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Competitive Balance: Yes or No?

Should Game Freak try and make the games more "balanced"?

  • Yes

    Votes: 21 39.6%
  • No

    Votes: 32 60.4%

  • Total voters
    53

BlitzBlast

Busy with School
Yes, like, why the fuck Charizard isn't Fire/Dragon yet? Being a Fire/Flying makes it super vulnerable to Stealth Rock, and that puts Charizard as the weakest fully evolved starter, but in reality it's not. It's not fair man. Charizard deserves to be stronger than other fully evolved starters such as Sceptile or Swampert, if not equally strong.

...This is an ungodly fusion of many of the things I hate about this boar- no, this forum. Pretty sure General doesn't suffer from Charizard fanboys.

Also, we need some sort of picture for whenever someone complains about Charizard or Gyarados having a Flying sub-element.
 

Indragon

Back in the USSR
You would be displeased to train a Farfetch'd while your friend trained a Staraptor, and then watch as his Staraptor defeated Pokemon like Glalie and Medicham and Torterra while your Farfetch'd was evenly matched by, at best, Ponyta and Nosepass and Tangela, wouldn't you? At least if Farfetch'd evolved into a Pokemon that could merit the time spent training it, you would have some sense of security and goal achievement while training one.

But you'd lose the rush of glorious achievement when your Farfetch'd (weilding a Stick!) Swords Dance-criticals through half of the opposing team, wouldn't you?!

I have to disagree, Indragon. Imbalance in battle ability hinders diversity, if Smogon's tiering system is any indication. The most capable, threatening Pokemon, are reused over and over on many teams, in fact leading to the very name of the tier: Over Used.

Well, yes, that's true. If you go by the data on Smogon's Shoddy server, that is. It's because people choose to keep using those Pokemon. A system is just as good as those who use it, after all. Even with Pokemon, it's not the system that's flawed. Even then, this isn't the whole picture of the battling scenario.

Honestly, the Pokemon I like to use in my teams are chosen after considering whether it'd be capable of fulfilling a certain role on my team and fit in well and whether I like the Pokemon/feel like training it; not on its tier. I try to bring out the best in the Pokemon I train and make sure they're effective in the team, even though they may not be considered the best. Why restrict oneself when NU Pokemon can work as well?

Heh, brand me as non-competitive, but it ain't only about winning. It's about how you play. Sure, I'm looking to win, and I'll try my best to get there, but the fun's in the battle, isn't it? The vastness of competitive Pokemon - that's the best thing about it, and it's always fun to try out something new. I'm not going to use a weaker Pokemon for the sake of using it, but I have no problems using a Pokemon considered weak, as usually, it's capable of getting the job done.

^_^;;

Oh, and I've got nothing against Smogon, or its tiers, in case you were wondering. In fact, Smogon's awesome; but it's not the be-all-and-end-all of everything. :p

You're right in that Pokemon should not be made for their competitive value, but all Pokemon should have at least some competitive value. A Pokemon rich in design creativity and in-universe lore could certainly forgo a place as equally coveted in terms of battle strength without being a cause for upset, but it should also be able to be sent into battle and actually have the ability to affect its opponent in a worthwhile way.

You're right, of course. Almost every Pokemon should be able to do something worthwhile in battle. But no, I wouldn't say all Pokemon. Unown, for instance. It's remained useless for as long as I can remember and I wouldn't want that to change. A few Pokemon like these here and there - they're fine and not much of a loss.

Bringing the revered Luvdisc into the discussion, there's no denying it's horrible. It's not even "special" like Unown. I wouldn't mind it getting an evolution at all. But then there are things like Arbok, who you'd like to see evolve to be at par with other Pokemon; but who, I believe, is fine already.

'Course, one has to remember that without Luvdisc, my Stantler couldn't have farmed around 30 Heart Scales during a Swarm! :D

Unown makes a fine example of this concept. It is perhaps one of the most unique and richly storied of Pokemon, but its stats, typing, and movepool render it perfectly useless against the overwhelming majority of other Pokemon in battle. All it has at its disposal is Hidden Power, an attack ridiculously difficult to obtain at a useable strength and one that will never rise above a power of 70. Even attacking a foe with a weakness, Unown could still not hope to achieve much success with a mere 72 Sp. Attack stat.

Well, as BlitzBlast put it, it's true that Unown, Luvdisc, and a few others belong to that rare group of joke Pokemon, if you will :p They're just random, gimmicky ones thrown in there, and were meant to be pathetically weak.

Either way, Unown may not be suited for battles, but the "story" behind it makes it a worthy addition to the Pokemon line, IMO. I still stand by the fact that Pokemon aren't, and shouldn't, be based on their power and usefulness in the OU metagame; if a Pokemon's strong, that's a nifty bonus. But yeah, most Pokemon should be able to hold their own in battle.

I'd actually wager that the single most differentiating feature of Pokemon is their appearance, since that's more what appeals to the target audience

Not just the target audience either ;P

And wasn't the Physical/Special split a good thing? =x

Righto. I'd even go so far as to say that it was the best thing which happened to battling in Gen 4.

It comes down to the ideal of not having so many instances in which "favorite" and "useable" are mutually exclusive.

But it isn't! As me and a few others have mentioned, a very large percentage of Pokemon (fully evolved, at least) are useable. There is a balance. You can play with Pokemon which aren't OU and win; it just comes down to your choice again. I may come across as too optimistic, but quite honestly, useable and good go beyond the current tiers, as I believe you've said yourself. Tiers will always be based on how a Pokemon performs there, even beyond stats. Weak to attacks from OU's top Pokemon, or perhaps walled by the two best physical walls there? Not OU material. Of course, there's the whole outclassing thing too, but that doesn't make a Pokemon bad and unuseable, as implied by the usage stats. It's very rare that a Pokemon is completely outclassed. Heck, even Dragonite was "outclassed" just a couple of months ago; but it was still different enough to be used.

Take our Luvdisc example. What is the only thing it can do? A Water type special sweep, if that. But you could easily just take Golduck and do a Water type special sweep, and it outclasses Luvdisc in every Water-type-special-sweeping way, so Luvdisc remains never used. Or, you could take a Suicune and do an even better Water type special sweep, since it outclasses Golduck totally in the same way, leaving Golduck to go under-used.

Ah, but here's the thing - would you? Yes, Suicune outclasses Golduck in a way, but does that mean that Golduck is bad per se? It can perform a special sweep adequately. What if someone wanted to use Golduck? It still remains an option, and you aren't comparatively disadvantaged by using it, s'long as you play to Golduck's strengths. Luvdisc...well, it can't do much, what else can I say XD

Incidentally, what if the only Suicune a person has is the one caught in HG/SS? But that's been trained to be a defensive Rest-Talker, and now a Water typed special sweeper is needed. Also, if we're going by separate tiers, you've gotta remember that Suicune can only be used in OU and Ubers, so other Pokemon will have to replace it in lower-tiered matches. That's why people play the other tiers, right? But a Pokemon may be "NU", but it can be used anywhere! =P

It would be, in my opinion, far more vibrant and exciting for the competitive community if Luvdisc and Golduck had stats that made them similar/near enough to Suicune that, should you want, you could use any of the three and still have a reliable Water type sweeper on your team (granting, of course, that they keep whatever ability/moveset differences already in effect that help to differentiate them from Suicune).

And just continuing on, what would be the point of making the three even in power? Wouldn't that be...bland? Sure, you could say it'd help foster diversity and give people more options, but in the end, everyone's using a Suicune with a different sprite. You aren't really using those Pokemon which were originally meant to remain different. Using Golduck for what it is - that's what's interesting. In fact, if one were to look at Suicune and Golduck now, there are a few notable differences, which could warrant Golduck's use over the other. Cross Chop/Focus Punch to hammer the likes of Blissey and support options like Hypnosis and Encore? Suicune doesn't get those. An ability to negate weather as well. It's how one spots and utilizes these qualities that count.

there's more to Pokemon than competitiveness

And this, I believe, sums up a lot of my feelings. Simply focusing on this one aspect isn't what everyone's looking for.I can see why you'd like more of a balance, but the imbalance which exists is really because of how the competitive metagame functions. Play in a different metagame, and things change. Pokemon wouldn't be Pokemon if this balance of power were to be corrected. I think our only argument here is just about how you'd like everything to be on a relatively equal footing, and how I believe most of them are strong and equal enough already and how more people should realize this and diversify. Ah well, I've always been a foolish idealist. ;]
 
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