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Dark and Ghost - Switched?

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What I mean is that it's always irritated me to no extent to see dark treated as a special attack: doing well on pokemon with high defence, doing poorly when used with high-attack low-special attackers... virtually all dark attacks involve direct strikes and physical attacks. Pretty much all dark pokemon have a high attack that is wasted on their type, and alot of pokemon with high attack learn dark moves that are useless to them. If a special type that's good against psychic is needed, ghost attacks seem far more appropriate as special attacks. Switching ghost and dark as special and non-special would be as much needed a change as making poison non-special. Is this feasible? Likely? A good idea? How would it work? Add comments or ideas.
 

Tazzler

Well-Known Member
Gengar getting STAB of 130 special attack? Pokemon like medicham would lose shadow ball's usability. It would screw up a lot of physical pokemon.
 

Eszett

one love
Urgh, I've voiced my rationale already for why it should stay the same, but I shall reiterate:

Eszett said:
I would lament for days on end if that ever happened. Manyula would be screwed from ever being a special sweeper, and many Normal sweepers/Medicham would lose an immensely useful move from their movesets.

Also, by my rationale Dark and Ghost are perfectly fine as special and physical types, respectively. I say this because Dark (or should I say Evil) resprents a state of mind to be malicious. While it mainly manifests itself in the form of contact attacking, there are such Dark-type support moves such as Taunt and Torment that aptly describe this attitude of malice. Ghost, however, should remain a physical type since its constituents possess the physical traits of a ghost. Being a Ghost type is like being a Normal type, except your body is merely composed of a different material/on a different plane/what-have-you.

More generally, there's a quick fix for alleviating this issue: APPROPRIATE THEIR STATS BETTER. If they make more Dark types like Houndoom and more Ghost types like Banette, we will not need to worry about this problem.

Also, I would like to add that the current trend in Ghosts points towards more physical orientation. I guess everyone cares too much about Gengar and doesn't realize that practically every other Ghost not affiliated with the grinchy shadow has a higher Attack than Special Attack. Moreover, nearly all of these physically oriented Ghosts are from the newest generation. I can only say this is an omen for more physically-oriented Ghosts.
 

PUrEHearT

Hyper Coordinator
but do we see Special Orineted Dark Types? only Houndoom for all i know...

Yes the above poster is right about the new Ghost Types having a higher attack than SP Attack

Medicham's typing is Fighting/Psychic so no STAB on shadow ball. Its massive attack does the EXTREME damage
 
My biggest beef was with bite/crunch being special on high attack pokemon, and dark pokemon having high attack/low special. I guess if they made ghosts have better attack and dark have better special that would be alot better, but unless they change the existing pokemons stats, I wouldn't go for it... And I can see how ghost can work as a non-special (lick, shadow ball), and how it is more the fact that they are ghosts that determines the attack's type, but alot of the moves like grudge, nightmare, and nightshade seem alot more like special. In the end, the only moves that really matter being special or non-special are attacking moves, so while some dark moves may seem to have special qualities, all the attacking ones are physical attacks, and I can't see how a pokemon's special stat would affect their power. This is just my opinion though, I would like them to change it for the next series but their are valid arguments for keeping it the same.

intergalactic platypus said:
actually that would make sense. and poison isnt special btw. its closer to likely then most suggestions of its kind

I thought I heard somewhere that poison was originally special, and was changed for GSC? Perhaps not, I never really used poison attacks in those games enough to notice. Had anyone else heard of this?

Also, if they came up with a good dark TM/move that is learnable by alot of pokemon, not having shadow ball as physical wouldn't be a problem, and shadow ball would be available to special sweepers.
 
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Kveran

Pinin' for the fjord
Why does it need to be switched at all? Why not just make Dark physical and leave Ghost the way it is?

But as Eszett said, I think the real problem is not the types but the allocation of stats. Many of the Dark types got screwed over. The first one that comes to mind is Absol- great attack, lackluster everything else... wouldn't be so bad if he had his attack and sp. attack stats switched and a higher speed because then he would end up something like the Dark Aerodactyl. But no...
 

Eszett

one love
feebas_factor said:
I guess if they made ghosts have better attack and dark have better special that would be alot better
Did you even read my post? ALL of the Hoenn Ghosts have a higher Attack than Special Attack. Also, Dark is getting there too; all of the Darks in Hoenn have higher Special attacks than their Johto relatives...while before you just had Houndoom and Tyranitar, check out Crawdaunt, Sharpedo, Shiftry, and Cacturne. They might not be quite there yet (well, Cacturne is but his Dark movepool is abysmal), but all of their Special Attacks are at least base 90, and as I mentioned Cacturne is well above that. Should this trend continue into the next generation I can foresee the allocation of stats making a full switch to Special Attack by the fourth generation.

Also, if they came up with a good dark TM/move that is learnable by alot of pokemon, not having shadow ball as physical wouldn't be a problem, and shadow ball would be available to special sweepers.
Well, I made up a move called UV Beam a while ago, but that was before I learned that the Dark type actually equated to the Evil type in Japan. Perhaps a 95 base Dark move called Masquerade might work...I like that name.
 

jellsprout

Well-Known Member
The reason why Ghost is physical and Dark special, is because in R/B/Y, the only Ghost attacking move was Lick. Licking is clearly physical.
In G/S/C, there already was one physical type more then special without Steel and Dark. Since Steel obviously physical is, Dark had to be special. If it weren't, there would be 7 special attacks and 10 physical.

Like explained earlier, it isn't the Dark and Ghost types that make a difference, but the stats of the pokemon themself.
 
S

smiley.

Guest
Everything would get messed if this happened in D/P, because stats would have to change on the trade from RSEFRLG to DP. It would mess up loads of movesets aswell.
 
True as it is that many dark types are getting better special attack, there is in fact only one evolutionary line of dark pokemon with special attack better than attack. This stat placement often means they are left with low defences and hp (compared to other pokemon with the same stat total). Although this may have been the intended trend for dark pokemon, I'm just saying they would have benefitted alot more from having that attack stat in other places. And dark pokemon ONLY have good special when their second type requires it (save Tyrannitar). And even if the next generation consists entirely of ghosts with high attack and darks with high special, what does that do for the already existing pokemon? Just leave them to be forgotten due to their poor type-stat matchup?

As for why ghost would have to be special, I just think that psychic needs at least one special weakness - other wise, high-defence psychic might have too much of an advantage (hmm, reminds of another type with only weaknesses of one kind). And why would lick be anymore physical than crunch? Licking something really wouldn't do much damage unless there was something more to it then that, something special... while crunching and biting basically relies on the size of your teeth and the strength of your jaws.

The stats would only have to change in trade if the types were kept the same and the stats of old pokemon were changed to match them. Otherwise there would be no problem. And almost no physical movesets would be screwed up if they simply came up with a good dark move/tm (like "masquerade"), because that would simply be used instead of shadow ball! As for special... some pokemon might lose their crunching edge, but others would gain the power of shadow ball. To tell the truth, there are problems as it is, and problems nomatter how you try to solve these, but I like the solution of switching ghost and dark the best.
 
C

Carpetted!

Guest
Cacturne's special Atk. is the same as his Atk. though, I would know
 

Eszett

one love
feebas_factor said:
True as it is that many dark types are getting better special attack, there is in fact only one evolutionary line of dark pokemon with special attack better than attack. This stat placement often means they are left with low defences and hp (compared to other pokemon with the same stat total). Although this may have been the intended trend for dark pokemon, I'm just saying they would have benefitted alot more from having that attack stat in other places.
There's a generation to fix that, not to mention this generation touts that it will grant many Pokemon with much-needed evolutions. No hope is lost for these forgotten warriors.

And dark pokemon ONLY have good special when their second type requires it (save Tyrannitar).
Yet Absol gets Calm Mind. Huh.

And even if the next generation consists entirely of ghosts with high attack and darks with high special, what does that do for the already existing pokemon? Just leave them to be forgotten due to their poor type-stat matchup?
As evidenced by Sneasel, these Pokemon can improve themselves. Plus not every Dark type was meant to be a sweeper - just take a look at Umbreon.

Also, do you only look out for the fighting welfare of the Darks? Many Ghosts will not be able to amount to their former prowess if this switch is made.

As for why ghost would have to be special, I just think that psychic needs at least one special weakness - other wise, high-defence psychic might have too much of an advantage (hmm, reminds of another type with only weaknesses of one kind).
And how many Psychics that don't have another type have high Defense? ;[

And why would lick be anymore physical than crunch? Licking something really wouldn't do much damage unless there was something more to it then that, something special... while crunching and biting basically relies on the size of your teeth and the strength of your jaws.
The matter is not the delivery of the moves, it is the inherent nature of the type. Ghosts could be deemed as comprising of their own material, whereas Dark represents an abstract state of mind. It may express itself through biting and other mechanisms (psh, that's the only contact means of delivery, anyway); but the damage dealt by these underhanded methods of attack depends and should depends entirely on how willing the assailant is to use these tactics, i.e. the strength of their state of mind. Ghosts merely hurl their own material at their foes, while Darks are driven by their motives to choose their medium of pain.

The stats would only have to change in trade if the types were kept the same and the stats of old pokemon were changed to match them. Otherwise there would be no problem.
And almost no physical movesets would be screwed up if they simply came up with a good dark move/tm (like "masquerade"), because that would simply be used instead of shadow ball!
That depends entirely on whether the designers bequeath the Shadow Ballers this move. The Pokemon that use Shadow Ball in their physical movesets can, you know, use the move for Ghost damage; why bother taking a risky endeavor to better the Dark types of yore when we can simply allocate their stats better and give these Pokemon evolutions?

As for special... some pokemon might lose their crunching edge, but others would gain the power of shadow ball. To tell the truth, there are problems as it is, and problems nomatter how you try to solve these, but I like the solution of switching ghost and dark the best.
I have clearly explained to you that this motion is simply too dicey to pursue. It can be alleviated in other ways, and considering that most Dark types do have another Special type I feel that the route of simply relocating their stats would do them much better in the long run than altering the foundations of their type.
 
A

Argoxoz Crucificus

Guest
While Dark moves do seem to be more physically oriented and ghost moves more special-oriented, it would screw up a lot of sets and Pokemon, so I believe we should keep the value they use in the third and fourth generations the same.
 

Naraku_Diabolos

DNC20/NIN10
Eszett does know what he's talking about, and by the way he's explaining things upon the essence of Dark and Ghost types, he's actually giving great facts that sum up your questions.
 
Naraku_Diabolos said:
Eszett does know what he's talking about, and by the way he's explaining things upon the essence of Dark and Ghost types, he's actually giving great facts that sum up your questions.

Yeh, actually he is. I'm starting to be persuaded that it might be easier just to leave them as is, but I'd still like to pursue the matter a bit further.

Eszett said:
As evidenced by Sneasel, these Pokemon can improve themselves. Plus not every Dark type was meant to be a sweeper - just take a look at Umbreon.

Also, do you only look out for the fighting welfare of the Darks? Many Ghosts will not be able to amount to their former prowess if this switch is made.

I'd like to know what happened with Sneasal to improve itself, because that was the most important thing that I disliked about just having different stats in the next generation. And umbreon's an exception, as most dark types actually have pretty poor hp, defence/special defence (when both your attack stats are that high, your other stats get left behind). For ghosts, shedninja and bannette would lose the most, but duskull, gengar (and savleye) have decent special attack compared to their attack.

Eszett said:
The matter is not the delivery of the moves, it is the inherent nature of the type. Ghosts could be deemed as comprising of their own material, whereas Dark represents an abstract state of mind. It may express itself through biting and other mechanisms (psh, that's the only contact means of delivery, anyway); but the damage dealt by these underhanded methods of attack depends and should depends entirely on how willing the assailant is to use these tactics, i.e. the strength of their state of mind. Ghosts merely hurl their own material at their foes, while Darks are driven by their motives to choose their medium of pain.

Hmmm... yes, an explanation of dark and ghost that sorta makes sense... what's with shadow ball though? If they do leave dark, though, I seriously hope they come up with a normal type biting move for high attack pokemon.

Eszett said:
Yet Absol gets Calm Mind. Huh.

Whether a TM can be learned by a pokemon isn't dependant on whether in would be useful for them. Absol just happens to be the sort of pokemon that would be able to learn calm mind (I at first thought it was a psychic pokemon).

Nomatter what, I kinda would like to see a better dark TM created, though.

Another Fan said:
Eh. I think it is fine. All pokemon, moves and types are well thought out. And if they will change anything there will always be complainers.

...psychic in the first series. Poison.
 

Eszett

one love
Urgh, I haven't been here in a while.
feebas_factor said:
I'd like to know what happened with Sneasal to improve itself, because that was the most important thing that I disliked about just having different stats in the next generation.
I was referring to the fact that it's getting an evolution in the next generation. Same typing, better stats. We don't know what those stats are, but we know that it can only improve itself. Sorry that I didn't make that clear.

And umbreon's an exception, as most dark types actually have pretty poor hp, defence/special defence (when both your attack stats are that high, your other stats get left behind).
You're accurate in regards to the other Dark types, but I was emphasizing that Umbreon shows that a type doesn't need to conform to a specific standard. It's like how Claydol is not your typical Psychic type.

For ghosts, shedninja and bannette would lose the most, but duskull, gengar (and savleye) have decent special attack compared to their attack.
It's a pity nobody uses Duskull though. Its relative lack of loss doesn't warrant the outstanding losses the other Ghosts would face should the switch be made.

Also, Sableye has a more usable physical movepool than its special movepool on the account of STAB and simply more powerful moves.

Hmmm... yes, an explanation of dark and ghost that sorta makes sense... what's with shadow ball though? If they do leave dark, though, I seriously hope they come up with a normal type biting move for high attack pokemon.
Shadow Ball is merely taking a part of one's material and using it as a weapon. Just as a Ghost uses its gaseous material to attack, a Normal type uses its "plain ol' body" to attack. And while I would like to see more kniving Dark moves that don't depend on whether the Pokemon has a jaw and teeth or not (i.e. something that every Dark Pokemon can learn), I wouldn't mind seeing a more standard teething move for Normal types.

Whether a TM can be learned by a pokemon isn't dependant on whether in would be useful for them. Absol just happens to be the sort of pokemon that would be able to learn calm mind (I at first thought it was a psychic pokemon).

Nomatter what, I kinda would like to see a better dark TM created, though.
Rhydon doesn't seem at all suited to using Surf, yet somehow it learns it. A smattering of examples of this exist in the Pokemon world, but this one strikes me as the poignant. However, Absol gets a rather impressive special movepool to complement his learning of Calm Mind as well, while its physical movepool consists mainly of inaccurate or underpowered moves.

I would certainly like to see an actual Dark TM that plenty of Pokemon could actually learn.
 
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D

DemonScythe

Guest
no no thats what makes the dark types unique, their stats and movepools
are all revolved in an unprepared manner, alining them with special would simply be a ripoff of the sweeping electric type. To me that would contribute no interest to the metagame.

As for the making ghost special and dark physical is wrong beyond measures used so much of an example, Medicham would do terrible with a physical dark attack since its movesets depend so much of Fighting + Ghost which nothing resists but with Dark in its place things like Heracross will comeover for fun everytime and cham would need a substitute like Rockslide in all of his movesets and that would ruin that pokes potential, plus there is also the fact that cham can't even learn a decent dark move like snorlax can't learn any dark moves so it depends on ghost alot and relying on its hidden power would obliterate players ingame..
 
whoops, I almost forgot about this thread.

um, let's see now...

I acknowledge the point that switching dark and ghost would be, moveset wise, a bad idea. Most likely, there would be quite a few pokemon who would lose shadowball and have nothing to replace it. Though I hardly think one pokemon alone, like medicham, is important enough to require changing something (parasect, grrr...) or not changing it, I guess there are others that would suffer alot from this change as well. (Do any in particular spring to mind?)

I'm not sure what you mean by dark types being unique... what seems wrong to me is pokemon's stats not matching their type and movepool at all.

Finally, I do understand and see how ghost is a physical type - but I still see major problems to how dark is special.

Eszett said:
The matter is not the delivery of the moves, it is the inherent nature of the type. Ghosts could be deemed as comprising of their own material, whereas Dark represents an abstract state of mind. It may express itself through biting and other mechanisms (psh, that's the only contact means of delivery, anyway); but the damage dealt by these underhanded methods of attack depends and should depends entirely on how willing the assailant is to use these tactics, i.e. the strength of their state of mind. Ghosts merely hurl their own material at their foes, while Darks are driven by their motives to choose their medium of pain.

coming back to this explanation; if the reason dark moves are special based is because their damage is based on how wiilling the pokemon is to use these sneaky and underhanded tactics, does that mean that all pokemon with high special attack are very sneaky or something? That they're more willing and motivated to use whatever moves? It would seem alot more likely that the extra power from being devious and sneaky enough to use these moves comes from being a dark type - in other words, willingness and motivation to use these tactics is represented by dark STAB. In fact, dark moves bite and crunch aren't even particularly sneaky or reliant on strong motivation to use them. And so the question remains: why are dark moves special? What is the link between a pokemon's special attack, whatever that is, and dark moves?
 
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