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Cons of your favorite series and pros of your least favorite

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Why are you so obssessed with it though? Why do the characters have to flow the plot in a unique way as you say? Is not it enough just to flow the plot? The majority of animes, mainly of shonen genre, are like that. Why are you demanding this from Pokémon, an anime based in a game where the MC has no personality and just follows the flow of the story? No options given to player to take.

1. I don't actually watch a lot of other anime.

2. Games structure is different from cartoon structure since for the latter the story is the primary appeal. I like to be invested in my protagonists.

I admit some of my qualms are prevalent in MANY other works of fiction, the hero being the everyman/reactor or the plot armoured character that always wins, those are standard obstacles in making a hero, though I've seen several cartoons and works that at least manage to make it more subtle and try to give their protagonist some amount of token appeal, while for a long while the Pokemon anime was becoming mechanical. Even the token times the protagonist LOST at something were often so predictably timed and structured they became another automated part of the formula. A protagonist that does not seem to be effective to the plot as much vice versa just drives apathy for me. I want to care about the guy who pulls through in the end.
 

Zhydra

Master of Chaos!
Sheesh this argument has gone on long enough! Can we get back to the topic on this forum before it collapse on itself, please!
 

Genaller

Silver Soul
and it was only more glaring because she wasn't exactly competent as a trainer in a distinctive way.
Well yeah she was never interested in training her Pokémon for the purpose of battles. If you’re saying competency as a performer then nope her competency was very “distinctive”.

and she'd stream through a performance contest only losing by her own hand, even in cases her contributions were very bare and boring.
It felt too much like blatant plot armour that robbed a shade of fallibility from her.
Firstly it’s never made explicitly clear whether she would or wouldn’t loose had she not made those mistakes. 2ndly unless you have any justification for her performances being “very bare and boring” then the criticism is meaningless since I didn’t find them to be bare or boring.

What’s “blatant” here is how you’re contradicting yourself. You claim that Serena lost because of her own mistakes (specifically prioritizing aesthetics over functionality when cutting Fennikin’s ribbon the first time and not accounting for Eevee still being too scared to perform in front of other people though for the 2nd instance her growth is showcased in that she doesn’t crack, and instead encourages Eevee to finish the performance despite knowing that she’ll probably loose due to her mistake) yet you then claim that the narrative made it appear like Serena had no fallibility.

This to me undermined the idea that Serena herself was changing the outcome of things because everything felt so relatively dumbed down for her in place of her having to actually struggle much and get genuinely better. She had internal struggles but when they were solved, nothing was allowed to slow her down.
She was changing the outcome by not making those mistakes and improving the quality of her performances. It’s only “dumbed down” for you because you didn’t bother to pay attention to the care and detail put in Serena’s performances (which like Epicocity already said look drastically different from her first in XY 80 to her last in XYZ 19).

This I agree is subjective and I know I do obsess over this about Serena to an unhealthy level, it's just her overwhelming winning streak in nearly everything (or at least the avoidance of getting outclassed directly) was something that really bugs me for some reason.
The narrative makes it clear that she was outclassed by Aria in that Aria got over twice as many votes as her.

It's maybe also why I love SM Ash since not only is he distinctively competent but he is allowed to fail MISERABLY at some things which furthers the idea that his character has bounds and fallibility and it's his characteristics that drive how well he does (most of the time anyway, as there are still a more forgivable amount of plot armour moments).
Yeah SM Ash as of now is objectively bad in terms of trainer skill when compared to DP and XY Ash not to mention that some of his character moments like the petty reason for why he initially wanted to catch Litten, his “cheating” and his boastfulness when Misty gave him a sincere compliment (and before anyone tried to say that was because Misty and Brock made fun of his pity badges keep in mind that Ash himself first acted all high and mighty about getting those badges so the root of the issue is still Ash’s boastfulness which would’ve never happened if it were DP or XY Ash in that situation) go against the direction of his character in DP and XY. I don’t care if this version of Ash is closer to your ideal for a main character; he still does quite poorly with respect to his overarching progression as a trainer and person throughout the show.
 

AznKei

Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
On the other hand, short 5 second scenes don’t qualify as writers shoving Amour down your throa
5 seconds can make a huge difference. Otherwise the audience wouldn't make a fuss about it constantly. But if you disagree that's fine.
If you have problem with ash then stop watching this show or just watch specials, because he is not going anywhere, as for companions there will always be companions who be shoved aside, clemont was anyways uninteresting character who should have been written off after gym battle. Ash is always going to get more focus so either deal with it or just dont watch the show. He is the biggest reason for this show's success and longevity.
What? I'm not allowed to be critical over a show? This is a discussion and I'm allowed to write what I dislike. Whether I watch the show or not, it's not your concern, I can handle myself. I didn't force you saying that Ash sucks and that you should retire for it.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Sheesh this argument has gone on long enough! Can we get back to the topic on this forum before it collapse on itself, please!

Fine I think I've lost anyway. It's a very strange and specific form of subjective annoyance for me anyway, even I'm not quite sure why it annoys me to such extreme levels, but I've toxified a lot of threads with it.
 
5 seconds can make a huge difference. Otherwise the audience wouldn't make a fuss about it constantly.

What? I'm not allowed to be critical over a show? This is a discussion and I'm allowed to write what I dislike. Whether I watch the show or not, it's not your concern, I can handle myself. I didn't force you saying that Ash sucks and that you should retire for it.

That's the subjective part. You can think that 5-second scene is more important than the 15 minute development ep, but objectively looking at it through time(15m>5sec), it's not.

If you zero in on just AmourShipping, it's your fault. Not the writers fault , it's just your perception. Objectively, they spend much much more of Serena's time onscreen for development than AmourShipping. Saying 5 second scenes is the entirety of her character development is objectively false when you see that she has literal episodes dedicated to her developing as a character

If Serena just blushed every time the camera was on her and she was just ogling Ash/thinking about how much she loves him, I would be more sympathetic to your cause. But that isn't the case and is any statement that alludes to his is utter BS and should be called out
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
I disagree that barely anyone in SM got character development. I think SM's problem is that they haven't settled on each character's issues unlike in the previous sagas where we were given early on what kind of problems lie within the main Pokegirl/boy. Here, the characters have gags and moments of vulnerability but never to the point where it's explicitly shown it really affects them like Lillie's inability to touch Pokémon. It's kind of like they're sheltered children who don't have to grow outside of their bubble. Actually, Ash's Pokémon are the most developed.

Kiawe doesn't seem to have anything that hinders him outside of him being overly emotional but that aspect is played up for laughs. He's shown to have a tendency to take traditions seriously, believing highly in earning what you get. In the beginning, Kiawe was upset about Ash being given a Z Ring by Tapu Koko without any sort of challenge. I thought he'd still hold a longer grudge against Ash for this but seems like it's since been brushed under the rug. As far as we're shown, he's just a competent fighter who hold onto old values, having no issues addressed. With Mallow, she's shown to always lend a helping hand and despite her minimal episodes, I think she does have a bit of character development. Her episodes are focused on her dream of making the Aina Cafeteria the #1 restaurant in Alola. Even though they aren't well received (hell, I'm the only one who actually enjoys them simply because it's about Mao chan!), those episodes have slowly progressed her goal. As far as shining light onto her internal issues, she's overworked and feels underappreciated. She's always the one to help someone but never someone helping her out, which is why she stormed off to Oranguru's bar to rant about her problems. That issue was quickly solved (and should've lasted longer) but it shows that despite her hardworking, energetic self, she has limits and in my opinion, doesn't know when to ask for help when she needs it. I also feel like the writers are unsure on what to do with her.

I think Lana so far has been the most developed outside of Lillie. She starts off having a simple dream of wanting to explore the ocean inside of one of Popplio's bubbles. Popplio had an issue of keeping the bubble from popping. They both worked up to each day by day through practice and once Popplio learned to keep the bubble balloon, Lana took the opportunity of going against Totem Wishiwashi and meeting I'da and the Seafolk members. Popplio also got stronger and eventually, they received a Z Ring and being able to use Z Moves. And sooner or later, Lana will get a second Pokémon. I remember her getting a bunch of episodes dedicated to her. Remember, she's an action girl and gets underestimated all the time.

I don't think I have to explain Lillie for obvious reasons. Sophocles just recently shared us his goal and even though he doesn't do much, Togedemaru does come in handy with her Biri Biri Chika Chika ability... and he has Charjabug that he does use!
 

Jeal

Well-Known Member
1. I don't actually watch a lot of other anime.

2. Games structure is different from cartoon structure since for the latter the story is the primary appeal. I like to be invested in my protagonists.

I admit some of my qualms are prevalent in MANY other works of fiction, the hero being the everyman/reactor or the plot armoured character that always wins, those are standard obstacles in making a hero, though I've seen several cartoons and works that at least manage to make it more subtle and try to give their protagonist some amount of token appeal, while for a long while the Pokemon anime was becoming mechanical. Even the token times the protagonist LOST at something were often so predictably timed and structured they became another automated part of the formula. A protagonist that does not seem to be effective to the plot as much vice versa just drives apathy for me. I want to care about the guy who pulls through in the end.
There is not difference, both game and anime tell a story, there are games which the player can change the story by his decisions, such as saving a certain character. In Pokemon case, there is no such thing, even worst, the MC has no personality.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
If you have problem with ash then stop watching this show or just watch specials, because he is not going anywhere, as for companions there will always be companions who be shoved aside, clemont was anyways uninteresting character who should have been written off after gym battle. Ash is always going to get more focus so either deal with it or just dont watch the show. He is the biggest reason for this show's success and longevity.
There's actually a ton of people who watch the anime for the traveling companions and never Ash. There's very few of us who watch it for Ash. ^^ I understand and respect @AznKei 's position on it.
 

Jeal

Well-Known Member
Fine I think I've lost anyway. It's a very strange and specific form of subjective annoyance for me anyway, even I'm not quite sure why it annoys me to such extreme levels, but I've toxified a lot of threads with it.
Dude, just enjoy the anime for what it is. I have my problems with the anime too, such as useless fillers taking valuable time from arcs and Team Rocket interrupting important battles, but I try to like the anime for the little that offers. If you demand a masterpiece of an anime like Pokemon, you will just frustrate yourself.
 

Dragalge

"Orange" Magical Girl
As Foghorn Leghorn says, you have to look at the positives! Like me when I try to eat artichokes and think they’re tortellini when stomaching them!

Or how when I initially disliked DP, I loved Paul’s Pokémon because not only were they Pokémon I liked (Ursaring and Honchkrow for example) but I liked how strong most of them were!
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Dude, just enjoy the anime for what it is. I have my problems with the anime too, such as useless fillers taking valuable time from arcs and Team Rocket interrupting important battles, but I try to like the anime for the little that offers. If you demand a masterpiece of an anime like Pokemon, you will just frustrate yourself.

That's why I like SM, it's a simple enough premise and not without it's own flaws, but I do enjoy it. Hell I like they make the more simple things like useless fillers legitimately entertaining most of the time.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I disagree that barely anyone in SM got character development. I think SM's problem is that they haven't settled on each character's issues unlike in the previous sagas where we were given early on what kind of problems lie within the main Pokegirl/boy. Here, the characters have gags and moments of vulnerability but never to the point where it's explicitly shown it really affects them like Lillie's inability to touch Pokémon. It's kind of like they're sheltered children who don't have to grow outside of their bubble. Actually, Ash's Pokémon are the most developed.

Kiawe doesn't seem to have anything that hinders him outside of him being overly emotional but that aspect is played up for laughs. He's shown to have a tendency to take traditions seriously, believing highly in earning what you get. In the beginning, Kiawe was upset about Ash being given a Z Ring by Tapu Koko without any sort of challenge. I thought he'd still hold a longer grudge against Ash for this but seems like it's since been brushed under the rug. As far as we're shown, he's just a competent fighter who hold onto old values, having no issues addressed.

I think Kiawe got subtle but feasible development, in that early on he was a rather prideful character that was dead set in particular method in his ways, we saw how this didn't really work at times like the pancake race where he was stubbornly insistent on dragging Turtonator even when it didn't work. His pride and temper came back to haunt him against Marowak, and since then he's slowly become more accustomed to trying a more versatile approach, which I guess which works with him holding onto old values but knowing when he has to flesh them out and try something different, making Turtonator more flexible and trying to tame the contrasting and more aggressive Marowak.

This could have been done far more broadly of course but for a male companion it was nice to see.

Sophocles has been stagnant though I like that we always get a little more depth from him retroactively, less development and more hidden depths and bit of a character study. Also since he's the only other SM companion to get another Pokemon, we have seen him be slightly bolder using his team in new competitions and situations, even if this is much calmer since Charjabug and Togedemaru don't contrast nearly as much as Kiawe's Pokemon. He fits the 'sheltered kid who isn't quite positive what to do yet' archetype but we do see a bit of him looking at his resources, though I would like to see him raising and expanding them more.
 
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satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
Maybe it would've been better for the thread to be retitled "Positive things about the saga you dislike".

"Pretends to hate SM": I love on how Ash & Pikachu centric SM is.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I admit I may have derailed this thread HORRIBLY. Forgive me.

To keep with the topic, I admit one thing that REALLY stunts development in SM is the lack of team change ups. As said Kiawe and Sophocles feel a bit broadened from getting a secondary because 'adopting' a new member offers more interactions and trials. For all my complaints about Serena, I will without hesitance admit this was something she done wonderfully, three Pokemon all with different personalities she had to mediate and bond with like a family and utilise in her agenda (at least until they demoted poor Sylveon). She didn't need a full team for that, just the minimum amount to make a good dynamic.

None of the SM girls however have got new members to build on their plans and methods, and even Tsareena's two evolutions haven't offered new dynamics for Mallow to concern with. Same for Lana getting a Z Ring.

I remember this being the reason I was eager for Lana to get Dewpider or Lillie to get Sandshrew, not just as a commodity, but because they may have changed things up as a foil for the trainer and their signature and clicked a bigger role and development plot for them.
 
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Zhydra

Master of Chaos!
Fine I think I've lost anyway. It's a very strange and specific form of subjective annoyance for me anyway, even I'm not quite sure why it annoys me to such extreme levels, but I've toxified a lot of threads with it.

It's okay. Once a delicate/ unpopular opinion is stated... everyone loses their minds over it. (No matter how open the poster is about the fact he is posting for kicks. "I wasn't trying to hide anything.")

About your comment about Serena. She is underwhelming to me, but that doesn't mean I hate her. Just that I don't care much for her.

Maybe it would've been better for the thread to be retitled "Positive things about the saga you dislike".

I love on how Ash & Pikachu centric SM is.

Continuing on giving X/Y where credit is due.

Besides Alain's role in making Ash lose the Kalos league. I liked his backstory, I liked how he worked with his Charizard, I liked his dynamic with Mairin, I liked how his plot brings Team Flare into the picture. (I'll curse everything else about the X/Y series... but Team Flare was awesome in the anime.)
Even after the diablous ex machina thing, he still plays a role and makes up for his mistakes. I'll take him over Tobias any day because at Alain has back story!
 
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satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
For all people hate the Kalos league loss, I appreciated it being the one time Ash losing was story segregated and seemed to have any real meaning besides the supposed mandate (besides maybe OS).
I thought it was really good. I was mad at first but it really was good, an intense and heart pounding battle.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I thought it was really good. I was mad at first but it really was good, an intense and heart pounding battle.

It's not just that but the whole thing being build up to the Flare arc and Ash's dynamic with the 'dream smasher' rival. If Ash is designated to lose each series they may as well play on that and give it a meaningful twist on the plot.
 
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