• Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

Competitive Balance: Yes or No?

Should Game Freak try and make the games more "balanced"?

  • Yes

    Votes: 21 39.6%
  • No

    Votes: 32 60.4%

  • Total voters
    53

Saurior

Solar Powered
Look at Farfetch'd for example, it's both pathetic and not used often, which is why it needs an evolution.
But if an evolution of Farfetch'd is used, Farfetch'd itself is still NU... or even worse, it'll be dropped to the NFE tier... bad news if Farfetch'd is your favourite, right? (I loved Rhydon, but now it's NFE due to Rhyperior...)..... but then AGAIN, that shouldn't stop you from using Farfetch'd, for:

Yes some pokemon seem much more weaker than others but with the right stratagies and party usage any pokemon can shine at the end.
 
Last edited:

Dattebayo

Banned
But if an evolution of Farfetch'd is used, Farfetch'd itself is still NU... or even worse, it'll be dropped to the NFE tier... bad news if Farfetch'd is your favourite, right?

Not unless the evo made you love Farfetch'd even more because he's now useful.

(I loved Rhydon, but now it's NFE due to Rhyperior...)

It's the only way to prevent Rhydon from potentially being NU even it still ends up in UU like its evo.
 

Quantice

*insert phrase here*
Seriously, being in NU doesn't mean that it's pathetic. It just means that nobody uses it that often.

Ditto, Unown, and Mawile.

I don't see them doing much and they're pretty pathetic. Hell, Unown's page is a joke.

Still, I like Mawile and Unown. They're pretty cool.
 

GreenDay4ever

bye!, i had a blast
its impossible to make everyone happy... if you'd upgrade mawile into some major awesome pokemon then there would always be 1 or (more likely) more pokemon who would be downgraded... and if you honestly think that your favourites should be the best and screw the others then you are really selfcentered... no one is stopping you from using NU's in OU... infact... you dont even have to use smogons tier system... i mean who are they to tell you how to play pokemon? they dont own it or anything... there are a whole lot of other methods of battling competetively other than the typical uber,ou,uu & nu... you could do mixed tier, monocolor, monotype... hell you could even make your own ****ed up rules like no stab or no items or whatever you want...

also, some pokemons were never supposed to be used in competetive battles anyway... do you think gamefreak made unown because they thought he would become the center of the metagame with his massive power? of course not, unown itself is just a novelty pokemon...

oh and wtf are you talking about when you say nobody plays NU... almost everyone that has spent atleast a decent amount of time on shoddy has a NU team... I usually favor NU instead of OU, UU and uber. And its not because my favourites are in NU or something, but its because i like variety... unlike in OU where everyone's team is pretty much the same... and even then you can take advantage of that by surprising your opponement by using an original idea for an uncommon pokemon...
 

Saurior

Solar Powered
Not unless the evo made you love Farfetch'd even more because he's now useful.
The point I was trying to make was, that if an Farfetch'd evo would become useful, that still means that Farfetch'd ITSELF isn't... if Farfetch'd is your favourite, you then still wound't use it, but it's evo... another example is Togepi. I can imagine that many kids love Togepi and Togetic, yet only Togekiss (only introduced in Gen IV!) is used in battle.

Also:

its impossible to make everyone happy... if you'd upgrade mawile into some major awesome pokemon then there would always be 1 or (more likely) more pokemon who would be downgraded...
hence a completely balanced competitive game isn't going to happen. Tiers are only tiers.
 

BlitzBlast

Busy with School
Ditto, Unown, and Mawile.

I don't see them doing much and they're pretty pathetic. Hell, Unown's page is a joke.

Still, I like Mawile and Unown. They're pretty cool.

Unown certainly falls into the category of "pathetic".

Ditto and Mawile not so much. Sure, they suck, but you can still actually use them if you really put your mind to it.

...At the very least Ditto lets you see the opponent's movepool.
 

Indragon

Back in the USSR
Nope, I couldn't care less for competitive balance. For the most, a balance already exists, and Pokemon shouldn't be made for their competitive value. The imbalance is what makes it fun and diverse IMO, what's the point of having every Pokemon at roughly the same power level? Most Pokemon are viable anyway.

On the contrary, creating a better balance of power between differing Pokemon would make diverse movesets, types, and abilities that much more vital to a competitive environment.

Not really. The balance of power would end up being more monotonous, I think, and it doesn't have much to do with moveset diversity. In fact, even now, one's free to diversify a team, but most people choose not to do that :p Essentially, it wouldn't make much of a difference.

Competitive is more important for video games nowadays.

Competitive's fun and all, but a lot of players don't bother with the competitive aspect of Pokemon. The large majority, in fact. NU's cool, by the way.

It can be both. Look at Farfetch'd for example, it's both pathetic and not used often, which is why it needs an evolution.

And once more, every Pokemon doesn't need to exist just to be powerful. A duck with leek in its hand is awesome enough for me.

Well no one is going to use them regardless if they can be used on every single tier.

Correction - people do use them, me included. They aren't complete trash; especially in their tier =P

...At the very least Ditto lets you see the opponent's movepool.

May not be for battling, but competitive breeding would be hell without Ditto. So, hurray!
 

Alder

Come at me bro
I've used plenty of NU/UU Pokemon in competitive battling teams. Ledian is one of the best leads I've ever had. I've done Seaking and Qwilfish sweeps. People have swept four team members of mine with a Sunflora alone. Wigglytuff can sweep with Gyro Ball and Trick Room. I've used Nidoking, Blastoise, Sceptile, all this stuff you barely seee in OU and I've killed things that are now Ubers (Latias, Garchomp).

It's all in how you use things. And some things, like Mothim, Unown, etc., are going to be crap. But that's the way the cookie crumbles. If you want to use your favorties, and they're crap, then get new favorites.

And let's not forget the infamous guy, whose name escapes me, who swept a team of Ubers with a Poliwag. Forgot how though.
 

Simse

Well-Known Member
Tiers have been created by fans, not by Gamefreak / Nintendo. They shouldn't do anything, Smogon create the most popular Tiers, go and complain to them. Also, the percentages for OU and Ubers are low, but you're forgetting that in the higher Tiers, the lower Tiers can be used. Therefore, you could possibly say there percentage is boosted.
 

SHINY CATCHER

Epic Snake is Epic!
Nobody likes to play NU battles, not even those who use NU Pokemon.

I like NU battles. :(
Also no Game Freak shouldn't balance the competitive metagame because then why would we need stategy as almost any Pokémon could kill any other Pokémon.
 

BlitzBlast

Busy with School
And if they do decide to balance everything, Smeargle is shooting straight up into God tier.

And I really don't think Ditto's new ability is going to change THAT much. Sure, it's getting something new (and admittingly awesome) but so is damn near everything else.
 

Profesco

gone gently
But if an evolution of Farfetch'd is used, Farfetch'd itself is still NU... or even worse, it'll be dropped to the NFE tier... bad news if Farfetch'd is your favourite, right? (I loved Rhydon, but now it's NFE due to Rhyperior...)..... but then AGAIN, that shouldn't stop you from using Farfetch'd, for:

The beauty is not in making Farfetch'd, individually, a competitively useful Pokemon, but rather the fact that you can train and spend your time with a Farfetch'd knowing that at the end of the training, it will finally be able to hold its own in battle, even if that happens to be after evolution. A person can love Farfetch'd and want to train one to be the best it can be, but when that person is all done training that Farfetch'd, it's going to be helpless and unhelpful in battle. You spent a lot of time and energy on a Pokemon you love, but then find you cannot use it and expect to see it succeed.

You would be displeased to train a Farfetch'd while your friend trained a Staraptor, and then watch as his Staraptor defeated Pokemon like Glalie and Medicham and Torterra while your Farfetch'd was evenly matched by, at best, Ponyta and Nosepass and Tangela, wouldn't you? At least if Farfetch'd evolved into a Pokemon that could merit the time spent training it, you would have some sense of security and goal achievement while training one.

Nope, I couldn't care less for competitive balance. For the most, a balance already exists, and Pokemon shouldn't be made for their competitive value. The imbalance is what makes it fun and diverse IMO, what's the point of having every Pokemon at roughly the same power level? Most Pokemon are viable anyway.

I have to disagree, Indragon. Imbalance in battle ability hinders diversity, if Smogon's tiering system is any indication. The most capable, threatening Pokemon, are reused over and over on many teams, in fact leading to the very name of the tier: Over Used. If only thirty out of a few hundred Pokemon are strong enough to match the rest of the group in battle, they will end up the only thirty being used among any group of people who enjoy winning more than losing. And this is, after all is said and done, a competitive franchise. Pokemon battling is the foundation of it all. Battling, a term inherently competitive.

You're right in that Pokemon should not be made for their competitive value, but all Pokemon should have at least some competitive value. A Pokemon rich in design creativity and in-universe lore could certainly forgo a place as equally coveted in terms of battle strength without being a cause for upset, but it should also be able to be sent into battle and actually have the ability to affect its opponent in a worthwhile way.

Unown makes a fine example of this concept. It is perhaps one of the most unique and richly storied of Pokemon, but its stats, typing, and movepool render it perfectly useless against the overwhelming majority of other Pokemon in battle. All it has at its disposal is Hidden Power, an attack ridiculously difficult to obtain at a useable strength and one that will never rise above a power of 70. Even attacking a foe with a weakness, Unown could still not hope to achieve much success with a mere 72 Sp. Attack stat.

Not really. The balance of power would end up being more monotonous, I think, and it doesn't have much to do with moveset diversity. In fact, even now, one's free to diversify a team, but most people choose not to do that :p Essentially, it wouldn't make much of a difference.

If you wanted to choose a Steel type Pokemon for your team, under the banner of your team's need for a Pokemon who could safely switch into a Toxic attack and fight back effectively, and whatever else the Steel type brought to your team was just extra, having fifteen useable Pokemon to choose from instead of seven would make your team much less predictable and much less monotonous, I'd think. The point of making Pokemon more competitively equal is the ideal of being able to choose from more than just one or two Pokemon who can withstand your opponents' attacks, or who can deal non-negligible damage to the opponent.

Maybe this largely comes down to design. The only reason we could ask for other Pokemon to be made competitively viable is because we want to battle with something that looks different from what everyone is always battling with, but still be able to combat those others on a decently equal footing. Otherwise, it would be all about the numbers, and the fact that you were using Staraptor instead of Farfetch'd (or our hypothetical Farfetch'd evolution) wouldn't make any difference at all. If you want to use a Normal/ Flying Pokemon on your team, and be able to switch it into a possible powerful Surf without fear, it is very limiting to know that that Pokemon has to be a Togekiss (just for the sake of example, since Togekiss is the most sturdy Normal/Flying type I can think of) or else you're just going to watch it faint. =/
 

BlitzBlast

Busy with School
Profesco said:
The only reason we could ask for other Pokemon to be made competitively viable is because we want to battle with something that looks different from what everyone is always battling with, but still be able to combat those others on a decently equal footing.

Er...

Profesco?

The entire point of Smogon's tier system is to allow this.

The whole point of separating the pokemon into tiers is to make it so no pokemon ever has to face something they never have a chance in hell of defeating. Since everyone seems to be using him for examples, let's take Farfetch'd. Because he sucks, nobody ever uses him, so he's in never used. This means he never has to compete against pokemon in under used, over used, borderline, or uber unless the player really wants him to. Because he's in never used, he only has to really compete with the pokemon in never used; pokemon he has a chance against.

Also Unown is a total joke pokemon. I thought that was obvious.
 
Last edited:

Profesco

gone gently
Er...

Profesco?

The entire point of Smogon's tier system is to allow this.

The whole point of separating the pokemon into tiers is to make it so no pokemon ever has to face something they never have a chance in hell of defeating. Since everyone seems to be using him for examples, let's take Farfetch'd. Because he sucks, nobody ever uses him, so he's in never used. This means he never has to compete against pokemon in under used, over used, borderline, or uber unless the player really wants him to. Because he's in never used, he only has to really compete with the pokemon in never used; pokemon he has a chance against.

Well of course. I know that. :p

I figured it didn't need to be factored into my argument because the point of the thread is to discuss Gamefreak's control over Pokemon competitive viability, not that of the fanmade sector. Where the Pokemon end up in a fanmade tier system is a point separate from the competitive ability given them upon design at their makers' discretion.

Besides, that's still just Farfetch'd being on an even footing with Ponyta and Luvdisc and Nosepass and Tangela and such, not with the rest of the cadre of available Pokemon.

Also Unown is a total joke pokemon. I thought that was obvious.

Really? Huh. That fact was Unown to me.

Ba dum-tch!
 
Last edited:

BlitzBlast

Busy with School
Competitive ability is what actually differentiates pokemon.

So yeah.

Profesco said:
Really? Huh. That fact was Unown to me.

Ba dum-tch!

You could say that the fact was rather... Farfetch'd.
 

Profesco

gone gently
Competitive ability is what actually differentiates pokemon.

So yeah.

It's just one aspect that differentiates them. It's derived from other factors that define Pokemon, like type, ability, and moveset, which are not inherently competitive in nature. Moveset and ability also derive a Pokemon's usefulness in capturing other Pokemon (i.e: False Swipe learners with Arena Trap, for example). It's just that the competitive differentiation is the focal point of the franchise. I'd actually wager that the single most differentiating feature of Pokemon is their appearance, since that's more what appeals to the target audience, and, obviously, is the first impression Pokemon make.

You could say that the fact was rather... Farfetch'd.

Eh... sure, Wynaut?
 

BlitzBlast

Busy with School
Nah, competitive ability encompasses every aspect of a pokemon besides how it looks and its pokedex data (though, admittingly, its general power does affect its pokedex entry sometimes).

Really, put it like this; say you could get every pokemon to learn every move and every ability and you could set the stats to whatever you want. If this was the case, you could play with any pokemon right?

But would that really be a good thing?

Profesco said:
Eh... sure, Wynaut?

Well that's just Swellow.
 
Top