Working hard and finally starting to gain grip of what are prerequisites to become successful entertainer. Just to see it so easy renounce and start wandering for something else paints picture of whole development happening in vacuum of pokemon showcases being pointless in retrospective with lack of build up toward goal change happening on a whim. Leaving for me bad taste in mouth because it was plain poor writing and byproduct of writers lack of imagination how to write Serena character out.

I never said she didn't helped, but to say Serena was more integral and influencing on Ash growth as pokemon trainer than Misty was would be big understatement.


When taking in account whole Kanto, Orange Islands, Johto and afterwards specials and cameos that's really not true. Aside from episodes directly focusing on her Misty also often had episodes where she shared focus with someone else(like Ash, Brock etc) dealing with her issues, pokemon, goal and aspirations.

So no Misty was not less active than Serena was. She didn't advanced her career of water master much, but she compensated for that through often playing role of intermediator in quarrels in taking initiative to solve puzzles and riddles created by others like Blaine., To help stop wild pokemon like giant Tentacruel, entered competitions not necessarily related to her dream like races, added lot of humor and life to group dynamic. Helped Brock and others with their love problems, came up with plans how to catch wild pokemon or stop villains plans etc.In much bigger capacity than Serena honestly did.

You sounds a little hypocrite, defending Misty's character issues and so critizing the same issues in other characters.

Im not defending anyones issues.
I am willing to admit Misty goal was handled poor, just like most of her pokemon were leaving in rushed and poorly planned way pokemon anime.

But im also willing to give her character credit where credit is due not being handled poor in every aspect. Question is are people willing to do same for others like Serena, Dawn etc? Instead of acting like they're flawless and superior to others like Misty, Iris, Lana etc just because they didn't had big arcs dedicated to themselves in form of contests for example?

Ignoring how character can be valuable and active without that as well.

And all the other pokemon ash had won more battles than him or had beaten even more strong pokemon that totodile has beaten, it is not weak it could beat many af ash's companions pokemon but when compared to ash's other pokemon it will be counted among the lowest rated pokemon underutilized or not.

They won more battles and faced more trainers because ill repeat once again they had luck to be used more often therefore giving them chance to shine more under the sun. AS well remaining relevant in generations after Johto, something poor Totodile didn't had along with Kingler, Muk etc.
That doesn't make them wreak because not having much battles on their side means we cannot properly assess how powerful they really are.

And now for other part:
Universally accepted by who? Pokemon fandom has millions of fans worldwide, few vocal voices do not speak in name of everyone.
In Kanto, OI and Master Quest she was indeed active (in fact in master Quest her goal of water master and pokemon team were better handled than in rest of OS and Misty felt more active again in characterization as well, so its unfair to generalize whole Johto as bad). Just because you don't see that doesn't make it incorrect.

She may have not been knowledgeable as Brock was, but at end of the day she still warned Ash about type advantages, suggested to use for example water pokemon vs fire types. Pointed out Ash flaws in strategy such as blindly sticking with same idea over and over again relying on luck to pull of win.

And pushing someone to train, giving him motivational talks to not self pity himself because of one measly loss like in Kanto league. Indirectly influencing change of strategy in middle of fight like it happened with Rudy when Squirtle was losing. To criticize Ash for his arrogance and overconfidence being reason behind losing infamously, like it happened vs Skiplum boy in grass tournament with Ash ignoring Brock bond Misty advice.
To provide encouragement and anchor to rely back on through hard times when suffering defeats or facing doubts.
Is indeed clear sign of Misty being both coach and mentor to Ash in his early days, Helping him to soothe on his overconfident nature , in teaching him how to be more observant and pay attention to his pokemon needs and prepare him for dangers out there, in intervening when Ash was about to fall for TR trucks getting in their trap, when he was too gullible or just prevented biggest mistake someone can do when being carried away by success. im not understanding their limits.
Saving his life twice, being voice of reason and someone who kept in check Ash ego teaching him how to be better as person and as result of that trainer as well.

So yes while Ash through his passion and love for pokemon managed to go far, it was Brock and Misty merit to become more humble, better prepared and smarter in making decisions. Not growing as much or with equal speed through his journey from rookie to end of Os respectable and strong trainer if there wasn't for Brock and yes Misty as well on his side.

Words of one writer ill repeat do not reflect on what were everyone else opinions and feelings regarding Misty character with contradictions in canon refuting mr. Shudo claims about some things as well himself admitting there did not existed general consensus on several subjects proving that.
Just because you believe Misty was worst girl in pokemon series is at end of the day still your opinion. And while I can respect that if thats how you feel, that's not a fact.

For record im not even a shipper, never was interested in something which has no future in series like pokemon. But I like to stick to facts and Misty even in late Johto still revealed to harbor romantic affection toward Ash as incidents with Macy and departure episode undeniably showed. Same goes for chronicles and episode where Misty was asked to go on date admitting she likes someone else)educated guess would say that was Ash). Revealing how even at that time writers still weren't sure what will be future of Misty keeping her subplots alive just in case she gets revived for longer than brief visits.

As for interactions i think Misty had genuinely quality dynamic with Ash in her first Hoenn cameo and now in SM episodes. Playfully flirting, revealing to still have fire inside her being sarcastic and confident testing Ash but not in repulsive more so entertaining way keeping spirit of their old times alive, complimenting Ash in sincere manner on his skills and feeling like two close and very good friends.


If your gonna use real life examples as testament to "good and realistic" development, than you'll have to concede and admit how complex of inferiority was also realistic and good character development. Otherwise we have case of double standards.

Neither i can agree how character development is measured only through hoe big arc someone has received. Because having chain of competitions to enter on regular basis doesn't mean Dawn or Serena were active and equally contributive in all other fields and disciplines where other characters shined.

Misty and Iris were what i consider active characters too, especially when comparing them to male sidekicks in pokemon series,. Let alone females from other shounen franchise such as Dragon Ball, Yugioh, Digimon, Bakugan etc, etc.

Battling, entering tournaments, having their dreams, fears and emotional struggles through which viewer could sympathize with them. Along with getting fairly good amount of focus and various activities they were enrolled into.

In fact this 2 were probably closest to competent female trainer traveling with Ash so far(not saying May or Dawn weren't competent; far from it but were talking about trainers and they were coordinators primarily).
Lot of times when pokefandom start complaining about girls being underused in pokemon should take a look at some other anime where definition of inactive gets a whole new meaning.

Looking back I still feel Misty was able to shine regardless of how much focus her dreams received, because often she through her string presence and charisma overshadowed other characters making her stand out in numerous episodes which weren't even directed toward her, In solving problems through her intelligence, delivering lot of humor, temper, endearing mischief outbursts and strong competitive fire smoldering inside her being at times like rival in friendly aspect to Ash. Along with many races and tournaments she entered(which wasn't just Whirl Cup).

Not being pointless fillers, because those episodes often:
-dive deeper in here past and preferences(like why she loses water pokemon so much)
-gave her development helping viewers to learn new things about Misty
-contributed to Ash goal progression or displayed evolution or capture of new pokemon.


No one is having better choices, its just case of different cultures and mentality prevailing in different parts of world. While in west people like more independent females who are tough, not afraid to speak up their mind , feisty and loves to fight. In japan female heroines charm is measured through different standards and criteria Nothing more, nothing less.

No one is right or wrong in here.


In goal progression i agree, in personality development not at all. Because unlike Serena or Dawn for example whose growth primarily happened through contests or showcases with much higher prefix being out on goal progression. In Misty case importance was given more to analysis and development of her inner personality, underlying depth hiding behind that rough and abrasive mask of hers.

Like i said before problem is with Misty things often weren't straightforward and right in your face. Her development was more gradual happening due to line of various events, issues she faced against and circumstances leaving effect on character.

Along with sometime experiencing direct change through episodes like overcoming Gyarados fear, learning to understand better water pokemon like Marill when saving its life or sharing her own tragic past and childhood with Ash and Brock revealing how underneath rough surface and tough attitude is hiding insecure girl, full of fears and desire to be noticed and acknowledged for her qualities. I cannot agree her past wasn't impactful either, maybe not to anime plot itself but it held importance in shaping Misty character evidently.

Important thing is how with time through individual episodes where she struggled, had selfdoubts and diving in her own thoughts and fear being showed changes happening within her and what caused her to become person she was and is today. Subtly but notably starting to mature and evolve in personality and emotional aspect, along with her skills as trainer.

Making you appreciate all that more those moments of introspection of Misty psyche, inner thoughts and dilemmas and trying to find way ho to overcome them.
With viewer having to think for a moment and look for clues to be able form all pieces of puzzle and how this affected Misty growth in emotional sense on larger scale as time went on.

In end Misty might not have received si much exposition like May or Dawn had for example but truth to be told she didn't had to necessarily. Her curious, tomboyish nature having wide range of emotions and internal desires, conflicts which brought more complexity to character, interesting pokemon, touching and interesting backstory(Mistys childhood growing without parents neglected by older siblings was something many viewers could sympa thize about with her)) accompanied with unique dreams and aspirations of becoming water master. Dreams which brought dimension and certain mysterious quality to character in presenting different, new way to see someone grow and succed as pokemon trainer in world.

Were recipe for success and compelling, well rounded character just enough to become heavily liked and appreciated.
When people mention Misty development and why arguably she changed more than some if later girls is not coming from her pokemon team or goal, but more so way relationships with others and emotional growth of hers was constructed changing significantly.

And that's your prerogative respecting your opinion, but i cannot agree that Misty was worse handled than all girls, especially in all areas for numerous already stated reasons. In some aspects way i see it she was handled worse, but she was also handed better in some other aspects.

Croatia faced Spain , Germany or Argentina before, and guess what? They weren't always winners. As well not taking in account how small country like this which have much smaller population than for example Spain has much harder timer in finding players who could as easy fill up places and be of caliber as those who left representation.You can devalue and disparage their success all you want, at end of the day they reached finals and will be remembered in history of football as inspiring small nation. Which proved how in soccer everything is possible if ambition,, spirit between players and unity is strong enough and how big results are not reserved solely for select few big representations.

Croatia success showed how if you underestimate anyone it can easily backfire on you.

You were right though, were obviously not gonna reach common ground on this subjects.

um, I'm not sure about this. Iris was the most active battler of any girl ever if we're talking about regular battles and not contest battles, and considering how little battling Misty did in Johto, I wouldn't be surprised if I actually counted up every battle, battle by battle, that Iris may have had more.

Misty actually battled most in Johto, issue in here is that many people tend to skip Johto like plague due to having perception of 90% being "boring filklers", and as such drawing false conclusion how Misty was doing nothing except Whirl Cup.

Here is entire record of battles vs trainers or pokemon Misty had in OS:
EP07: battled Ash in gym
EP09:fought Joe and his Weepinbell from pokemon school and Giselle and her Graveler
EP10:battled Bulbasaur and Odish
EP19:battled multiple wild Tentacool and giant Tentacruel
E36:battled Tyra member from bike gang and her Cloyster
EP45:battled Jigglypuff in attempt of catching it
EP49:battled Keita and his Farfetched
EP50:battled Ash and his Bulbasaur
EP52:entered Princess tournament with Ash and Brock pokemon(before someone makes cynic remark, skill of trainer also lies in knowing how to utilize someone else pokemon properly and she did very good job there given how prior to that she mainly battld with water types) battling several girls going all the way to finals winning it.
EP93:battled water trainer Marina
EP96:battled Snorlax before Ash caught it.
EP115:battled captain Crook and his pirate gang
Ep152:battled Houndour pack
EP153:battled Ash for Totodile
EP158:tried to battle Girafarig with Psyduck
EP170:battled Andreas and Poliwrath in Seaking catching contest
EP185:battled Sakura sister Sumomo and her Vaporeon
EP206:battled Rhydon which could swim
EP215:battled Corsola catching it
EP217.battled Marcellus and his Remoraid along with trainers who had Magikarp and Shellder
EP218:entered Whir Cup battling Barriason and his Quilfish
EP219:battled Ash and later Trinity
EP220:fought diglett thief gang with her P0liwhirl
EP224:battled TR organization members in Lugia incudent
EP228:battled Sakura and her Espeon
EP237:send out Poliwhirl vs TR agents in red Gyarados crisis
EP242:fought massive wild Macargo
EP249:battled Andreas and his Poliwrath prior to her Poliwhirl evolution
EP258:battled Dorian in Coastline gym
EP267:battled Sneasel prior to Harrison catching it
EP275:battled brother trio and their Hitmontop, Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee.

Thats not even counting battles she had vs Butch and Cassidy and numerous battles she had vs Jessie, James or even Meowth occasionally. With Misty battling TR much much more than Iris honestly did and people can say what they want but TR are trainers too. maybe not the greatest ones but how capable they will be depends on situation. As those who are destined to be punching bags for protagonists they suffer loses most of time, but they also revealed through contests or tournaments at times how they can be fairly competent when writers want them to be more than joke of plot.

So do tell me did Iris fought in reality more? I doubt.

DP133

XY5-6, XY44

XY&Z28

DP095,102,132,186-88.

Your missing the point. Occasionally we saw few of this things that with other girls but Serena or Dawn never really instructed Ash in way coach or mentor would do making him change his approach toward pokemon battling and perceiving other trainers in different way like Misty and Brock did.At that point Ash was already veteran and experienced trainer who did not needed coach or mentor on his side. During time Misty was on cast Ash was much more impulsive, reckless, brash and overconfident heavily with Misty doing all of that much more frequently and consistently compared to likes of Dawn or Serena. Aside from pointing out his flaws or cheering, Misty also pushed Ash to train his pokemon, criticized him for slacking around, gave him motivational talks when losing hard or doubting in himself. Warned him about flaws in his strategy prior to battling others or about type advantages suggesting different pokemon to choose. Teaching him basics. She through her competitive spirit incited some sort of friendly rivalry going between them serving as way to motivate Ash to take training seriously giving his best, kept him under control when getting carried away not letting fame hits him in head and pointed out how his ego and overconfidence are preventing him from becoming better trainer learning on mistakes which eventually happened.


Explained above.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
@pokemon fan 132 I'm sorry but Dawn had the largest impact on Ash's battle style of any girl (countershield) and if you don't think so that's a joke. We're done here
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Thats not even counting battles she had vs Butch and Cassidy and numerous battles she had vs Jessie, James or even Meowth occasionally. With Misty battling TR much much more than Iris honestly did and people can say what they want but TR are trainers too. maybe not the greatest ones but how capable they will be depends on situation. As those who are destined to be punching bags for protagonists they suffer loses most of time, but they also revealed through contests or tournaments at times how they can be fairly competent when writers want them to be more than joke of plot.

The main reason TR battles are often undermined is because they don't even remotely test the heroes or even force some real display of competence. They call a couple generic attacks and usually that's enough to beat them. Ironically most of the odd times TR actually resist and offer a good fight, the twerps rarely overcome it, it's just to signal a stronger character coming in to save the day, or one of the Pokemon getting pressured enough to get a power boost. Serena and Mallow have utterly trashed TR but fans still don't consider it much of an impression on their battle skills because any battler could trash an opponent that doesn't really fight back. It's the 'straw loser' effect, making a character look less unremarkable by pitting them against someone even worse, and the anime tends to rely on this A LOT, besides as basic padding of course.

I think some credit the BW team more for their TR battles because that was about the one series they actually bothered with the TR battles. Some of them were ACTUAL FIGHTS where both sides had to pull out impressive moves, rather than 'twerps crush TR' or 'TR crushes twerps until DEM save at the last second'. In other words, TR actually managed to land hits and counter the twerps, but the twerps just upped their game and still won despite struggling a bit more, meaning more legit displays of competence through actual resilience, defence, and improvising from an unexpected challenge.

In that sense, even if Iris fought TR less than the others, it amounted to more than a hundred billion generic curb stomps that the others often dolled out. And if she didn't fight TR as much, well that just means more times they focused on something more relevant for her. Granted one could argue that BW focusing on the quality of TR had effect on the official battles, which is maybe why the other series keep their priorities to them (I don't think any series has managed to churn out loads and loads of well choreographed battles, something always had the take the fall).

Basically I tend to rate the importance of a battle by substance, if the opponent actually forced some good level of ability out of the protagonist, that battle means more than a billion curb stomps where they weren't remotely challenged. The problem is I don't remember THAT many battles with Misty where she wasn't either beating up a jobber with basic attacks or being jobbed herself (Psyduck battles don't count), at least not until her tenure was nearly over.
 
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ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
@pokemon fan 132 Since we are going full circles here since you are being a blind hypocrite and i am not going to repeat it again dawn had more impact on ash's battling style than any other girl, they didn't interacted much in hoenn she interacted more with max and tracey during her hoenn cameos, The shipping plot is dead, TR battles are considered irrelevant, having an arc is good for character development as seen with later girls, if you look at her pokemon team and how they were handled and her goal progression then yes misty was the worst handled pokegirl in the show, misty was no coach of ash he was just a rookie at that time compared to later gens, having an inferiority complex is fine but people have that complex on those who are actually very good and not losers and weakling then it becomes stupid just like with misty's sisters case and lastly croatia is absolute above average team who undeservedly reached the finals roding there luck beating weak teams that's hardly any inspiring story, lets see how they even qualify for there next euros and last thing population excuse is non sense uruguay has very population also but they are 2 time world chamipons as well as having much better culture. Netherlands is also a small country and have
one of the best footballing culture and have some of the best footballers and tactics, that's what we call inspiring
Yes it has been pretty common and most of people even admit it that misty was pretty underwhelming and background character throughout johto, just because you are blind in your misty fanboyism to not gonna admit it doesn't mean anything.

Totodile is considered ash's weakest pokemon because not only it got less battles but the opponents it won were also nothing special. Other pokemon like kingler battles less but defeated strong opponents in the leagues, whereas some like muk and torkoal won less but performed vey well against strong opponents like registeel and gary. Its basic common sense to say that.

As for serena's goal, it was stated that she had gone for her performers training to hoenn and could visit different regions, so yes participating in contests were a stepping stone in her development. Having rivals are very important to a characters development whether in pokemon or other anime, rivals like paul, gary, drew and zoey have played big parts in MC progression. As for ash's journey, misty was more lucky to be with rookie level ash otherwise who liked to goof up and didn't train otherwise she wouldn't even advice him, she didn't have any role in ash's gym battles like dawn and serena. Also the main reason for ash's growth was he himself. Lastly, if you are going to only mention 5-6 incidents of her stay then that is very pathetic amount for someone who stayedfor about 280 episodes, the rest of the girls were far more active even in short amount of time than her.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I think a large point of contention with Misty is that despite regularly calling out Ash on his dysfunctions and lack of training, she didn't really do much to improve her own team and goals, at least not until she was nearly leaving or more annoyingly HAD LEFT and done it offscreen like in the case of Psyduck, which felt a bit like the writers cheating.

Her Psyduck is incompetent, she considers getting rid of it until it proves OP by accident, she can't train Togepi, she threatens Ash in response to him giving her one of her own lectures. Gyarados was one of the first times she actively faced one of her own shortcomings as a trainer rather than everything just conveniently coming together for her, which was after she'd left the show.

It was the aforementioned problem that she relied more on leeching off of another more incompetent looking character to make her look good by relation over her own qualities and actions. It was only when Ash stopped acting like a rookie that they submitted that Misty needed to actually do some noteworthy training herself because she'd become redundant against him.

I think the later girls go back and forth on this, since while they do sometimes get more developed goal and training focus, they do still sometimes rely on it being superficial, relying even more on old tricks like plot armour and straw losers like Team Rocket, and the story sugarcoating and being far less willing to pick apart their flaws and weaknesses as a trainer as a result of it (compared to Misty who they were at least occasionally willing to portray as being full of hot air, just it took ages for them to do anything about it).
 
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Kintaro

Banned
I think the only reason people thought Misty was a competent battler is because people kept comparing her to early Kanto Ash, and Misty came across as having slightly more experience. But Misty was clearly a beginning trainer, she didn't have a backstory like Iris did where Iris won 100 battles before even traveling with Ash. And then when Ash pretty much beat her as early as the 7th episode, (and this is without using Pikachu and before he got the Kanto starters even), it made it obvious.

Also I honestly wonder if Starmie was even Misty's pokemon. Staryu seems to be her starter and she likely caught Goldeen not to long after, but it seemed like her Starmie was just kinda...there? Like she had no attachment to it like her Staryu, I honestly wonder if it was from her sisters or something.
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
I think the only reason people thought Misty was a competent battler is because people kept comparing her to early Kanto Ash, and Misty came across as having slightly more experience. But Misty was clearly a beginning trainer, she didn't have a backstory like Iris did where Iris won 100 battles before even traveling with Ash. And then when Ash pretty much beat her as early as the 7th episode, (and this is without using Pikachu and before he got the Kanto starters even), it made it obvious.

Also I honestly wonder if Starmie was even Misty's pokemon. Staryu seems to be her starter and she likely caught Goldeen not to long after, but it seemed like her Starmie was just kinda...there? Like she had no attachment to it like her Staryu, I honestly wonder if it was from her sisters or something.
To be fair, that battle was interrupted by you know who and Misty's sisters ended up just giving Ash the badge so I wouldn't consider that a defeat.

I wish they focused more on her original Pokemon though.
 

Kintaro

Banned
To be fair, that battle was interrupted by you know who and Misty's sisters ended up just giving Ash the badge so I wouldn't consider that a defeat.

I wish they focused more on her original Pokemon though.

Even before TR interrupted her Starmie was on the verge of fainting, you can see with the gem on it flashing when it was against the wall. And again this is using Pidgeotto and Butterfree of all things, two pokemon with barely any battle experience....remember this was only the 7th episode of the entire series.

If Ash had used Pikachu or had Bulbasaur at the time, Misty probably would have lost a lot easier.
 

ash&charizardfan

Humans are tools
To be fair, that battle was interrupted by you know who and Misty's sisters ended up just giving Ash the badge so I wouldn't consider that a defeat.

I wish they focused more on her original Pokemon though.

Let's not forget that pikachu refused to fight for some stupid reason, otherwise he could have alone soloed both star yu and star mi by itself, even her eldest sister mentioned that ash could have easily won if he had used pikachu from the start.
 

Jeal

Well-Known Member
Even before TR interrupted her Starmie was on the verge of fainting, you can see with the gem on it flashing when it was against the wall. And again this is using Pidgeotto and Butterfree of all things, two pokemon with barely any battle experience....remember this was only the 7th episode of the entire series.

If Ash had used Pikachu or had Bulbasaur at the time, Misty probably would have lost a lot easier.
Yeah, it's obvious who would win the battle. If Ash had used Pikachu, Misty would be defeated in 2 minutes.
 
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