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Connections Between The Different Iterations Of Ash

How do you interpret Ash?

  • The Ash from each saga should be viewed as his own character

  • The Ash from every saga should be viewed as the same character

  • The Ash from OS -> AG -> DP, BW -> XY, and SM should be viewed as 3 separate characters

  • The Ash from OS -> AG -> DP -> XY, BW, and SM should be viewed as 3 separate characters

  • The Ash from OS -> AG -> DP, BW, XY, and SM should be viewed as 4 separate characters

  • The Ash from OS -> AG -> DP -> XY -> SM, and BW should be treatedas 2 separate characters

  • The Ash from OS -> AG -> DP -> BW -> XY, and SM should be viewed as 2 separate characters

  • Other (please specify)


Results are only viewable after voting.

Thumbs2

Well-Known Member
Option two. Ash is meant to be the same person. He's written differently by different writers, but that means very little. The Superman written in an all-star superman comic and the one in a batman comic won't be written the same, but they're the same character. Most other ideas are fanfic-tier to explain why Ash isn't the way you like him.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Option two. Ash is meant to be the same person. He's written differently by different writers, but that means very little. The Superman written in an all-star superman comic and the one in a batman comic won't be written the same, but they're the same character. Most other ideas are fanfic-tier to explain why Ash isn't the way you like him.
FYI not all versions of Superman are the same person or even character (objectively speaking); all of them are just based on the same basic concept.

Also it’s not about how any given person “likes” Ash to be, but rather that characteristics of Ash in 1 series are blatantly inconsistent with characteristics of Ash in another series making the system of propositions in the Pokémon anime inconsistent which (you’d know if you’ve ever studied formal logic) results in being able to assert any proposition expressed in the language of the system as true (e.g. I can claim something as absurd as “Tepig can use Fly” in the anime and I’d be right if I were to accept that the “witnessed” BW was exactly the same as the BW that took place between the “witnessed” DP and XY). I guess most people wouldn’t really care about such an issue, but as someone who values internal logical consistency I can’t in good conscience accept Ash from the “witnessed” anime to have been the same person throughout or more specifically I can’t accept that the Ash from BW is the same Ash from DP or even XY.
 
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satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
And why do you think BW Ash is any different from his time in Sinnoh or Kalos?
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Well-Known Member
And why do you think BW Ash is any different from his time in Sinnoh or Kalos?
Personality wise BW Ash is similar to DP/XY Ash but was lacking in their competence

XY Ash knew the basics and was calm in battles

DP Ash knew the basics and used unique strategies in battles

BW Ash at times showed he knew the basics and at times used unique strategies but ultimately was lacking in both
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
Personality wise BW Ash is similar to DP/XY Ash but was lacking in their competence

XY Ash knew the basics and was calm in battles

DP Ash knew the basics and used unique strategies in battles

BW Ash at times showed he knew the basics and at times used unique strategies but ultimately was lacking in both.
Ash was off his game in BW and didn't take his craft as seriously as he did in those regions, evidented by not training as much and mainly focusing on catching Pokemon. After all, he did go on vacation with his mom and stayed just because he liked the region and wanted to explore it. He did hopefully, try to resolve his Pokémon's issues like helping Tepig overcome it's PTSD with its trainer that din't want him or instead of using Pikachu as much, he wanted Oshawott to battle more to get rid of his cowardice nature, helped him learn Aqua Jet, and to not overly rely on its scalpel. Also, Ash did participate in the Battle Club and Don George tournaments, doing seemingly well.
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Well-Known Member
Ash was off his game in BW and didn't take his craft as seriously as he did in those regions, evidented by not training as much and mainly focusing on catching Pokemon. After all, he did go on vacation with his mom and stayed just because he liked the region and wanted to explore it. He did hopefully, try to resolve his Pokémon's issues like helping Tepig overcome it's PTSD with its trainer that din't want him or instead of using Pikachu as much, he wanted Oshawott to battle more to get rid of his cowardice nature, helped him learn Aqua Jet, and to not overly rely on its scalpel. Also, Ash did participate in the Battle Club and Don George tournaments, doing seemingly well.
After Ash lost to a trainer who uses legendary pokemon he mentally and physically couldn't take it anymore and decided not to give it his all,so he decided to treat his Unova journey as a vacation.

Ash in BW constantly being criticized by Iris,constantly losing to a rookie trainer in Trip,and losing to a somewhat idiotic trainer who only used 5 pokemon at the Unova League snapped him out of it and lit a fire under his a** when he entered into XY and reached "Stu like" levels just so he could level down to a happy go lucky child in SM that is being compared to the greatness that is AG Ash.
I called this a while back that he was on vacation and wasn't taking it seriously,but that was jusy my theory.Wasn't it the writer's idea to go back to how things were in OS?If that's the case then BW Ash is from an alternate universe because realistically BW Ash should be equal or better to how he was in DP.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
I called this a while back that he was on vacation and wasn't taking it seriously,but that was jusy my theory.Wasn't it the writer's idea to go back to how things were in OS?If that's the case then BW Ash is from an alternate universe because realistically BW Ash should be equal or better to how he was in DP.
While I don't think BW was made to parallel/be like OS, I do remember there being a rumor of BW being a reboot (before it aired) but that's all that it is, a rumor that doesn't hold much ground. Ash does start from square one when it comes to exploring a new region but to say BW is an alternate universe just because the writers wanted to take elements from the OS is a bit much. ^^ Nothing wrong with taking inspiration to what has already happened.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Personality wise BW Ash is similar to DP/XY Ash but was lacking in their competence

XY Ash knew the basics and was calm in battles

DP Ash knew the basics and used unique strategies in battles

BW Ash at times showed he knew the basics and at times used unique strategies but ultimately was lacking in both
You can’t just separate the personality entirely from the trainer aspects. For example in a 5 vs 5 against Trip Ash sees very clearly that both his Oshawatt and Tepig aren’t up to snuff (they were practically dead weight in that match). Soon after Ash uses those same 2 Pokémon against Lenora and of course they get wrecked after which he makes them undergo training. The issue is why didn’t Ash train them up the moment he saw how poor they are in battle? I’m highly confident that DP or XY Ash would’ve at least attempted to sort out any issue like this immediately after becoming aware of it though with BW Ash we get literally zero indication that he’s tried to train up Oshawatt or Tepig prior to them getting owned by Lenora’s Pokémon in the first match. Yeah this shows a lack of competency as a trainer, but it would be incorrect to say that this is consistent with Ash’s previously established character since I seriously doubt that someone with the character of DP Ash would’ve acted like this in the same situation.

Maybe you could hand wave this as Ash not being all that serious in this region. Heck you could also hand wave other stuff like Ash trying to catch a Pokémon without battling it as just him being overzelous. You could even excuse a lot of other stuff like the Deus Ex Evolutions (that were only present in BW) whereby a Pokémon gets tremendous power up upon evolving only for said Pokémon to never battle at the lvl it did in its evolution battle ever again (it happened with both Ash’s Boldore and Unfezzant as well as Cameron’s Lucario) or the vs Roxie 6 vs 3 that made Ash look weak or even the Cameron fiasco where Ash looks pathetic for loosing to a moron who got only 5 Pokémon only for said moron to get wreckt 6-3 in the next round and for the guy who beat him to win the finals 6-5 making it clear that for the first time since Kanto Ash was nowhere near the “top echelon” of trainers in a league conference. While these aspects are abhorrent and some of them cast a very bad perception on BW Ash’s trainer competency, I wouldn’t call them fundamentally incompatible with the rest of the anime.

What I would; however, is the Elesa battle. I’ve gone on very long rants about this before (please let me know if you would like another long version of this) , but in summary there is literally no way in hell that the Ash from any other series including Kanto would ever pull the utter Bull$h1t that BW Ash did in this battle.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
Yikes except BW Cilan came and met Clemont and Bonnie. Cilan clearly remembered BW Ash on the DA boat saving Pikachu (a scene that was also in the original BW DA episodes). So clearly Best Wishes is within the same timeline as the rest of the series. As the mirror cave episode shows: not everything that happenes in the “original” universe occurs in the mirror universes and vice versa, for example Ash running away after being beat by Serena. So if that was a different Cilan spereate from the “witnessed” BW why did he have an exact flashback from the series? Unless you’re willing to argue that somehow “mirror Cilan” escaped from his universe into the main timeline
You want to know something funny? You wrote this post nearly a full day after I wrote the last post of Page 1 which coincidently already covers why the example you gave has no bearing on my mirror verse conjecture. In addition you also made a logical fallacy in your own argument since “not everything that happens in the “original” universe occurs in the mirror universes and vice versa” is not the same as “there exists an event that occurred in the “original” universe that occurred in exactly the same manner in a mirror verse” which is all that your example actually asserts. Here’s the post:

Just to be clear; when I say I consider the “witnessed” BW to be a “mirror verse” I mean something along the lines of the world we saw in XY 37 where all the same characters are there but with different personalities. Of course the mirror verse in XY 37 wouldn’t be the hypothetical mirror verse of the “witnessed” BW though that’s fine since it’s been stated that there are nearly infinitely many mirror verses, and so there should exist a mirror verse for almost any conceivable variation of parameters a.k.a there should exist a mirror verse where the events of the “witnessed” BW can occur with events in the “unseen true” BW being very similar for the most part except that Ash’s character and trainer skill would be in line with his DP and XY self (obviously since the “unseen true” BW would occur in the same verse as OS, AG, DP, and XY for me). It’s fine if many don’t agree with my position though I’d prefer it if they at least properly understood what my actual position is before rejecting it.

Congratulations! You have just shown everyone reading this thread that you are either sorely lacking in reading comprehension or don’t have the intellectual capacity to understand that my post already accounted for this example or perhaps you just missed it in which case I guess I’m not the only visually impaired guy on this forum :).
 
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PokemonBattleFanatic-

Well-Known Member
You can’t just separate the personality entirely from the trainer aspects. For example in a 5 vs 5 against Trip Ash sees very clearly that both his Oshawatt and Tepig aren’t up to snuff (they were practically dead weight in that match). Soon after Ash uses those same 2 Pokémon against Lenora and of course they get wrecked after which he makes them undergo training. The issue is why didn’t Ash train them up the moment he saw how poor they are in battle? I’m highly confident that DP or XY Ash would’ve at least attempted to sort out any issue like this immediately after becoming aware of it though with BW Ash we get literally zero indication that he’s tried to train up Oshawatt or Tepig prior to them getting owned by Lenora’s Pokémon in the first match. Yeah this shows a lack of competency as a trainer, but it would be incorrect to say that this is consistent with Ash’s previously established character since I seriously doubt that someone with the character of DP Ash would’ve acted like this in the same situation.

Maybe you could hand wave this as Ash not being all that serious in this region. Heck you could also hand wave other stuff like Ash trying to catch a Pokémon without battling it as just him being overzelous. You could even excuse a lot of other stuff like the Deus Ex Evolutions (that were only present in BW) whereby a Pokémon gets tremendous power up upon evolving only for said Pokémon to never battle at the lvl it did in its evolution battle ever again (it happened with both Ash’s Boldore and Unfezzant as well as Cameron’s Lucario) or the vs Roxie 6 vs 3 that made Ash look weak or even the Cameron fiasco where Ash looks pathetic for loosing to a moron who got only 5 Pokémon only for said moron to get wreckt 6-3 in the next round and for the guy who beat him to win the finals 6-5 making it clear that for the first time since Kanto Ash was nowhere near the “top echelon” of trainers in a league conference. While these aspects are abhorrent and some of them cast a very bad perception on BW Ash’s trainer competency, I wouldn’t call them fundamentally incompatible with the rest of the anime.

What I would; however, is the Elesa battle. I’ve gone on very long rants about this before (please let me know if you would like another long version of this) , but in summary there is literally no way in hell that the Ash from any other series including Kanto would ever pull the utter Bull$h1t that BW Ash did in this battle.
And you're telling me all of this why?
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
And you're telling me all of this why?
Well the first para was for you since you said that all 3 Ashes had the same personality while the other 2 paras are not directed at anyone in particular.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
Deus Ex Evolutions (that were only present in BW) whereby a Pokémon gets tremendous power up upon evolving only for said Pokémon to never battle at the lvl it did in its evolution battle ever again (it happened with both Ash’s Boldore and Unfezzant as well as Cameron’s Lucario)
I don't think BW was the only saga that had Pokemon evolve mid match and win. It's an ongoing trope that once a Pokémon evolves or learns a new move, they automatically win.

What I would; however, is the Elesa battle. I’ve gone on very long rants about this before (please let me know if you would like another long version of this) , but in summary there is literally no way in hell that the Ash from any other series including Kanto would ever pull the utter Bull$h1t that BW Ash did in this battle.
The point of that episode was already explained by Adamant but here's a quote from playerking (whether you think it's bad or not, it justifies what he did.) And no, I don't want to hear the long version of something you already ranted about in the past.
For the record, the reason why Satoshi botched the battle was very well explained as him attempting to overthink everything and try to strategize ahead of time, panicking when things didn't work out the way he had intended them to. When Pikachu gave him a wake-up shock, he finally realized that taking things as they come, adapting to that, and improvising with what options he has available is how he battles best, used pikachu in such a manner for the rest of the battle, and thus avoided getting hit by obvious counters. No bad writing here.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
I don't think BW was the only saga that had Pokemon evolve mid match and win. It's an ongoing trope that once a Pokémon evolves or learns a new move, they automatically win.
BW was literally the only series where Ash’s Pokémon evolved mid gym battle (on 3 separate occasions) where in 2 of those occasions the evolved Pokémon (Boldore and Unfezzant) showed an unusual amount of battling prowess that they never displayed again even at the league. The only other time where Ash’s Pokémon evolved in an official battle (gym, bf, league) was Kingler in the Indigo league and considering that this Pokémon went on to nearly break a Cloyster’s shell and cause a tornado cyclone in the Whirl Cup, I doubt most would argue that the power it displayed against Mandy was inconsistent with its later performances. Also you’re wrong about it being a trope since in DP said “trope” was subverted on multiple occasions since both Grottle and Monferno lost their first battle in those forms (I’m really glad that DP did this) not to mention more recently Torracat also lost its evolution battle. The evolving -> to gaining temporary power up -> winning gym battle phenomena was exclusive to BW.


The point of that episode was already explained by Adamant but here's a quote from playerking (whether you think it's bad or not, it justifies what he did.) And no, I don't want to hear the long version of something you already ranted about in the past.
Well no surprise here since you clearly seem to “like” blatantly fallacious reasoning. So could you please tell me how “overthinking” and strategizing beforehand (which news flash other versions of Ash particularly DP and XY Ash could do just fine) results in someone only bringing 1 Pokémon to a gym and assuming everything will be fine cuz type advantage? Also can you explain how that makes any sense for the same character who’s done stuff like beaten ground types with electric Pokémon (and that too with electric moves) and in general has time and again spat in the face of type matchup (e.g. beat a Blastoise with a Charizard). He was also a moron since he said he had no Pokémon with him when Pikachu was right there, but that’s not the main problem. If you sincerely think that Ash is the same character throughout, then you have no choice but to accept that the writing was horrendous for the Elesa battle (unless of course you don’t mind your own views being internally inconsistent). That battle is a fundamental contradiction to the very core of Ash’s values as a trainer; If you don’t mind that then it’s fine, but please don’t insult my intelligence by asserting that there was “no bad writing here”.
 
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satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
BW was literally the only series where Ash’s Pokémon evolved mid gym battle (on 3 separate occasions) where in 2 of those occasions the evolved Pokémon (Boldore and Unfezzant) showed an unusual amount of battling prowess that they never displayed again even at the league. The only other time where Ash’s Pokémon evolved in an official battle (gym, bf, league) was Kingler in the Indigo league
I can agree with this. But otherwise, a lot of the group's Pokémon evolved during an uneventful sparring with Team Rocket. They probably decided to start making their evolution have more value and be meaningful later down the road.

Also you’re wrong about it being a trope since in DP said “trope” was subverted on multiple occasions since both Grottle and Monferno lost their first battle in those forms (I’m really glad that DP did this) not to mention more recently Torracat also lost its evolution battle. The evolving -> to gaining temporary power up -> winning gym battle phenomena was exclusive to BW.
Yes and those are exceptions but IN GENERAL, most Pokémon, when they evolve or learn a new move, win the match. It's undeniable that they gained more strength and energy once they evolved. Frogedier evolved TWICE and won against an old man's Bisharp.


Well no surprise here since you clearly seem to “like” blatantly fallacious reasoning.
You mean listening to a mod who had to translate and clarify why Ash was acting this way in the episode?

So could you please tell me how “overthinking” and strategizing beforehand (which news flash other versions of Ash particularly DP and XY Ash could do just fine) results in someone only bringing 1 Pokémon to a gym and assuming everything will be fine cuz type advantage?
You're taking what was meant as a comedic moment too seriously... again, he was testing out a different battling method that almost cost him the match because of it.

Also can you explain how that makes any sense for the same character who’s done stuff like beaten ground types with electric Pokémon (and that too with electric moves)"cough"early anime error"cough" and in general has time and again spat in the face of type matchup (e.g. beat a Blastoise with a Charizard). He was also a moron since he said he had no Pokémon with him when Pikachu was right there, but that’s not the main problem. If you sincerely think that Ash is the same character throughout, then you have no choice but to accept that the writing was horrendous for the Elesa battle
Yes I do think that Ash is the same character throughout. I'm rather apathetic about the writing for the Elesa battle. To me it was pretty entertaining. Did I think the battle was good? No. It was rather basic and unappealing aside from the obvious comedic moments.

That battle is a fundamental contradiction to the very core of Ash’s values as a trainer;
For one, Ash using type advantages or trying out a different method other than his own isn't going against his character. He may have proved in the past that Pokémon with a type disadvantage can win against it but that doesn't mean that he can't think up a strategy or god forbid, use a Pokémon with a type advantage for that sole intent. He learned his lesson in this battle and went ahead and used Pikachu as he normally did, improvising.

If you don’t mind that then it’s fine, but please don’t insult my intelligence by asserting that there was “no bad writing here”.
How am I insulting your intelligence? I just said that I posted an old quote made by playerking a.k.a., not my quote, explaining Ash's behavior in that episode.
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Well-Known Member
Well the first para was for you since you said that all 3 Ashes had the same personality while the other 2 paras are not directed at anyone in particular.
I said he has a similar personality,not entirely the same,if you don't see it then fine I'm not gonna spend several pages talking about it.
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
I can agree with this. But otherwise, a lot of the group's Pokémon evolved during an uneventful sparring with Team Rocket. They probably decided to start making their evolution have more value and be meaningful later down the road.
Well it made those more “meaningful” wins feel cheaper in the process but whatever.


Yes and those are exceptions but IN GENERAL, most Pokémon, when they evolve or learn a new move, win the match. It's undeniable that they gained more strength and energy once they evolved. Frogedier evolved TWICE and won against an old man's Bisharp.
There you go again; completely missing the point. The point isn’t that they win after evolving and/or learning a new move. The point is that their (Boldore and Unfezzant) performances in the battle where those things happened wasn’t consistent with the performances they had in later battles (it could also be argued for Pignite since it beat 2 Pokémon simultaneously upon evolving though Pignite at least had decent feats later on) and that isn’t the case for any non-Unova Ash Pokémon (their power in their evolution battle isn’t inconsistent with their power in subsequent battles). Okay and how is that inconsistent with what Veil A-G did later on?



You mean listening to a mod who had to translate and clarify why Ash was acting this way in the episode?
I wasn’t referencing that one though sadly being a mod doesn’t really have any credibility attached to it when it comes to one’s assessment skills of the Pokémon anime.


You're taking what was meant as a comedic moment too seriously...again, he was testing out a different battling method that almost cost him the match because of it.
Oh I’m so sorry... sorry that I actually care about the in-universe consistency of Ash’s character. So not bringing any other Pokémon with him is a different battling method? Also how is using type matchup to his benefit (something that he did a lot in DP though at least there he always had a full team on hand) “different” for Ash? Ash has long taken advantage of type matchup when possible though he’s also long understood that type matchup isn’t the be-all-end-all and that good strategy can be used to overcome a bad matchup (pretty much what he tells May and Max in early AG). Please don’t BS with me.


Yes I do think that Ash is the same character throughout. I'm rather apathetic about the writing for the Elesa battle.
Well if you’re indifferent then good for you; it doesn’t change the fact that the battle contradicts Ash’s values as a trainer.


For one, Ash using type advantages or trying out a different method other than his own isn't going against his character. He may have proved in the past that Pokémon with a type disadvantage can win against it but that doesn't mean that he can't think up a strategy or god forbid, use a Pokémon with a type advantage for that sole intent. He learned his lesson in this battle and went ahead and used Pikachu as he normally did, improvising.
Yeah let me give you an example of Ash actually using a “different method that didn’t work out”. Ash’s dancing strat with Lucha was a fairly big flop against Korrina and after seeing that it wasn’t working he changed back to his usual battling style and did fine. Notice; however, that in this case Ash actually had other Pokémon with him besides Hawlucha! I don’t consider that to go against Ash’s core values because he didn’t do anything in the battle that went against them. The act of not bringing his other Pokémon (or at least thinking that he didn’t) against Elesa does contradict his core values as a trainer since Ash’s philosophy has always been that type advantage isn’t the be-all-end-all (even in the series where he takes advantage of type matchup more frequently) yet there he was literally treating type matchup as the be-all-end-all since he was so confident that Palpitoad could sweep cuz type advantage that he didn’t even bother bringing any other Pokémon.

How am I insulting your intelligence? I just said that I posted an old quote made by playerking a.k.a., not my quote, explaining Ash's behavior in that episode.
If you agreed with this perosn’s argument and thought it was reasonable enough to refute my stance on the Elesa battle, then yes you were insulting my intelligence since the argument that you were presenting as compelling is actually quite faulty. Also it doesn’t really explain Ash’s behavior. For starters why was it that facing Elesa of all people made Ash have to supposedly “overthink”? Since you consider him to be the same character throughout, surely I don’t have to tell you about the gym challenges that Ash has faced till this point many of which were far tougher than Elesa. It literally makes zero sense that the prospect of facing Elesa made him “overthink” to the point where he betrayed his values as a trainer by not even bothering to bring more than 1 Pokémon.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I don't think BW was the only saga that had Pokemon evolve mid match and win. It's an ongoing trope that once a Pokémon evolves or learns a new move, they automatically win.

Yeah, next to EVERY evolution in the anime occurs when one of the twerps are losing and need something to make it a curbstomp in their favour again (because heaven forbid they be forced to use actual strategy too often :p). SM is about the only one that has subverted it by having the evolution more story segregated (Lycanroc) or having the Pokemon evolve but still lose (Torracat), though the OS just had some standard game-esque evolutions where it happened AFTER they'd done the good deed.

BW's main problem was that it placed those into key arc battles, though it doesn't make that power boost any less deus ex machina in other cases since it's still permanent. Also I think it was going on opposite mentality from other series, which usually put them into the villain battles. BW had more developed matches against antagonists like Team Rocket, with them putting up even fights and the twerps being played more as the underdogs who were actually working and sweating to stop them for a change, I guess the writers could only do so many good battles, so the gyms and tournaments took the fall for plot armour moments.

I suppose if it's any consolation, BW Ash at least often had TR fights of all things as his redeemer. Even DP and XY Ash, despite having awesome fair and square gym battles, often needed these power boosts the moment TR or some other bad guy started dishing out hits instead of just taking them, which after a while made him look kinda dumb ("Thunderbolt that shock proof mech!...eh, that didn't work?...oh no, what do we do?" *Pokemon lights up*).

It's odd how the less battle competent Ashs tend to be less gullible and one-track against the villains. Johto and Hoenn era Ash were about the only cases that had good gyms AND were still a bit savvy against TR.
 
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Genaller

Silver Soul
SM Ash is in fact a continuation of XY Ash since during the Grand Trial against Olivia, Ash uses the same poses as Alain did during the Kalos League
You’re making the same mistake AxS did. Assuming that I considered the witnessed SM to occur in a mirror verse all you’ve shown (at best) is that “there exist an event in this mirror verse that occured in a similar manner to how it occured in the true continuity” which doesn’t actually refute my claim (which you’d know if you properly read my stance on the matter). I’ve already said that I’ll wait till SM is over before deciding but such a (seemingly trollish) refutation isn’t weakening my stance.
 
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