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Concerns With Let's Go Being True To What Made RBY so special.

Discussion in 'Let's GO Pikachu & Eevee' started by Kabuto, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. Kabuto

    Kabuto little punks!

    Yeah, I know Pokemon was always an easy game series- we're not talking about Final Fantasy levels of depth here in the main story of Pokemon games. But there was a certain level of challenge to the series- a certain amount of freedom the player has.

    For example, Pikachu can't defeat Brock with ease at all, which encourages the player to catch and train other Pokemon. There was a certain level of exploration, of uncertainty.

    But Pikachu now learns Double Kick? (To deal with Brock?) And a water/grass type is REQUIRED to face him? That just seems so utterly hand holding. Let the player figure this stuff out on their own, even if it is ridiculously easy to do, it still creates some kind of competence.

    And if the rival was truly replaced...they'd better have a darn good substitute. Blue/Gary was the fuel/motivation of the story- you not only wanted to be an amazing trainer for your own purposes, but you wanted to best your smug rival. He was the part of the game that truly kept it moving, trying to defeat the person who was always one step ahead of you but lacked the trust/compassion you had as the player. So he was ultimately defeated in the end. It made Red/Blue memorable, gave the games an identity all these years later.

    So, I don't mind the games creating more conveniences, but I do have concerns that they remove the very essence of what made Pokemon Red, Blue, and Yellow so special in the first place.
     
  2. Sαpphire

    Sαpphire Well-Known Member

    First of all, these are explicitly introductory games, not just straight Yellow remakes as FRLG, HGSS, and ORAS were to their games. The level of difficulty will absolutely be easier in the early stages of the game, and they'll likely feel like X and Y for that part of the game. It's intentional, and it's integral to what these games are - you have to take issue with their very existence if you are to criticize that approach. They're not made for the twenty-year veterans of the series to feel challenged, but rather to introduce a new, broader generation (that includes the children of older players and other players previously young even for the Pokemon demographic) to the series. As far as I can see, they seem extremely good in that context.

    Second, there really wasn't a story to the first generation, or it's more recent remakes. I would argue that any disappointment over Blue's removal or recharacterization lies in pure nostalgia. His occasional snark and snide comments of "smell ya later!" as you literally follow him around Kanto don't make for much of a story, even coupled with the very loose and bare bones Team Rocket plot line. He just wasn't all that deeply interesting - but he's one of the classics, so people will be extra disappointed that the rival isn't like him, I guess.

    The core of the first generation experience lies in exploring the region and building a team to battle with and become the Champion. It was about these strange new creatures you'd never seen that could do amazing things, and in the places you travelled to find them and form a team bond. That theme has carried over to every installment of the series, and is, at its heart, what truly drives whatever plot they throw into each set of games. It's being emphasized here in these games, with your starter always being out and riding your shoulder, and with another Pokemon able to follow you, and with the Kanto region being updated to look absolutely stunning in HD 3D. The focus on the classic 151 emphasizes their approach to capturing the true feel of old Kanto.

    I would argue that these games will be some of the truest to the Pokemon experience in years, and that they will be a good modern parallel to the original Kanto experience.
     
    Arcanineblitz and Orphalesion like this.
  3. DatsRight

    DatsRight Well-Known Member

    The Pokemon GO mechanics for wild encounters leave me worried how much room there will be for actual direct training of your Pokemon, since you will have to search for an unfought trainer just to level grind or even just practice their abilities. Even if Pokemon get boosts from wild captures, it would lack intuition and as mentioned there won't be opportunities to get equipped to your Pokemon before key battles, compared to earlier games where you could just go up to a grass area with some low level wilds and practice there.
     
  4. WhiteBlair

    WhiteBlair Master Breeder.

    For veteran players like us, yes it is an option. For a newcomer/kids to the franchise, I doubt they even face against a Rock type until the Pewter GYM to understand Fighting-type is effective against Rock-types. But, I can see the 'Butterfree used Confusion!-fam' feeling here.

    Again, understandable. If you're new to the series and don't want to spoil yourself with the mechanics, it is a nice teaching move to let you understand Rock-type is vulnerable to Water/Grass types, which again, you have no chance to experience that at all during your travel in Viridian Forest. The man in the GYM, also, states that it is only for those who never challenged a GYM before. Think how the tips were given to Ethan/Lyra in HG/SS when you talk to the same man and he gives you tips about which types were effective or non-effective in their GYM.

    While I agree with you that a rival similar to Blue might've sparked the interest more, they specifically mentioned that Trace also has another side to scare people, if I didn't misunderstood that part as 'being scared', so it will be fun to explore how he acts/reacts to situations in-game.
     
  5. Creyk

    Creyk Well-Known Member

    Since the story is not the same, it will not have the magic of the original of course. However, the changed encounter locations give me hope that the game has actual promise.
     
    erickexl likes this.
  6. Muffin Man

    Muffin Man Member

    The entire appeal of the Gen 1 story is that it's so subtle and minimalistic. It lets you figure things out for yourself, and never intrudes on that sense of exploration you're talking about.

    As for attributing Blue's appeal to nostalgia, c'mon man. I hate when people pull the nostalgia card like that. Blue, and a lot of the regular people around the game world who would often be rude or grouchy or sleazy or just not nice in general, just gave the game a rougher edge to it that made it feel more real. People in real life just aren't always nice and happy and stuff. The world isn't divided into "nice regular people" and "evil villains". No one's saying Blue was a super deep character or anything, he was just fun. It was fun having a rival who was kind of a douche, and it's a bit of a shame that they are replacing him with the standard "friendly" rival that we always get now.

    But that said, I'm still really excited for the game because it looks like it has tons of other kinds of charm, particularly in the way it really feels like you get to form a close family-like bond with your pokemon and sort of raise them like pets instead of just tools for battle.
     
    erickexl, Kein and Xuxuba like this.
  7. Kein

    Kein AKA Unown Seer

    Masuda said that he will get scared in some cases (probably Lavender and any Team Rocket encounter). There is nothing scary about him except for his weird chest.

    At the same time, the game encourages the player to catch as many Pokemon as possible (for candies) and even ditch the small ones that are harder to train. Perfecting IVs and Natures was bad enough, but this just seems aggressive.
     
    erickexl likes this.
  8. Chimchar15

    Chimchar15 Well-Known Member

    Pikachu being able to learn double kick is no different than Charmander being able to learn metal claw in Firered/Leafgreen. Also having a water or grass type as a requirement to face Brock isn't an issue since you don't actually have to use the Pokemon it just needs to be your party. For us veterans it's not like these changes actually makes the game harder since we all know this stuff and can opt out of making the game easier by doing things like not teaching Pikachu double kick. I don't see this as being that much different than the past games where if you talk to the guide he would tell you the best types to use against the gym. As far as Blue goes I understand why some wouldn't like the change as his character did add to the story but as we have yet to actually play through the game so I'll reserve judgement until after I beat the game.
     
    erickexl likes this.
  9. pokman

    pokman Aspiring Cheetos connoisseur

    Let's be honest, there is a plenty a difference between being given plenty of tips to make the game easier, and the game literally forcing you to play the way it wants you to play because of how incompetent it deems you to be. The overall sense from this game, at least in my opinion, is that it is very patronizing. Any functional human being should be able to simply read the advice that guides give, and that's that. They should then be given the choice to heed the advice or not. They can even litter the place with grass/water types if need be, but really, what good comes out of forcing this specific course of action?

    This is fairly inconsequential, but really, it accomplishes nothing other than to signal how little confidence Gamefreak has in children (or Go players, or whoever) to learn from their failures.
     
    Sceptile Leaf Blade likes this.
  10. Chimchar15

    Chimchar15 Well-Known Member

    That's the thing though no one is forced to play the game they way gamefreak wants you to play. Yes you have to grab a water or grass type to enter the gym but that's it once you're in just box it. It's barely any different in the way previous games made you follow a guide to show you what a Pokemon Center/Pokemart was, and showing you how to catch a Pokemon. The whole goal of forcing the specific action of catching a water or grass type is to help new players who haven't played a Pokemon game before learn how types work. To say "any functional human being should be able to simply read the advice that guides give, and that's that" is ignoring the fact that not every person plays on the same level. Yeah some of us didn't need as much help to figure some of this stuff out but others did in some of the past games. Are the hints a little more direct? Yes but at the end of the day they're still just options and we can still make the game as hard or as easy as we like them to be. This isn't a sign of little confidence it's Gamefreak making Pokemon games more accessible to a wider more causal audience which is the main purpose of the games themselves.
     
    erickexl likes this.
  11. pokman

    pokman Aspiring Cheetos connoisseur

    These events are the same as extended dialogue scenes - you don't have to do anything besides mash A. And arguably, they are much more warranted because of their significance in the game - virtually everyone needs to use Pokemon centers and marts, as well learn how to catch Pokemon; this information is not easily presented (or rather, demonstrated) otherwise.

    Again, what does forcing this course of action do that giving advice does not? It is only an inconvenience. They should have just given you a grass or water type, that way the hand-holding wouldn't have been inconvenience, at least.

    If they can read instructions that tell them to catch a certain Pokemon, then they can certainly read advice telling them how to battle the gym leaders. I can only reiterate so many times how meaningless it is. If they can't even do that, well, they have no chance of incorporating themselves into other, presumably more complex titles - it becomes a question of competence, not experience, at that point. I don't really know what else to say.
     
    Sceptile Leaf Blade likes this.
  12. Chimchar15

    Chimchar15 Well-Known Member

    That's it though it doesn't matter how meaningless it is to you or me, because these games aren't being targeted towards us but younger and newer players instead. Once again just because you and I can play these games at a certain level didn't mean everyone else can which is why these two games exist in the first place. It's fine if these mechanics bother you but to complain that a game targeted towards a causal audience is being causal makes no sense. We have get 8 coming out next year for those of us who want a core, more hands off experience.
     
    erickexl likes this.
  13. pokman

    pokman Aspiring Cheetos connoisseur

    I'm not sure it's worth continuing this discussion, but quite frankly, I already stopped caring about these games awhile ago - they're not games I'll enjoy, they're not games meant for me, and I can accept that. But I don't understand these useless patronizing gestures - they're relatively harmless, but it's the motivation behind them that matters. What exactly does Gamefreak take the resilience, curiosity, or intellect of children to be? These are the same people making the next core titles. How will these types of players integrate into the next generation of Pokemon games? How will they modify the next core titles in order to accommodate these new (and apparently, brain-dead) players? Does Gamefreak even plan to integrate them into standard titles?

    In short, I care because these actions implicate hand-holdy, intrusive, and ultimately detrimental design choices that have gone on for several years and show little sign of regressing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018 at 2:05 AM

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