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Cultural assimilation.

Ethan

Banned
How much and how far should we expect immigrants from other countries to confrom to the culture they have moved into? For example, my state Minnesota, has an extremely large Somalian population.

At the middle school my sisters go to, its custom to have a party on Halloween! They've always done it. However this year, a lot of Somalian Muslim parents have complained that they will take their children out of school that day because Halloween is apparently against their religion. The school board issued letters to all children nothing that all Halloween celebrations were CANCELED. Now, my sister has to go to class everyday with a bunch of Halloween decorations in the corner of her classroom that none of the kids can touch now.

Now, my honest opinion before I go into a long rant is that this is,

BULLSHIT.:)

Rant continues below.

Go fuck yourselves Oak Point Intermediate School.


I seriously haven't been this ****** in awhile. I'm not racist, but seriously, you don't move into this country and demand that our culture and traditions conform to YOU. It's BS. My sister has tons of Halloween decorations and stuff that now they can't use and it just sits there in the corner. Might as well cancel Christmas celebrations too! Hell any celebration that isn't YOUR belief.

So, Oak Point intermediate school has essentially ruined the school day of hundreds of children that were excited to have a halloween party to conform and kiss the ass of a small minority of them. I'm sorry but the last time I checked, it was kinda heartless to do that to kids.

If Halloween OMG OFFENDS YOU YEAH? you, you can either

A) Simply take your kid out of school that day. It's not like your missing out on SERIOUS ACADEMICS OH NO when your frigg'n ten years old.

B) Move back to whichever country you came from.

Disclaimer: Is fully aware that this may be interpreted as racist, but strongly recommends that you don't have the balls to mention such because you'll effectively make yourself out to be a pretentious jackass. :D

/rant over

But this is just one example. I'm sure there are hundreds of other assimilation conflicts throughout the country and other countries. Do the Somali's have a case here in the example I brought up? Am I just a ticked off American prick?

I don't mind if you keep your culture. I respect it. Wear your traditional African garb, speak your native language, introduce your traditions into our culture, and I'll be just jolly to learn about you. However, DO NOT waltz in here and ask things to conform to you. It's completely disrespectful and unrealistic.
 
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GaZsTiC

Alternating
As someone who would completely embrace the culture of another country if I lived there, I fully expect immigrants to Country-X-ise themselves. Stuff like this seriously pisses me off as well.

My feelings might just be because I am extremely non-racist, happy-go-lucky, atheist, white, gay, whatever, but I honestly cannot believe that anybody in the world could be so arrogant as to deny somebody different to them a once-in-a-year treat.
 

evolutionrex

The Awesome Atheist
If Halloween OMG OFFENDS YOU YEAH? you, you can either

A) Simply take your kid out of school that day. It's not like your missing out on SERIOUS ACADEMICS OH NO when your frigg'n ten years old.

B) Move back to whichever country you came from.
Or maybe people can wait until they get home for celebrating? Last time i checked, school was for learning not parties. if you don't celebrate it at school, that won't offend people but celebrating will. Most school have a winter break when Christmas comes around, so major holidays with a day of school off won't matter to them. And did you say for them to move back to the country they came from? There is offensively a reason why they moved to America; and they come here in hopes to live a good life and they shouldn't expect people to be against there religion becuase of our first amendment which people for some reason forget.
 

Jb

Tsun in the streets
If they learn my langegue, I could give a damn how many sprituals they have lol.

I just hate whem immagrants move to the states, them act like they are still in their home country, some thing don't fly over here like that.
 

J.T.

ಠ_ಠ
Or maybe people can wait until they get home for celebrating?

Why should they have to? If a Christian child was stopped from praying on their own time in a school, there would be a massive goddamn fuss thrown up, and for good reason. Same kind of thing here.

Last time i checked, school was for learning not parties. if you don't celebrate it at school, that won't offend people but celebrating will. Most school have a winter break when Christmas comes around, so major holidays with a day of school off won't matter to them.

Dunno about you, but every school Halloween party I've gone to included lessons. There was just typical Halloween decorations and festivities, people wore their costumes, and maybe a school dance. It's just a way to make school fun, because people tend to have an easier time at school if they get to do something enjoyable once in a while.

And did you say for them to move back to the country they came from? There is offensively a reason why they moved to America; and they come here in hopes to live a good life and they shouldn't expect people to be against there religion becuase of our first amendment which people for some reason forget.

Nor should immigrants expect a country to bend over backwards to avoid offending them. I don't recall a law anywhere that says anyone has a right to not be offended. It's one thing if you're trying to avoid racism or something, but Halloween is something way too many people enjoy for one group of people to say "THIS OFFENDS US" and prevent them from celebrating the holiday themselves at school, even though there are ways to avoid this while letting the Halloween celebrators maintain their freedom of belief or whatever. Like, uh, pulling the kids from school that day if it bugs them that much. And before you start *****ing about how mean and unfair that is, guess what? Preventing everyone from celebrating Halloween to avoid offending some people is worse.

I'm all for political correctness, but this is almost like it looped around the scale back to the start. Apparently people are so worried about offending one group that in bending over backwards to keep them happy, they inadvertently piss off another group.
 

The_Boss_Giygas

I. F.E.E.L. G.O.O.D.
This is a strange thing for Muslims to do, back in my school days we had some Muslim Somalians and never had any complains on Halloween. As far as other cultures, I don't see a problem with people bringing their cultures with them into this country we aren't a totalitarian system (not yet anyways) but complaining about other's cultures is not something I recommend people do. If you don't want others to complain about your traditions then you shouldn't complain about theirs. In this case those Somalians are wrong, Halloween does not go against their culture nor does it insult it, Halloween is just a holiday adopted by the west from some old pagan holiday and turned into something else, this complain is silly and the school is pretty dumb if they do what the complainers wanted to do. In Public places such as a school, the owners of the place can do as they want with their property.
If it straight out insults your culture, religion, life style, you can complain if you want, but if it's just something you don't believe in then learn to ignore it it's not gonna come after you, not all Christians want to kill Muslims and not all Muslims want to "take over America" those are just paranoid beliefs people obtain and shouldn't stop you from thriving with your own culture, beliefs, and life style in this or any country.
 

The_Panda

恭喜發財
Nice thread Ethan ^_^

I think I've said this before, but I think there is a line between integration and assimilation. People should be allowed to keep their native cultures and beliefs, and this is one of the greatest things one can preserve in my opinion. Besides, multiculturalism adds a level of vibrance and diversity to what could otherwise be a boring and mono-cultural society. Besides I don't think its the right of any particular person or body to dictate that another's culture most conform to a particular standard... and thus demands for "cultural assimilation", where Americans would expect say all Somalian immigrants to suddenly start celebrating Halloween and Thanksgiving, are ridiculous.

At the same time though, we should reasonably expect some level of integration into society. This means an acceptance of core cultural values, the political system, et cetera, of the new country. For example, I find it unacceptable that certain Muslim imams and leaders call for Sharia courts within the Western legal system to allow fundamentalist Muslims to live under such a system. I am actually similarly disgusted with the burqa, niqab et cetera, and I can understand France's attempts to ban it (although I think banning it might be too far). And similarly just as the new country should not demand assimilation of immigrants, immigrants should not try enforce cultural practices (or lack of them) on people already there. Demands for say Halloween not to be celebrated, for example, are just ridiculous.

That being said I think people should be aware of the dynamics of isolationism. Often violent complaints about "Muslims who can't integrate" on talkback radio actually make a lot of things worse. To understand this, let's take the example of Chinese migrants to Australia, the States and Canada up until about 1990. Chinese immigrants to extent had a problem fitting in initially: they didn't speak the language, and given their common experience, they naturally lived together in groups and communities. However, the perception itself that "Chinese people are not integrating and are instead flocking to live together in squalid Chinatowns" actually makes the whole thing worse, because it makes immigrants feel that they're unwanted and despised. The fundamental reason that Chinatowns formed and survived is not that Chinese people inherently couldn't integrate or anything, its that the outside society sadly couldn't accept them. There's no inherent reason why 2nd or 3rd generation migrants should be living in ethnic enclaves (which was unfortunately the case), and it really only happens because of racism. I think it's in everyone's interests that we don't let this sort of thing happen again.

Now excuse me if the following paragraph offends anyone, but I've been thinking about this for a while. It's been at the back of my mind for a while... when regarding Islam in particular, is there something fundamental about the religion that causes the community to isolate itself? I was in China recently, and I noticed that Muslim communities are very distinct and different from the rest of Chinese society (where this is specifically talking about 'Han' Chinese Muslims, or 'Hui', who are classed as a separate ethnic group in China). By contrast, the Christian community goes essentially unnoticed: it's approximately of the same size as the Muslim one in most big cities, but you can't tell the difference between a 'normal' Han Chinese person (who is usually pretty atheistic, a hangover of the Cultural revolution) and a Chinese Christian, unless you get a glimpse of a cross being worn as jewelry. I'm wondering if there is some slight thing about Islam (maybe it's all the cultural requirements fir prayer, clothing, eating et cetera that aren't present in Christianity) that makes it stand out.
 

Profesco

gone gently
Hey Panda! ^_^

If Halloween OMG OFFENDS YOU YEAH? you, you can either

A) Simply take your kid out of school that day. It's not like your missing out on SERIOUS ACADEMICS OH NO when your frigg'n ten years old.

B) Move back to whichever country you came from.

Yeah, the school slipped up on this one. Incidentally, your rant didn't have to seem racist; you're right about a lot. But you don't need to be this angry at the Muslims, just the school. You can't really be angry at them just for being offended or not wanting to participate; it's the school's decision to remove the Halloween celebration, not the Muslim community's. The Muslims actually did prepare to perform option A, didn't they? I.e.:

However this year, a lot of Somalian Muslim parents have complained that they will take their children out of school that day because Halloween is apparently against their religion.

The school is wrong because this country claims religious/spiritual/cultural tolerance to all its citizens, and in removing the Halloween celebration they slighted the freedom of cultural expression of the non-Muslim community in their haste to appear tolerant of the Muslim community. It's as simple as that. In short, they stepped on one group to help the other. The kicker is that it wasn't necessary.

In regards to the larger topic of the thread, this is a simplistic version of what I expect in terms of assimilation/enculturation. We preach freedom of expression and tolerance for all, not just for "the new guys." But we do not need to mandate integration. People should be able to step out of those cultural elements they disagree with as well as practice their own, which others retain the right to step out of similarly.


[I guess I can understand a reason for the school's decision, maybe. They could choose between holding the party events and having a whole group of students miss out on a day of education (while even those remaining were distracted by the celebration), or cancel the party and have all the students retain that day of education. Yes, one day of party favors and orange-frosted cupcakes is not going to ruin the school year, but if you look at it from a practical perspective, at least their decision had commendable reasoning behind it.]
 

The_Panda

恭喜發財
Hey Profesco! ^_^

In regards to the larger topic of the thread, this is a simplistic version of what I expect in terms of assimilation/enculturation. We preach freedom of expression and tolerance for all, not just for "the new guys." But we do not need to mandate integration. People should be able to step out of those cultural elements they disagree with as well as practice their own, which others retain the right to step out of similarly.

I think the crux of the matter though isn't necessarily what people "should be able to do", as you talk about here, but what they should do. I don't think there is much of a debate over what say government should allow, like there is no real way in which the government or any body can force a group to integrate unless you wish to remove individual freedom. Basically it's this: granted that people strictly have the right to withdraw from society and not integrate, should they?
 
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A minority migrant community has the right to have their beliefs upheld, but doing so at the expense of the majority is, to be honest, utter bullshit. If the case in the OP are really offended, they could just withdraw their children from school for the period that the party is taking place, or even just be taken to a separate room; but CANCELING the whole event? That is not good. There should be a balance struck between the majority doing what they can for the minority, and vice versa; in other words, an effort to disrupt as few a number of people doing x which y doesn't like/tolerate as possible.
 

Exodd

Well-Known Member
I think the school was more worried about losing the money they would get from the attendance of the students, and the money they could potentially lose from a lawsuit, than actually offending the students or having them miss out on a day of "education". The school gave in to government pressure.
 

Exodd

Well-Known Member
What government pressure?

The pressure to promote tolerance and political correctness and try to keep as many students in school as possible to make as much money as possible (by taxing parents and such). Also, the pressure from the government and economy that causes worry over jobs and money, which school staff could potentially lose from a lawsuit (though a ridiculous one in that case). The school could also lose funding and support by drawing in negative media attention.

Money is probably what drives a lot of school staff decisions. For example, there was a fire spreading near a school in the city I used to live in. Even though there was smoke around the classrooms, the students werent released until a certain time after noon because they wouldn't have been counted in the attendance until then.
That's probably off topic, though.

Not sure if this fits with the topic well enough, but I saw this article a few days ago about a lawyer who was jailed for refusing to recite the Pledge of Allegiance at a trial.

http://www.aolnews.com/article/refusal-to-pledge-allegiance-lands-lawyer-in-jail/19665605

I think that is an example of a ridiculous expectation of someone to conform to a not so important aspect of a culture despite personal beliefs.
 

natie

Mr. F
I fully agree with you.

In Belgium (at least where I live), the fairly small amount of immigrants keeps saying we (the 'natives'), are racist, just because we deny them the right to do as they please. The minor things they forget here are that they moved from somewhere else, and this is a DIFFERENT ****ING COUNTRY, also, we deny that right to anyone, not just them. Sadly they do no seem to realise that and only make themselves look like assholes.

I'm also pretty sure they would do the exact same thing to people that move to whichever countries they're from.

Then again, most of the immigrants are already outcasts from their own country, because they're so chavy they don't want them there either.

Oh well.
 

Tropios

':o Me is stinky??'
if they move to another country, they have to adapt to that country, not change the countries habits and rules.

if we did that in their country, we would lose our heads.
 

Tyrant Tar

Well-Known Member
when regarding Islam in particular, is there something fundamental about the religion that causes the community to isolate itself? I was in China recently, and I noticed that Muslim communities are very distinct and different from the rest of Chinese society.

I think this is a (rather ironically) similar scenario to the "Chinese people not integrating and instead flocking to live together in squalid Chinatowns." It certainly doesn't help that there are "Ground Zero Mosques", attempted banning of burqas, people blaming Islam for terrorism, and this case where public places are catering to Muslim demands regardless of what the majority thinks (and I'm sure this isn't the only time this has happened).
 

CSolarstorm

New spicy version
I'm sorry to hear that happened at your sister's school. You're not in the wrong. Pretty much everyone's said everything I thought about it already. It's mostly the messed up political perspective at fault here.

Like JT said, this is so "politically correct" that it's almost back to square one of being incorrect. We need to get over this idea that the only way a minority can get ahead is at the expense of the majority. This "it's either us or them" sentiment, from either side, is a symptom of a paradigm that's just wrong.

That being said, I can also see it from the school's point of view, that they needed attendance that day, probably for funding, so if there were a sizable amount of parents threatening to withdraw their kids from school that day, even if it wasn't an actual protest against the school's practices, it would have hurt them the same way as a financial boycott. So in a way, systematically, you could blame the Muslim parents because their actions caused it. But what else were they supposed to do? They were only trying to exercise their freedom of religion by adhering to its tenants by not exposing their children to a pagan celebration. You can't fault them for exercising the same freedom of expression that cost your sister's school theirs. And ultimately, regardless of whether or not there would be an uproar over a Christian being denied the right to pray in school, most U.S. government/government funded facilities are already exercising religious neutrality so as not to offend any religion in particular.

Another thing you could ask, is why the school is so worried about their students, academically, if they miss a single day. Not wanting their students to miss a day could be a sign of their insecurity that their lessons aren't succeeding. How is academic performance at that school? It could be higher standards, or schools trying to compensate for each other's ineffectiveness, that take up more time and make schools nervous to grab at every minute and day possible to teach their students.
 

7 tyranitars

Well-Known Member
little advice for your sister Ethan make her and some friends decorate the school anyway (will be hard to do that with all the teachers) but atleast they won't take a tradition away

for me it is adabt or gtfo they are guest ffs it's not like they should make the rules sure they can have their traditions but not at the cost of the majoritity like I said they are a guest they should act like a guest.
 

CSolarstorm

New spicy version
for me it is adabt or gtfo they are guest ffs it's not like they should make the rules sure they can have their traditions but not at the cost of the majoritity like I said they are a guest they should act like a guest.

Now wait a second, I agree with you, but why are you calling legitimate citizens that are properly sending their children to school "guests"? They pay taxes, they live there, they aren't really "guests".

There's a fine line between opposing discrimination on one group and imposing on another as a consequence, we shouldn't fall into the same trap the school did.
 
I Think it is the schools fualt.

My elementary school called our Halloween celebrations "Fall Festivals" so they wouldn't get in trouble.

And some of you guys sound so damn racist......when will you bigots learn those people want to live here because its better than living where they came from, there is a war going on there remember?
 
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